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perv1

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 8:57 PM

Salaam

quote:
In the holy Qur'an, the book of Allah, He does not give specifics about what to cover and what to not cover - with few exceptions

I think this just about sums up the issue. The rest is each individuals opinion and interpertations. Certain issues in the Quran have been deliberately left open to interpertation. Because circumstances, societies change and God has given us intelligence and moral guidance to interpert certain sayings according to the situations that might exist at any given time or place.
regards

oosman

USA

Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 9:10 PM

Well said. I agree.

marwan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 9:52 PM

so what are you saying?

That as those things are not mentioned to be covered that it is possible not to cover them?

The Qur'an is specific where needed and in other places we are given the guidelines whose application is dependant on the era we live in.

By my brothers, clothing is just not one of those issues. It is dealt with in sufficient detail.

And the modest dress of women is not changeable with time.

You have provided no evidence to answer my paper, and so I remain correct and you remain incorrect.

That is the nature of evidence and logic.

salaam

perv1

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 11:18 PM

Salaam

quote:
You have provided no evidence to answer my paper, and so I remain correct and you remain incorrect.

Ok Mr Modest let look at the evidence you have provided:

quote:
They must draw their HEAD COVERINGS around and over their bosoms.

You have quite correctly stated the above and then:

quote:
It is disingenuous and illogical to say that they must/can remove their head coverings to cover their bosoms

What has this to do with the above verse. READ WHAT YOU HAVE WRITTEN. i.e use your head covering to cover your bossoms.
IT DOES NOT SAY COVER YOUR HEAD. If you draw that inference that is all your doing interperting it according to your whims for there is nothing in the above which says cover your head.
I am no expert in clothing but exactly how do you cover your bosoms and head with the same scarf. Has it not occured to you that God considered covering the bosoms far more appropriate than the head. DO NOT CONFUSE YOUR OPINION WITH FACTS.

quote:
because: -

There is no need to do so in order to fulfill the command.

The hair of a woman is a part of her beauty, of what makes her attractive. So it must be covered.

Again your opinion not a stated fact. Indeed some may consider a covered woman as more attractive because it adds mystique to her appearence-what do you suggest then nakedness!

quote:
It’s like saying (within the context of modesty) “I was told to cover my navel with my top… so I took off my top and wrapped it around my belly”… Illogical.

And exactly which verse are you referring to here. The example is illogical and makes no sense in relation to any Quranic referrence.

quote:
But this is the position of the liberal Muslim, they say (by analogy), well Allah only said to cover the naval, so covering anything else must be a cultural thing that we can choose to do or not do.

?????????

quote:
To say that you are not told to cover your head is also disingenuous,

Why is disingenious? do you think God is incapable of not being specific?

quote:
because if you are told to cover your bosoms with your head covering (within the context of modesty), it is taken for granted that you are covering your head,

Only by you and those who like you think that God is incapable of being exact.

quote:
so there is no need to explicitly state it.

No need. Correct but not for the reason you mention. Interesting you accept that it is not explicity stated and then draw a conclusion and expect everyone to accept your conclusion as fact-very logical!

quote:
The Qur’an makes the practice of the headscarf covering the head and the bosoms into a rule.

You state that it does not mention head covering explicity but now say it is a Quranic rule. We obviousouly have different idea as to what constitutes a Quranic rule.

I think you need to be clear what is a fact and what is opinion. Your opinion (no matter how clever you think it is) does not become a Quranic fact.

Simple every day scenario. If I ask you use you bed covering to cover your dining table (let us ignore my reasons for the moment) I am not telling you to cover both but explicity told you to cover your dining table with your bed covering. If I wanted you to cover both even simpleton like me would have said so and yet we are talking about God (who never runs out of word).
I WILL STATE AGAIN YOUR OPINION IS YOUR OPINION AND NOT QURANIC FACT.

regards

oosman

USA

Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 11:50 PM

Marwan,

Upon your insistence, I read your paper again. In summary, I agree with prev1, that you confuse what is fact and what is your logic. When you fail to bring evidence, you use your logic. And human logic is prone to error.

Your whole argument that the head must be covered rests on one big assumption. And you have not given any evidence to corroborate this assumption.

quote:

Women are told to use their head coverings to cover over their bosoms.

This would imply that it is now covering the head and the sides of the face and has its end wrapped around her neck so that the ends of the veil cover her bosoms.

The assumption is that when the verse came to use head covering (khimar) to cover bossom, the head used to be covered by the woman. You say in your paper that it is a logical assumption.

I do not agree with this. I do not see any logic that the women of that time were walking with bossom uncovered while the head was covered! The verse to cover the bosom came because it was not properly covered. These women, out of convenience perhaps for breast feeding their babies, used to wear long open necked dresses. And Allah knows best.

The onus is on you to prove your assumption is correct - you cannot merely say it is logical. First of all, it is not logical, second to make it a proper argument, you should present evidence rather than relying on your 'logic'. When a debater does not have evidence, then he/she starts relying on logic.

Once again I iterate, the ayat came to ask them to cover their bossom, not their heads. The assumption that the head was already covered should be proved with evidence and not logic.

quote:

To say that you are not told to cover your head is also disingenuous, because if you are told to cover your bosoms with your head covering (within the context of modesty), it is taken for granted that you are covering your head, so there is no need to explicitly state it.

Again and again you make the same assumption in your paper! You say it is taken for granted. How is that taken for granted? You say there is no explicit need to say the head should be covered (because you assume it already was). If your assumption is false, then then your argument breaks down.

quote:

The Qur’an makes the practice of the headscarf covering the head and the bosoms into a rule.

Based on your assumption, you make something a rule, that you admit is not explicitly mentioned in the Quran. Is that not like bidda? Allah knows best your intentions.

quote:

This is to make the woman recognizable as a Muslim woman

*

And this will be across time and cultures, so the argument that women will dress according to times or in a manner suitable to the times is false.
*

This is the command of Allah not a culturally variable tradition.

Infact it seems that it is indeed a culturally variable tradition. It seems you are not knowledgeable of the context of the verse. There were pious ladies, and there were prostitutes working in harems, owned by immoral men. The men who used to visit these brothels, used to flirt with the prostitutes. These immoral men started harassing the pious women also. The verse was revealed to clearly differentiate the pious believing women from the prostitutes, so the pious women would be left alone and not harassed. All this makes the verse more prone to a cultural interpretation. If today a Muslim woman walks down the road in niqab in America or Europe, she is more likely to be harassed, because she stands out in the crowd. Allah's verse clearly says the purpose is to prevent the woman being harassed. If the purpose is not being acheived by head covering, but rather it is causing the reverse effect, then it should be taken in a cultural and time specific manner. Allah desires ease of religion for His slaves, not harshness.

In respect to month of Ramadan, Allah says:

Allah desires ease for you, and He does not desire for you difficulty (2.185)

Hijab should not be used as a tool to make the life of a believer difficult. If it does not serve the purpose it is intended for, then it should be used in a time and place where it does serve the purpose.

quote:

And to help decrease the chance of her being annoyed/hurt. Annoyed why? Obviously due to the men who would desire them if they saw the beauty of the women. Feminists may not like accepting this reality, but that is their problem.

You make it sound like it is the woman's fault that the man desires her lustfully. Are you blaming the woman for the man's crime?

Also you failed to mention in your paper how it is fair that given men and women both have equal sexual impulses, that only women have to go through extra steps? Are you implying Islam is not fair to women? Do not women have the same sexual desires, infact they are also attracted by handosome men. Example of Yusuf (a.s.) is there in the Quran, when Aziz's wife Zuleikha chased Yusuf (a.s.) in her desire and ripped his shirt.

I have presented my case to you. What is important is not that who is correct and who is wrong, but what is important is that we respect each other like brothers and discuss the issues peacefully.

Allah knows best.

marwan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Wednesday, November 8, 2006 - 11:53 PM

salaam,

THANK YOU!!!

Im so glad someone took the time and effort to respond!

Now i will feel much better taking my time to respond to all your points.

When i get the chance insha Allah in the next day or so.

Thanks again perv.

salaam

Edited by: marwan on Wednesday, November 08, 2006 11:53 PM

Rakhtal

PAKISTAN

Posted - Thursday, November 9, 2006 - 4:45 AM

quote:
When you guys cannot defend your argument, you start hurling personal attacks against the speaker!

But the speaker like you, oosman, should have some sense!

Imposing your own allegations on others is a living evidence of your vivid selfishness. So before you are blaming other for not defending their arguments why you didn’t answer my questions already put to you which I repeat here?

1. “If there is no clearly mentioning of head covering in Quran, there is also NOT CLEARLY MENTIONED to cover the HIPS and ABDOMEN (if the woman is pregnant) and also not the LEGS etc. So like bare headed, should such women patrol here and there with big abdomen and hips and with bare legs?”

2. You said that only women should be covered up because men have lust and women don't is a crock of crap. Islam teaches us to be fair and just; Women also have the same feelings as men, then why should women have to cover up?” If your understanding is so selfish then in that verse regarding head covering, has Allah commanded for men to cover like women?

Answer first these questions then speak the absolutely baseless words like those in your quote quoted above.

Regarding the grand daughter of the prophet PBUH, do you know what the circumstances were at that time?

Bhavittre

PAKISTAN

Posted - Thursday, November 9, 2006 - 5:15 AM

here, u can see the quranic concept of oosman and his suporters.

http://www.sawf.org/newsphotos/hollywood/Jessica_Alba_MTV_awards_splashnews.jpg

Bhavittre

PAKISTAN