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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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 Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 11:17 AM 
quote:
When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]
This clears the whole issue.
'The majority'is united on it and does follow the BASICS mentioned above or calims to follow.They quote either Quran or sunnah or companion's views for guidance on any course of action they follow.
The difference among the groups coming under this 'majority 'is largely based on preference of choice or stress on any part of the shariah or different ways of interpreting the same command.
Intentions(ikhlas) are known either to the person himself or Allah.Secondly the akhirah of a person is only known to Allah .If someone says anything about these two(ikhlas and akhirah)about others clearly means he is a lier who falsely trying to challenge Allah's authority over hereafter by crossing his limits.
All we can do is to try either to question others views(not intentions) or to prove our viewpoints .We not,but Allah is the judge.
Edited by: raushan on Tuesday, July 10, 2007 11:19 AM |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 12:34 PM
Agreed Raushan.
If we accept this concept of 'majority', then it is not possible to use 'majority opinion' in choosing different interpretations, as the majority itself will include various interpretations. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 2:39 PM
Dear Oosman,
Quote:-It appears you are suggesting that someone who follows the Quran can go to hell because he/she is not following hadith/reports attributed to the prophet. Is that what you are saying?
what I am trying to emphasis here is that if some thought that he can follow the Quran by just taking the orders from the Quran(without referring to the ahadith at all) then this person is on mistake.
To understand and obey the commands of Allah correctly one have to refer to the ahadith to undersatand it fully and for the practical applications of the commands of the Quran.I give you some examples here.
Following matters of religion can not be performed correctly without referring to ahadith even though they are there in the Quran.
1)Salat
2)Zakat
3)Fasting of Ramadan
4)Hajj
There are many other so many issues of the religion like sale, purchase, mortgage etc etc, where we find the injections in the Quran but for complete understanding and implementation in one's life or in the society we got no choice but refer to the ahadith of Prophet(pbuh).Since not every person is capable to do that for so many reasons,most of the people have others affairs to look on,so one can find any religious person who have study the religion properly and can ask any info one needed.
So then if any person say that Just Quran is enough for his guidance and there is no need to refer to ahadith due to so and so reasons, then this person's way of following religion should be different than of Prophet(pbuh) and the others Muslims of the society.That forsure. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 3:21 PM
Dear usmani790,
I think the Qur'an is enough for guidance. Ofcourse if you want more guidance, you can use scholars, jurists and authentic hadith that you check yourself - but all that is extra. For a layman, just following the Quran is enough.
For example
2.43: And be steadfast in prayer; practise regular charity; and bow down your heads with those who bow down (in worship).
Anyone who does not know how to offer prayer, all he needs to do is go to others who are bowing down in worship or offering their salat, and follow their lead. I never needed a hadith to learn my salat, I learnt it by watching others pray.
Same rules can be applied for almost any form of religious duty, like Zakat, Hajj, Fasting, etc. This way there is more flexibility, you have more ways of performing an obligation. What is more important is your intention (niyyat).
There are so many sects each with their own ways, eg sunni way of fasting is different from shia way, same for salat. It is not important which way you follow (if it was important, then Allah would have told us in the Quran). Both sects will swear that the prophet did it their way.
What is important is that we do not do shirk, we only worship Allah. If you go to offer your salat with some people, and you learn they are worshipping Muhammad or Ali or Hassan or Hussain along with Allah, then reject that salat and move elsewhere. Otherwise what harm is there in praying alongside of true believers whatever their sect is?
I asked you earlier what hadith you will follow, there are so many schools. You replied you prefer sunni version of hadith because it appeals to you more. Well, other people find shia and other versions more appealing. ONe must not take something just because he likes it, one must consider it without bias, and you seemed biased towards sunni hadith.
If hadith were that important, then Allah would have preserved them like He preserved the Quran. But Allah made no such promise for hadith, so we cannot assume they are authentic without proper research.
There is enough Sunnah of the prophet within the Quran for us to follow, and that is reliable authentic source of Sunnah. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 5:35 PM
Dear Oosman,
We have lots of time and energy to do our wordily affairs but when comes to knowledge of religion and following we become scholar of Islam.We never try to find what is out there from Allah and His last Messenger(pbuh).I believe that Allah have made every thing very clears even very small matters of religion for our following though Quran and Sunnah.Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon on Him) is the last Messenger of Allah and there won’t be any other messenger will be coming.Every required information and guidance is alredy there from Allah and from His last Prophet(pbuh) for every generation until the Qiyamah.To think that now we don’t have so many informations and making our own self free to choose what ever he thought is correct is a misleading thing. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 10:51 PM
Dear usmani790,
What do you think of this hadeeth, you must have come across it before:
Sahih Bukhari
Volume 2, Book 23, Number 480:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
A Bedouin came to the Prophet and said, "Tell me of such a deed as will make me enter Paradise, if I do it." The Prophet (p.b.u.h) said, "Worship Allah, and worship none along with Him, offer the (five) prescribed compulsory prayers perfectly, pay the compulsory Zakat, and fast the month of Ramadan." The Bedouin said, "By Him, in Whose Hands my life is, I will not do more than this." When he (the Bedouin) left, the Prophet said, "Whoever likes to see a man of Paradise, then he may look at this man."
If you believe in this Sahih Bukhari hadith, then it should be clear that we do not need to do anything more than the bare minimal obligations to enter Paradise. All the other stuff you talk about are extras, they are not obligatory. If someone does not want to study the hadith literature, then that should be ok - because it is not required. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 11:41 AM
the one bit of tasawwuf which i found useful is the recitation of Allah's various names for example reciting 'ya salamo' with deep breathing whilst doing routine exercise instead of counting numbers-; reciting 'ya qawee o' when travelling/driving to your exam/test /competition be it academic/sport/any-instead of frowning with stress and becoming breathless-
also i found this somehow a 'sufistic'7 mins exercise quite interesting which i observed in a counselling session given by a uk award winner muslim lady counsellr a few years back where you relax yourself completely and with closed eyes imagine youself in a nice clean beautiful environment, imagining all the scenic beauty you wish to, and then washing your heart in clean water from all the impurities gathered so far, watching the water go black with them, finally filling your heart with a bright light coming from Divinity and imagining this light being spread around yourself-also shared by others.
however as we hv mentioned at various places in the above discussion that bringing such to general public could cause trouble and confusion if the level of understanding is not kept in mind-as it is utmost imp. to keep such exercises and dhikrs (zikar/rememberance)within set limits-not letting them become the alternatives to the basic pillars of islam and faith-which can easily take the shape of innovation |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, July 11, 2007 - 3:10 PM
| In my opinion currently we have more than a few fractions of Islam. In my limited knowledge and humble opinion, the two essentials are intentions in the heart and to have no bias. Whenever we come across truth we accept it. In my humble opinion there is not a 99 percent consensus among Muslims on the corpus of religion. However there is 99 percent consensus on the 5 essential pillars of Islam. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:34 AM
Dear Oosman,
Quote:-If you believe in this Sahih Bukhari hadith, then it should be clear that we do not need to do anything more than the bare minimal obligations to enter Paradise. All the other stuff you talk about are extras, they are not obligatory. If someone does not want to study the hadith literature, then that should be ok - because it is not required.
We can not conclude this just on the basis of single hadith.Discuss it with any learned person. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 10:38 AM
Quote:-Whenever we come across truth we accept it.
Before accepting it, we should confirm it with any learned person who have the good knowledge of Furqan. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, July 12, 2007 - 3:06 PM
quote:
If we accept this concept of 'majority', then it is not possible to use 'majority opinion' in choosing different interpretations, as the majority itself will include various interpretations.
Majority can only be identified on common minimum agreed sources.
The interpretation derived from sources may vary and its quite natural.
Four school of thoughts are on of the examples that shows whether one follows any of these doesnt matter but he cant cosider others out of majority as all four derive guidelines from 'common'sources.The shafi school in its begining must be a different voice among majority of followers of hanafis.But were they considered'outsiders'even when the shafi's were in minority?No. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 7:47 AM
Yes I agree, and you have made a very valid point here. I started this discussion because of two statements which were made here and I qoute:
Quote1: We must see where are the majority of learned and sincere people
Quote2: What I have seen here that the people who did not accept sufism as part of islam are mostly those who thought that they have enough ability to undersatnd the religion and refused to accept the interpretation of majority of lerned people of the past and presents
To bring the discussion into perspective, I am basically questioning this concept of 'majority'. As you can see, this concept of majority or 'Jamhoor' assumes that a large group of scholars holds common opinion on most, if not all, matters of religion. Based on this assumption, any view 'different' from the 'majority' will be rejected just because it is 'different'. I think this concept contradicts with ground realities of present and also with history of Islamic Studies. Such a 'majority' has never existed. The reasoning used to support it is this: According to the 'majority's interpretation of the Ahadith such a 'majority' exists - as you can see it is a circular argument and cannot be accepted on logical grounds.
Salman |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:13 AM
4. The Final Authority
The Qur'an is a mi#za#n (scale that tells good from evil) and a furqa#n (distinguisher between good and evil) on this earth and a muhaymin (guardian) over other divine scriptures:
اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ وَالْمِيزَانَ (17:42)
It is God who has revealed with truth the Book which is this scale [of justice]. (42:17)
In this verse, the letter waw is for explication, and thus the word mi#za#n is actually used to connote al-kita#b. The verse means that the Almighty has revealed the Qur’a#n which is a scale of justice meant to distinguish good from evil. It is the only scale that weighs every thing else, and there is in no scale in which it can be weighed:
تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْفُرْقَانَ عَلَى عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا (1:25)
Blessed be He who has revealed al-furqa#n to His servant that it may warn the whole world. (25:1)
The Qur’a#n is also a furqa#n in the same sense, ie a book which the final and absolute verdict to distinguish truth from falsehood. This word also connotes the fact that this Book is the standard on which everything needs to be judged and is a decisive word on matters which relate to religion. Every one must turn to it only to resolve differences of opinion. Nothing can be a judge on it; it shall reign supreme in the dominion of religion and every person is bound not make it subservient to any other thing:
وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ (5: 48)
And [O Prophet!] We have revealed to you the Book with the truth in confirmation of the Book before it, and standing as a guardian over it. Therefore, give judgement among men according to the guidance revealed by God and do not yield to their whims by swerving from the truth revealed to you. (5:48)
Here the word used to connote the above sense is muhaymin (guardian). It is an adjective formed from the wordsهَيْمَنَ فُلاَنٌ عَلَى كَذَا which means “a guardian” and “a protector”. In this verse, the Qur’a#n has been regarded as a muhaymin on the previous scriptures. It means that the Qur’a#n is the real authentic and trustworthy version of the Book of God. Thus when the texts of other scriptures were lost to posterity and their translations were greatly tampered with, it was this Qur’a#n which was reposed with the status of judging between the right and wrong of those scriptures. Whatever it declares to be right is right and whatever it declares to be wrong is wrong and must necessarily be rejected.
This is the status of the Qur’a#n which it has asserted about itself. Thus on the basis of this status, the following principles need to be adhered to:
Firstly, no divine revelation extraneous to the Qur’a#n and not even the Prophet (sws) to whom this Qur’a#n was revealed, can specify a general directive of the Qur’a#n or alter any of its directives. Everything shall be accepted as religion or rejected that it is not on the basis of the Qur’a#n. Everything accepted in our religion shall be rigorously scrutinized under the light of this Divine Guidance. All basis of belief and faith shall be directly derived from it. Every revelation, inspiration, research and opinion shall be subservient to the Qur’a#n, and it shall be acknowledged that even the works of great jurists like Abu# H@ani#fah and Sha#fi‘i#, scholars of H@adi#th like Bukha#ri# and Muslim, theologians like Ash‘ari# and Ma#turi#di#, su#fi#s like Junayd and Shibli# must be weighed in the scales of this mi#za#n, and nothing can be accepted from them which is not in consonance with it.
Excerpt from Ghamidhi's book meezan |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:23 AM
Quote 2) they will follow the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) and that of Sahabah.What I have said 99% this I am only talking about the within sunni group and 1 % of them are those sonnies who are not used to follow the ahadith they to me (according to hadith) will be out from sunni group.Because following the Sunnah is a prerequisite to remains in this group.
Most humbly brother Usmani I disagree with this statement. We start with the issue of majority. we state 99% then we further say this is not 99% of muslims, this is 99% of sunnies, then we say this is not 99% of sunnies but those who believe in hadith and sunnah. So we keep changing the statistics till we can state they agree with our statement.
Brother, with respect, prophet pbuh made a statement about Muslims, did he specify specific group among muslims, shiaats say the kalimah, say namaz, fast,make hajj, believe in sunnah and even hadith, though derived from their own imams.are we saying they are not muslims?
To say 99% majority that agree with me does not reflect and depict muslims. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 11:34 AM
no divine revelation extraneous to the Qur’a#n and not even the Prophet (sws) to whom this Qur’a#n was revealed, can specify a general directive of the Qur’a#n or alter any of its directives. Everything shall be accepted as religion or rejected that it is not on the basis of the Qur’a#n. Everything accepted in our religion shall be rigorously scrutinized under the light of this Divine Guidance. All basis of belief and faith shall be directly derived from it. Every revelation, inspiration, research and opinion shall be subservient to the Qur’a#n, and it shall be acknowledged that even the works of great jurists like Abu# H@ani#fah and Sha#fi‘i#, scholars of H@adi#th like Bukha#ri# and Muslim, theologians like Ash‘ari# and Ma#turi#di#, su#fi#s like Junayd and Shibli# must be weighed in the scales of this mi#za#n, and nothing can be accepted from them which is not in consonance with it.
brother Usmani I would be grateful for your comments on the above statement.If Qur'an is furqaan, meezan and mohemen.If even the prophet pbuh cannot change, add or modify anything from outside the Qur'an then how can we state that a hadith which has two main limitations, firstly it is a khabar i wahid and secondly has the issue of matlab bil maani, a person states what he understands is the message rather than the original message. how an we derive religion from hadith ?how can we accept hadith as a source of religion? I must stress here that I do not nagate the importance and value of hadith but I have an issue accepting hadith as a source of religion.
As brother Mujahid has identified, even those Muslims who say that they believe in QUr'an only as the source of religion, are unable to explain where they derive the details about Namaz,fasting, hajj,i.e they accept sunnah in practice but do not accept sunnah . |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 13, 2007 - 12:14 PM
Dear Waseem,
Quote:-Most humbly brother Usmani I disagree with this statement. We start with the issue of majority. we state 99% then we further say this is not 99% of muslims, this is 99% of sunnies, then we say this is not 99% of sunnies but those who believe in hadith and sunnah. So we keep changing the statistics till we can state they agree with our statement.
No I did not ever change my statement. I only clarify my previous statement. I already stated in the beginning that to me the which people qualify the criteria which was there in the hadith.(They follow my Sunnah and that of my sahabah).Sunnies are not 99% ,I think they will more than 70%.
Quote:-Brother, with respect, prophet pbuh made a statement about Muslims, did he specify specific group among muslims, shiaats say the kalimah, say namaz, fast,make hajj, believe in sunnah and even hadith, though derived from their own imams.are we saying they are not muslims?
To me shiaats,and some others groups did not qualify the criteria set by Prophet(pbuh) so I did not Included them in the majority group i-e sunnies.You always can have a different view but make sure you don’t set yours own criteria for that. Prophet(pbuh) did not say that others who are not in the majority group are not muslims neither He said they are muslim.So why should we made any statement of such kind.We should take the advice from the hadith for our following and left the remaining part for God,He is better judge to decide it. |
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