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Prophet Muhammad observing Salat at only 3 times.
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[quote][quote]assalaam o alaykum This a very interesting discussion in that it tries to challange an established fact of history. I wanted to add some points for those interested in the discussion. Will be glad to be corrected. General questions: 1. Do the believers who offer five daily prayers have any historical arguments proving the fact that the Prophet offered five times daily and taugh the same to the companions? 2. If yes what does it worth? Is it more forceful and binding or weak and conjectural? 3. What principles of interpretation of the Qur'an can we all agree on before making the Book of God a judge for us. When we interpret the Book in a particular way and then put it in support of our claims we seem to be putting our words in the Book. It is our owrn word that works as an argument not the Book of God. In order to raise the Book to the status of Judge we need to agree upon principles of interpretation bases on reason and revelation. Coming to the Hadiths mentioned I believe a common reader like me faces the following questions while attempting to understand your views on the same. [quote] Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 10, Number 538: “Narrated 'Abdullah Al-Muzani: The Prophet said, "Do not be influenced by bedouins regarding the name of your Maghrib prayer which is called 'Isha' by them.” [/quote] I failed to understand how does it mean that the Beduins offered less than five prayers. It seems the hadith, if it is authentic, talks about the difference of the name of a certain prayer and aims at preempting a possible confusion resulting from the different usages of the name of the time. It implies that there are two different prayers, maghrib and isha. [quote] Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 20, Number 209: “Narrated Salim's father: Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle used to offer the Zuhr and 'Asr prayers together on journeys and also used to offer the Maghrib and 'Isha' prayers together.” [/quote] Doesn't this imply that customarily there are four prayers, talked of in this narrative, which are combined? Doesn't it name the prayers which are combined in certain cumstances? This leaves little doubt that the prayer are customarily and conventionally offered separately. [quote] Bukhai, Volume 1, Book 10, Number 572: “Narrated Jabir: Umar came cursing the disbelievers (of Quraish) on the day of Al-Khandaq (the battle of Trench) and said, "I could not offer the 'Asr prayer till the sun had set. Then we went to Buthan and he offered the ('Asr) prayer after sunset, and then he offered the Maghrib prayer.” [/quote] Do I miss something here? He just offers the missed prayer first and then goes on to offer the Maghrib prayer. This explicitly proves the existence of these two prayers. The issue is what to do when you have missed a prayer. The principle is to offer it when you come to know that you have missed it or when you get up if you have slept it or when you are free from a hinderance. [quote] “Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed in Medina seven (rak'ahs) and eight (rak'ahs), i.e. (be combined) the noon and afternoon prayers (eight rak'ahs) and the sunset and 'Isha' prayers (seven rak'ahs).”[/quote] If the narrator were to say that the Prophet offered 17 Raka'ah in twentyfour hours, 2 in the morning, 4 in zuhr, 4 in Asr, 3 in Maghrib, and 4 in Isha, the author of this article would have concluded that there is only one prayer. [quote] “Ibn 'Abbas reported: The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed the noon and afternoon prayers together, and the sunset and Isha' prayers together without being in a state of fear or in a state of journey.” [/quote] I would say why would the narrator specifically mention fear and journey? Let us listen to our friend on this.[/quote] Salaam, <<<<Bukhari, Volume 1, Book 10, Number 538: “Narrated 'Abdullah Al-Muzani: The Prophet said, "Do not be influenced by bedouins regarding the name of your Maghrib prayer which is called 'Isha' by them.” [red]I failed to understand how does it mean that the Beduins offered less than five prayers. It seems the hadith, if it is authentic, talks about the difference of the name of a certain prayer and aims at preempting a possible confusion resulting from the different usages of the name of the time. It implies that there are two different prayers, maghrib and isha. >>>>>>[/red] [blue][b]If the beduins called the maghrib prayer esha, then what did they call the esha prayer? They could not have had 2 prayers both called ESHA? and since the ESHA prayer is the last prayer of the day, this shows that they had only one prayer in place of the two, So they observed the correct salat which is called ESHA in the Quran, and which sunnis today call maghrib ……. [/b] [/blue] <<<<<Bukhari, Volume 2, Book 20, Number 209: “Narrated Salim's father: Narrated Ibn Abbas: Allah's Apostle used to offer the Zuhr and 'Asr prayers together on journeys and also used to offer the Maghrib and 'Isha' prayers together.” -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- [red]Doesn't this imply that customarily there are four prayers, talked of in this narrative, which are combined? Doesn't it name the prayers which are combined in certain cumstances? This leaves little doubt that the prayer are customarily and conventionally offered separately. >>>>>>[/red] [blue]It does not mean there were 4 prayers, it means that they were combining 4 prayers into 2 prayers, then they also had the fajr prayer, so the total would be 5 and not 4. More important, I have made it clear in my previous post that the Quran does NOT allow us to combine prayers, so this combining of prayers in hadith is a lie against the prophet. The prophet of God could not have invented rules for salat (combining) which were not authorised by God! If he was only praying one salat in place of the two, he was not really combining salat, but he was observing the correct number of salat in the day which is 3 …….[/blue] <<<<<Bukhai, Volume 1, Book 10, Number 572: “Narrated Jabir: Umar came cursing the disbelievers (of Quraish) on the day of Al-Khandaq (the battle of Trench) and said, "I could not offer the 'Asr prayer till the sun had set. Then we went to Buthan and he offered the ('Asr) prayer after sunset, and then he offered the Maghrib prayer.” [red]Do I miss something here? He just offers the missed prayer first and then goes on to offer the Maghrib prayer. This explicitly proves the existence of these two prayers. The issue is what to do when you have missed a prayer. The principle is to offer it when you come to know that you have missed it or when you get up if you have slept it or when you are free from a hinderance. >>>>>[/red] [b][blue]I don’t think you are reading my post very carefully! I have shown in the post that the Quran does not allow anyone to observe a prayer after the time for it has ended! If you read 4:103 we are told that the salat is decreed for the believers for SPECIFIC TIMES, this means that we cannot offer these prayers (fajr, wusta and esha) outside their specific times …….. So the hadith about Umar observing the Asr prayer after sunset paints Umar as someone who changed God’s rules by himself !!! This hadith does not prove the existence of Asr prayer as you wrote! The only proof we can be certain of for the legality of any prayer is a proof we get from the Quran and not from tales about Umar written 200 years after the death of the prophet … these hadith were used in the article to show what they were doing, and not to confirm the legality of any praye[/blue][/b]r. <<<<<<“Ibn 'Abbas reported that the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) observed in Medina seven (rak'ahs) and eight (rak'ahs), i.e. (be combined) the noon and afternoon prayers (eight rak'ahs) and the sunset and 'Isha' prayers (seven rak'ahs).” [red]If the narrator were to say that the Prophet offered 17 Raka'ah in twentyfour hours, 2 in the morning, 4 in zuhr, 4 in Asr, 3 in Maghrib, and 4 in Isha, the author of this article would have concluded that there is only one prayer. >>>>>>[/red] [b][blue]I am not really interested in ifs and buts …… the post is based on available hadith and also on what the Quran says, it is not based on if or but [/blue] [/b] Samsher[/quote]
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