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[quote]Salaam aboosait [quote] At the outset I would advice you to refer to some dictionary or encyclopedia to know the meaning of ‘hadith’ and then learn how this word is used in Arabic under different contexts. [/quote] Nice one. Cleverly sidestepped the question. Simple question when you, Bukhari or an other use the word hadith what does it mean and when the same word is mentioned in the Quran what do you think it means. [quote] An-Nahl [16:98] فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ Faitha qarata alqurana faistaAAith biAllahi mina alshshaytani alrrajeemi 16:98 When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one. إِنَّمَا يَأْمُرُكُمْ بِالسُّوءِ وَالْفَحْشَاء وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ [/quote] [quote] [Shaitân (Satan)] commands you only what is evil and Fahshâ (sinful), and that you should say against Allâh what you know not. (Al-Baqarah 2:169 [/quote]) & the relevance to this topic regarding hadith is? [quote] Hadith are a source for Islamic history and biography. [/quote] Unfortunately not very good one because amongst other things they contradict each other. In my understanding contradiction naturally means a lie. 2ndly they the portray the man to whom the Quran was revealed as a peadophile, sexual pervert and cruel man and you still accept them as being accurate? [quote] The Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims. [/quote] CORRECT. [quote] However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Quranic rules. [/quote] CORRECT AGIAN.. However if your point is that Laws not in the Quran can be found in Hadith....is absolutely 100% incorrect because there are zillions of laws that are required in our every day existance which are not covered by hadith or the Qurn speCifically. sO LETS PUT THIS SILLY POINT THAT HADITH SOMEHOW COVER ALL THE RULE & REGULATION NOT COVERED BY THE QURAN. However your prejudices again distort your logic by below: [quote] [quote] We can look at the way of life, or sunnah, of Muhammad (s.a.w.) and his companions to know how he (s.a.w) or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion a particular verse was revealed and discover what to imitate and what to avoid. [/quote] Scholars classify hadith as: • What Muhammad said (قول) (qawl) • What Muhammad did (فعل) (fi'l) • What Muhammad approved (تقرير) (taqrir) in others' actions There are also hadith relating to the words and deeds of the companions, but they may not have the same weight as those about Muhammad. Accounts of early Islam are also to be found in: • sira (stories, especially biographies of Muhammad) • tafsir (commentary on the Qur'an) • fiqh (juristic reasoning) [/quote] You are very fond of your SELF SELECTED SHOLARS that is your choice. They have no divine or religious merit they are simply people of differnt ability and integrity and their quotes understanding in no way prove or disprove a particular point. If you wish to discuss merits of Islam then I suggest you stick to the Quran and critically analyse and discuss it. Otherwise the whole discussion become meaningless. [quote] Sura 7:157 (Yusuf Ali translation):“Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.” [/quote] If you had any knowldge of the Quran you would know that Allah forbade Mohd to teach anything other than the Quran...with that knowldge how can then you not see that God is referring to what is forbidden, evil, lawful etc as quoted in the Quran. Of course people follow thier leader regarding the Laws that are [b]established[/b]Not how leader washes himself, eats drinks or conducts his personal life. You and the hadith followers fail to grasp this very simple point. [quote] NOW READ ON AND SEE HOW THE WORD 'HADEWETH' IS USED UNDER DIFFERENT CONTEXTS IN THE QUR'AN [/quote] Ok here we go: فَلْيَأْتُوا[b] بِحَدِيثٍ[/b] مِّثْلِهِ إِن كَانُوا صَادِقِينَ Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful. (At-Tur 52:34) Interesting you choose not to leave the word hadith in its original form (do you pschological problem with this word when mentioned in the Quran). Even accepting your translation here..IS GOD HERE NOT FORBIDDING YOU TO PRODUCE ANOTHER RECITAL OTHER THAN THE Quran. Now tell me where does it allow for your version of the hadith? i.e why are you guys quoting another recital, hadith or whateevr you want to call it....My firend i suggest you read the sura you have quoted very carefully. [quote] اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ [b]الْحَدِيثِ [/b] كِتَابًا مُّتَشَابِهًا مَّثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاء وَمَن يُضْلِلْ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ Allâh has sent down the best [b]statement[/b], a Book (this Qur'ân), [/quote] Intersting you changed it to statement..I mean why not leave it in its original form...Anyhow despite this, excellent no disagreement here. [quote] [b]its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-repeated.[/b] The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it (when they recite it or hear it). Then their skin and their heart soften to the remembrance of Allâh. That is the guidance of Allâh. He Guides therewith whom He pleases and whomever Allâh sends astray, for him there is no guide. (Az-Zumar 39:23) [/quote] If you study the Quran that statement is completely unambiguous and does [b]not[/b] in any way justify existance of non Quranic recitals (hadith) that you choose to follow. [quote] وَهَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى And has there come to you the story of Mûsa (Moses)? (Ta-Ha 20:9) [/quote] Ok! [quote] هَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ ضَيْفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْمُكْرَمِينَ Has the story reached you, of the honoured guests [three angels; Jibrael (Gabriel) along with another two] of Ibrahîm (Abraham)? (Adh-Dhariyat 51:24) [/quote] Ok! [quote] هَلْ أتَاكَ حَدِيثُمُوسَى Has there come to you the story of Mûsa (Moses)? (An-Nazi'at 79:15) [/quote] [quote] فَلَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ عَلَى آثَارِهِمْ إِن لَّمْ يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ أَسَفً [/quote]ا So the story of Moses ok. [quote] Perhaps, you, would kill yourself (O Muhammad SAW) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because they believe not in this narration (the Qur'ân). (Al-Kahf 18:6) [/quote [quote] ]أَفَمِنْ هَذَا الْحَدِيثِ تَعْجَبُونَ [/quote] Ok! Waiting fot your point. [quote] Do you then wonder at this recital (the Qur'ân)? (An-Najm 53:59) [/quote] [quote] أَفَبِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ أَنتُم مُّدْهِنُونَ [/quote] This recital, hadith etc referring to the Quran. Yes well Ok! [quote] Is it such a talk (this Qur'an) that you (disbelievers) deny? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:81) [/quote] No one here is denying the Quran...but you are not suggesting that it equates to Bhkhari et al Hadith are you? Because what you have provide above is very clear & refers to Quran only. [quote] فَذَرْنِي وَمَن يُكَذِّبُبِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ Then leave Me Alone with such as belie this Qur'ân. We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not. (Al-Qalam 68:44) [/quote] Ok fine! [quote] فَبِأَيِّ [b]حَدِيثٍ[/b] بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ Then in what [b]statement [/b] after this (the Qur'ân) will they believe? (Al-Mursalat 77:50) [/quote] Is the above not crystal clear not to believe in any statement after the Quran. Even after this what possible reason do you have foR believing any statement(s) other than the Quran. [quote] أَوَلَمْ يَنظُرُواْ فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ مِن شَيْءٍ وَأَنْ عَسَى أَن يَكُونَ قَدِ اقْتَرَبَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things that Allâh has created, and that it may be that the end of their lives is near. [b]In what message after this will they then believe[/b]? (Al-A'raf 7:185) [/quote] YET ANOTHER SURA YOU HAVE QUOTED WHICH CONTRADICTS YOUR VIEW POINT. IS ALLAH NOT AGAIN VERY CLEAR IN FORBIDDING YOU TO BELIEVE IN ANY MESSAGE OTHER THAN THE QURAN. [b]I SUGGEST YOU READ THE THESE TWO SURAS(QUOTED BY YOU) AGAIN[/b] [quote] اللّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ لَيَجْمَعَنَّكُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللّهِ حَدِيثًا Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Surely, He will gather you together on the Day of Resurrection about which there is no doubt. [b]And who is truer in statement than Allâh? [/b] (An-Nisa 4:87) [/quote] Again agreed...No ONE CAN PRODUCE TRUER STATEMENT THAN ALLAH...Above does not say Bukhari et al can produce statement like Allah does it. I suggest you read what you have posted again. [quote] تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. [b]Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe?[/b] (Al-Jathiyah 45:6) [/quote] Yet again Allah is forbidding to believe in any speech (recital, hadith or what ever meaning you choose to give) other than the recital, speech etc of the Quran. Now tell me in the light of the above suras why do you still continue to believe in speeches outside the Quran or do you not believe what the Quran is telling you/ [quote] Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.[] (Yusuf 12:111) وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُوًا أُولَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ [/quote] Yes of course- Torah & Injeel mentioned by name...where are Bukhari et al mentioned above. [quote] And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire). (Luqman 31:6) [/quote] Please dont become confused. Quran followers do not mock the Quran verses. If anything this applies to hadith followers for they refuse to follow what the Quran tells them (read the verses you have quoted) FOR IT IS CLEAR THAT QURAN FORBIDS ANY HADITH (SPEECH, RECITAL, SAYINGS OR ANOTHER MEANING) OTHER THAN THE QURAN TO BE FOLLOWED OR BELIEVED. ps the brackets in the Quran translation are the translators interpertation and not necessarily the real meaning (not a point for discussion-just for clarification). regards[/quote]
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