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[quote][quote][quote][quote] so are you questioning Allah's motives?[/quote] Definitely not. But, if you insist that daraba means to seperate here, than my question is to you why did Allah used the word which has direct and well know meaning of "to beat" Just recall what you have writter earlien "[green]1. The Qur’an is complete and detailed for our guidance."[/green] If what you have said is correct, if Quran is complete and detailed than we have to agree that, Allah has give permission to beat their wives in certain circumstances, and limit of beating is not set. He can beat the wife as much as he wish, but not to her death. If you say daraba means to seperate, than Quran is incomplete and not in detail. That's my point[/quote][/quote] How does the fact that dzaraba in this context means separate make the qur’an incomplete? You obviously have no clue that the meaning of a word which has a number of meanings is DEFINED BY THE CONTEXT!!! What I said was that specifically because of the fact that Allah does not say how much a woman could be beaten in the Quran, then by definition the word must have another meaning which does not require further elaboration. This easily follows from the understanding that the Qur’an is complete. So no we don’t have to agree that Allah has allowed wife beating. [quote][quote][quote]How about this, Allah knew that some men would ascribe to the prophet that this word should be understood as beating as they followed other than the Qur'an.[/quote] Even if we don't follow hadith, it was direct meaning of the word. Actually, hadith came to rescue the women and set a limit for beating[/quote][/quote] So misguided muslims will take the route that Muhammad worshipping people like you take, namely, Muhammad was more merciful than Allah so he looked down upon wife beating and clarified it because Allah was not able to… Disgusting, but this is essentially the hadithi position. [quote]And so he made it as a test for people like you to see what they follow.[/quote]Ok, if a person follows the direct meaning of the word daraba he fails the test and if a person follow indirect meaning discovered by marwan in 20th century he passes the test. The very fact that daraba carries different meaning that you have mentioned, only proves that we require another authentic source to explain Quran. Otherwise, everyone would take whatever meaning they want and will have all different religions in the name of Islam[/quote] It is not a 20th century meaning, its a meaning that was always there, because the words were always there. So now for your education on how to analyse a text without lies written by stupid arabs guiding your thinking. 4:34 Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) send away/separate from them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all). الرِّجَالُ قَوَّامُونَ عَلَى النِّسَاء بِمَا فَضَّلَ اللّهُ بَعْضَهُمْ عَلَى بَعْضٍ وَبِمَا أَنفَقُواْ مِنْ أَمْوَالِهِمْ فَالصَّالِحَاتُ قَانِتَاتٌ حَافِظَاتٌ لِّلْغَيْبِ بِمَا حَفِظَ اللّهُ وَاللاَّتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلاَ تَبْغُواْ عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلاً إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (4:34) 4:35 If ye fear a breach between them twain (divorce), appoint (two) arbiters, one from his family, and the other from hers; if they wish for peace, Allah will cause their reconciliation: For Allah hath full knowledge, and is acquainted with all things. وَإِنْ خِفْتُمْ شِقَاقَ بَيْنِهِمَا فَابْعَثُواْ حَكَمًا مِّنْ أَهْلِهِ وَحَكَمًا مِّنْ أَهْلِهَا إِن يُرِيدَا إِصْلاَحًا يُوَفِّقِ اللّهُ بَيْنَهُمَا إِنَّ اللّهَ كَانَ عَلِيمًا خَبِيرًا (4:35) Lets first outline the context: - 1. The husband fears nushuz, disloyalty, ill-conduct etc… from his wife. 2. Allah is advising him what he should to bring his wife back in line. a. Talk to her b. Don’t share her bed (no sexual intercourse etc…) c. Separate from her/send her away 3. Then in the next ayah Allah tells the family of such a couple that if they fear that the two will (divorce) split (at or after step 3) then they should intervene as Allah commands. So the context is reconciliation and the avoidance of divorce if possible. The Qur’anic context is: - “And among His signs is that He created mates for you from yourselves that you may find comfort and repose in them, and He put between you love and compassion; most surely there are signs in this for a people who reflect.” (30:21) A Qur’anic guideline for interpretation: - "A. L. R. These are the verses of a Book,- and a Qur'an that makes things clear. " (15:1) "We have not instructed the (Prophet) in Poetry, nor is it meet for him: this is no less than a Message and a Qur'an making things clear: " (36:69) The Qur’an makes things clear. “And He it is Who has made the stars for you that you might follow the right way thereby in the darkness of the land and the sea; truly We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.” (6:97) “And He it is Who hath produced you from a single being, and (hath given you) a habitation and a repository. We have detailed Our revelations for a people who have understanding.” (6:98) “This is the way of thy Lord, leading straight: We have detailed the signs for those who receive admonition.” (6:126) “Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who reflect” (10:24) “Thus do We make the revelations detailed for a people who use their reason” (30:28) The Qur’an is detailed, for those who think and reflect. “Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book, which is recited to them? Most surely there is a mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe” (29:51) The Qur’an is sufficient for us Muslims. Now given that the Qur’an is complete, sufficient and detailed for our guidance, it is not logical to translate a word in a manner which needs further clarification (beat how much? Break bones and tear skin? Lightly?) which implies that the Qur’an is not detailed or sufficient, when it can be logically translated in a manner (separate from her/ send her away) which requires no further detail and which is inline with Allah’s claim that his revelation is detailed and complete. This of course is hard for people like you to grasp as you so freely practice kufr with regard to Allah’s statements above relating to the completeness of the Qur’an. You have no problem accepting the implication that the Qur’an is an obscure and incomplete text that needs hadith to explain it. Now just for more information, lets look at some of the other meanings that I quoted from the dictionary: - To heal, This makes no sense in the context strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, propound, set forth, compare, liken, These makes no sense in the context. go, make a journey, travel, seek a way, march on, leave for sake, From these we get the meaning of separation/sending away. This makes sense mix, This makes no sense in the context. avoid, This tactic was used in step two and so makes no sense to again come in step three. take away, prevent, take away thing (with 'an). This makes no sense in the context, take away what? Prevent what? put a cover, shut, This makes no sense in the context mention, state, This makes no sense in the context set, impose, This makes no sense in the context and it raises the question: Set or impose what? fight, strike, This is the meaning I argue against for the reason mentioned earlier. traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, This makes no sense in the context …. So we see, that when we take a logical approach, accepting the Qur’an as complete and detailed, you CANNOT just pick and choose whatever meaning you like. You can keep your hadith, The Qur’an is sufficient for me. “Is it not enough for them that We have revealed to you the Book, which is recited to them? Most surely there is a mercy in this and a reminder for a people who believe” (29:51) Salaam I'll respond to the other stuff in a number of days inshallah. Edited by: marwan on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:50 PM Edited by: marwan on Wednesday, November 29, 2006 9:57 PM[/quote]
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