quote:

---

Indeed it is quite an interesting point to say the least. Let me say that I've read the verses of the Bible that puport the Second Coming of Christ and really I think they are implicit and not explicit in nature. What I'm trying to find out now is whether this doctrine of Second Advent was developed at a later date as was the Trinity, God-ship of Jesus etc... This would answer a lot.

---

I think I have found some expilicit references in the Bible about the second coming of Jesus (pbuh). Yes, I am thinking of an imminent assertion that these are worst examples of tampering with the word of God. But, to that end, I am not responding. One assertion has been made above as to the implicit nature of references found in the Bible about the second advent of Jesus Christ. I think the following verses do not support theory so asserted.

While we wait for the blessed hope—the glorious appearance of our great God and Saviour, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good. (Titus. 2:13-4)

He who testifies to these things says: 'Yes, I am coming soon'
Amen. Come, Lord Jesus. (Rev. 22:20)

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ. (Phil. 3:20)

I would request you all to see the 'explicit references' in proper context. I have only studied the first one (Tit 2:13-4). We come to the others too. But let us see these verses in their proper context. None will find it hard to know that the exhorter is talking of the Hereafter:

Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, [See for other similar verses from the bible: Eph 5:24; 6:5; Col 3:22; 1Ti 6:1-2; 1Pe 2:18] (10) not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. [See also: Mt 5:16; Php 2:15] (11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, [see also: Lu 3:6; Joh 1:9; Ro 5:15; 1Ti 2:4; Tit 3:4-5; 1Pe 5:12] (12) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age , [See also: Lu 1:75; Ro 6:19; Eph 1:4; Col 1:22; 1Th 4:7; 1Pe 4:2; 1Jo 2:16] (13) looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, [see also: Ac 24:15; 1Co 1:7; Php 3:20; Col 1:5,23; 3:4; 2Ti 4:1,8; Tit 1:2; 3:7; Heb 9:28; 1Pe 1:7; 2Pe 3:12; 1Jo 3:2] (14) who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

Also please see Adam Clark:

"Verse 13. Looking for that blessed hope] Expecting the grand object of our hope, eternal life. See Tit 1:2. This is what the Gospel teaches us to expect, and what the grace of God prepares the human heart for. This is called a blessed hope; those who have it are happy in the sure prospect of that glory which shall be revealed.

The glorious appearing] kai epifaneian thv doxhv tou megalou yeou kai swthrov hmwn ihsou cristou. This clause, literally translated, is as follows: And the appearing of the glory of the great God, even our Saviour Jesus Christ. On this passage I must refer the reader to the ESSAY ON THE GREEK ARTICLE, by H. S. Boyd, Esq., appended to the notes on the Epistle to the Ephesians, where both the structure and doctrine of this passage are explained at large.

Some think that the blessed hope and glorious appearing mean the same thing; but I do not think so. The blessed hope refers simply to eternal glorification in general; the glorious appearing, to the resurrection of the body; for when Christ appears he will change this vile body, and make it like unto his GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things to himself. See Php 3:20,21."
"Verse 14. Who gave himself for us] Who gave his own life as a ransom price to redeem ours. This is evidently what is meant, as the words lutrwshtai and laon periousion imply. The verb lutrow signifies to redeem or ransom by paying a price, as I have often had occasion to observe; and periousiov signifies such a peculiar property as a man has in what he has purchased with his own money. Jesus gave his life for the world, and thus has purchased men unto himself; and, having purchased the slaves from their thraldom, he is represented as stripping them of their sordid vestments, cleansing and purifying them unto himself that they may become his own servants, and bringing them out of their dishonourable and oppressive servitude, in which they had no proper motive to diligence and could have no affection for the despot under whose authority they were employed. Thus redeemed, they now become his willing servants, and are zealous of good works-affectionately attached to that noble employment which is assigned to them by that Master whom it is an inexpressible honour to serve. This seems to be the allusion in the above verse."

What I get from the quote is that the exhorter says to be pepared for the Last Day. Of course explicitly.

I appreciate that you have shed light on one of the verses which supposedly talk about the second advent of Jesus (pbuh). I however have some questions about the explanaion you have given (quoted). I quote the spcifically relevant part of your explanation:

Some think that the blessed hope and glorious appearing mean the same thing; but I do not think so. The blessed hope refers simply to eternal glorification in general; the glorious appearing, to the resurrection of the body; for when Christ appears he will change this vile body, and make it like unto his GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things to himself. See Php 3:20,21."

I'd request you to please enlighten us more on the words for when Christ appears he will change this vile body, and make it like unto his GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things to himself. Do you not think that this part again talk about the second coming of Jesus (pbuh)--who will change the vile body and turn them all into righteous men of God and thereby completing his mission in the truest sense. The verses that have been quoted in the explanation also talk abou the second coming of Jesus or at least are presented to substantiate the belief in the second coming of Jesus. I quote these from the Bible:

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his conrol, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. (Phil. 3:20-21)

Please also give a thought to these words:

Thus redeemed, they now become his willing servants, and are zealous of good works-affectionately attached to that noble employment which is assigned to them by that Master whom it is an inexpressible honour to serve.

There is no question of transorming someone into willing servants in the Hereafter. The last day will be a day of Judgement--a day when those who believed in Jesus will be separated from those who did not and thereby rewarded or punished, so to speak. In simple words, a court is going to be established not a place where people are transfomed into good souls. This transformation is confined to this world.



Edited by - jhangeer hanif on January 22 2004 12:10:18

You had written:

I think I have found some expilicit references in the Bible about the second coming of Jesus (pbuh).

What I wanted to communicate is that this is not the case. The commentary and explanations quoted serve the prupose well. I brought the passages to bring your attention to the fact that the conclusion you drew could not be reached at without the help of preconcieved ideas on the issue. Though the commentator beleives in the second coming of Jesus but he is bold enough to decalre them 'explicit' references. I am not bright enough to discover the second coming of Jesus even from this commentary.

Please also give a thought to these words:

Thus redeemed, they now become his willing servants, and are zealous of good works-affectionately attached to that noble employment which is assigned to them by that Master whom it is an inexpressible honour to serve.

I would request you kindly to please have a look at the passage again. The verse 14 just explains some manifest attributes of Jesus Christ and his blessings in his life on earth. It does not tell us that he will do this on the Last Day.

Exhort bondservants to be obedient to their own masters, to be well pleasing in all things, not answering back, (10) not pilfering, but showing all good fidelity, that they may adorn the doctrine of God our Savior in all things. (11) For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, (12) teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age , (13) looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, (14) who GAVE HIMSELF for us, ( not will give) that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.

I do not know that I can explain that the reference is to the past. It is something which had passed before these verses were written or uttered. So says the commentator.


Edited by - zest on January 24 2004 14:04:53

I have gone through the passage again. But I still fail to see answer to my question. I understand you are saying that the verse 14 talks about the time when Jesus (pbuh) was here among his people; these attributes are a mention of his characteristics when he graced this world calling himself the Shephard. I however would like you to respond the following questions:

1. What is the connection between 'while we await' and the glorious appearance? This means that there is a hope for someone to appear? Who? Isn't it Jesus Christ?

2. The commentator has explained this verse as for when Christ appears he will change this vile body, and make it like unto his GLORIOUS BODY, according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things to himself.

Do you not think that this part again talk about the second coming of Jesus (pbuh)--who will change the vile body and turn them all into righteous men of God and thereby completing his mission in the truest sense. The verses that have been quoted in the explanation also talk abou the second coming of Jesus or at least are presented to substantiate the belief in the second coming of Jesus. I quote these from the Bible:

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his conrol, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. (Phil. 3:20-21)

The above verse has an amazing link with the verse in question. What do you think is the connection between these two verses?

3. From your quotation that you have quoted above from a commentary to support your viewpoint, I read the following passage:

Thus redeemed, they now become his willing servants, and are zealous of good works-affectionately attached to that noble employment which is assigned to them by that Master whom it is an inexpressible honour to serve.

If you believe that the commentator is supporting your viewpoint, then I think the above passage negates this very supposition of yours. Because there is no question of transorming someone into willing servants in the Hereafter. The last day will be a day of Judgement--a day when those who believed in Jesus will be separated from those who did not and thereby rewarded or punished, so to speak. In simple words, a court is going to be established not a place where people are transfomed into good souls. This transformation is confined to this world.

Thank you for helping me in identifying the link between the two. If we consider the text it does not singularly lead to the second coming. If we take help from the commentator Adam Clark then please see his commnent on phil 3:21:

Verse 21. Who shall change our vile body] Who will refashion, or alter the fashion and condition of, the body of our humiliation; this body that is dead-adjudged to death because of sin, and must be putrefied, dissolved, and decomposed.

That it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body] That it may bear a similar form to the body of his glory. That is: the bodies of true believers shall be RAISED up at the GREAT DAY in the same likeness, immortality, and glory, of the glorified humanity of Jesus Christ; and be so thoroughly changed, as to be not only capable through their immortality of eternally existing, but also of the infinite spiritual enjoyments at the right hand of God.

Thank you for quoting explanation from the commentary again.

The key words in Phil 3:21 are those which I have italicized

But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Saviour from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his conrol, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body. (Phil. 3:20-21)

But the words that you have quoted from the commentary start with those words that I have colored green above. Perhaps, you have missed the part about the italicized words while copying and pasting the quote. The other problem is that you have said nothing about what you understand of the quoted passage. Anyhow, I think you are trying to assert that people will be raised on the Last Day to account and this verse also talk about the Last Day and thus has nothing to do with this world. Please correct me if I am wrong. I say you are right if this is what you are trying to stress. I however understand this verse as when Jesus Christ (pbuh) comes again and explain to the world that He is not God and thus bring the strayed people again into the monotheistic religion, their vile bodies will be transformed and in such transformed bodies, they will be raised to Heaven.

I would appreciate if you would say a word about the first italicized part of the verse and also my aforementioned understanding of the verse.

2. I have raised two other questions about your explanation, which you can see in my previous explanation. I hope you will shed some light on these.

3. There are other two verses quoted above, about which you said that you will be explaining these two as well. I sincerely and seriously hope that you or Mr Hassan--who asked me to quote the verses-- would say some words about them too. Thank you and Mr. Hassan for your cooperation for clearing up confusions on this issue.

They slew him not, nor did they crucify him but it was made dubious to them. (Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157)

Where does the verse tell that Jesus sws did not die? Please help me understand.

And surely they slew him not. But Allah (God) raised him unto Himself. (Holy Qur'an, Surah Nisaa, Verse 157-158)

Again i have failed to discover 'acknowledged' fact that Jesus did not die from this verse.
What about this:

إِذْ قَالَ اللّهُ يَا عِيسَى إِنِّي مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَيَّ وَمُطَهِّرُكَ مِنَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ وَجَاعِلُ الَّذِينَ اتَّبَعُوكَ فَوْقَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ ثُمَّ إِلَيَّ مَرْجِعُكُمْ فَأَحْكُمُ بَيْنَكُمْ فِيمَا كُنتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ
(3:55)

And when Allah said: O Isa, I am going to give you death and cause you to ascend to Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection; then to Me shall be your return, so l will decide between you concerning that in which you differed.

If the second coming of Jesus is a fact, regardless of the fact we know it or not, God would have said:

I am going to take you (as those who believe in traditins regarding second coming of jesus translate the word mutawaffeeka in the verse as: i am gathering thee, etc ) and raise you towards Me and purify you of those who disbelieve and make YOU AND (for he is not going to die or at least when he comes) those who follow you above those who disbelieve to the day of resurrection.