| Author | Topic |
marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Friday, July 2, 2010 - 7:33 PM 
salaam,
The phrase you quoted is a particularly aggressive statement of my intention to demonstrate my point and refute your if needs be. It was harsh. And so it will be changed.
My contentions are as follows: -
1- Men and women are not the same and cannot do the same things. They also tend to want to do and be different things.
2- Feminism is a man hating and femininity hating ideology which wants to make women perpetually victims in their mindset and want to make women act like men. It has been a large element in the break up of the family.
3- Muslim women, just like Muslim men, need to know their place in the world. That place is not competing with each other. The essence of the male and female is that of complementarity, not competition. Women have become more masculanised from a young age and are trained to try to compete against men physically, mentally and emotionally.
Modern women have been brainwashed to despise femininity and to aim for masculinity. And men have been brainwashed in the opposite way.
The effects of this are enormous and almost entirely detrimental.
I do not recommend Muslim women going out to work, unless they truly must to survive. They should have as their focus the home.
I do support women gaining knowledge, but especially beneficial knowledge.
In the family the man is the head of the household, no ifs and no buts. True, discussion and consultation should take place.
Women and men must be once again educated on what it mean to be male and female. We are designed differently and have different needs. We have much discontentment because we are all taught to ignore these.
Only once we work together and not against each other can the family and society once again improve.
I can defend all these points.
For a view I found on the husband and wife relationship, visit http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/The%20Husband%20wife%20relationship%20in%20Islam.htm
Also check out the links posted in my previous post.
salaam
Edited by: marwan on Friday, July 09, 2010 3:09 PM |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 2, 2010 - 10:22 PM
A very good website, yes we all do understand the directives given by the Quran, that is what a marriage should be the husband a protector and provider and wife staying home fulfilling her responsibilities looking after the children and accepting her husband's authority.
In this day and age this is not how it is, more and more women are at work along with their husbands the most common reason being economics, the salary of the husband is not enough to support a household expenditure. In most cases the husband wants his wife to work that is why there is no problem.
The you tube clip is showing an environment of women in Europe but in Pakistan or any other third world country this does not exist. there are no state laws saying that so many women should be hired and even if they are who pays attention to them. women have to be extremely good to be hired at places of responsibility like banks, multinationals hospitals etc. In some places they are even hired at a lower salary than a man. In some places women are constantly sexually harassed from passing rude sexual remarks to even more intimidation,....... a sexual harassment case in Pakistan? unheard of if there are any then you can count them on fingertips. I think you can understand what I am talking about.
coming back to wives working, I think when a man decides to marry he should be clear in his mind what he expects from his wife and vice versa if he is thinking of marrying a girl who is a high achiever and is inclined towards a career and he expects her to be a stay home wife then the marriage is starting on the wrong foot. Expectations of a husband from a wife and wife from the husband should be clear from the start. In our country marriages are arranged and it is not just husband and wife but the in laws are there so a lot is at stake. |
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safimera
CANADA
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Posted - Saturday, July 3, 2010 - 2:59 AM
brother marwan==>
at the moment I would cover your only one following point:
quote:
I do not support women going out to work, unless they truly must to survive. Women should have as their focus the home.
I do support women gaining knowledge, but especially beneficial knowledge.
my dear brother this is not very simple...
ok take one example of "LADY DOCTOR":
I saw all FATHERS , HUSBANDS AND BROTHERS searching for "lady doctors", "lady doctors" in hospitals for their daughters, wives and sisters...
it is good, ladies themselves also want to be examined only by lady doctors....
now HOW 3.5 billion women would get a "lady doctor" ????
please realize....we need a lot , a lot of lady doctors.....but from where they would come??
from the sky???
among us they have to be educated....
ok now, to become a lady doctor, she need a "girls school till 12th grade"...then from where these lady teachers would come???
in schools you need other staff as well other than the teachers.
now from where these other lady staff would come...???
then I believe that you would be against also CO-education in university and medical college!!!
so from where these ladies staff for a female only university and female only college.....????
Sir!! please realize...a lot of women have to go out , sacrifice their some home duties in order to serve your sisters, wives and daughters' HEALTH issue only???? ....
Not to mention that one complete field of medicine is OBSTETRIC ...which is totally for the purpose of reproduction and till qayama you need this profession.....
because of such mentality (must keep woman at home).....there are many many male OBStetrics in the field and making embarassment for ladies in emergency situation because at that time u have no choice.....
please now, do not tell me like TALBAN: that "let her die , but she would not be examined by male doctor even in emergency and even with lady nurse helping the doctor".....
Mr MArwan....this is only about "lady doctor" requirement.....
now tell me what about "lady police"????
you want your women to be searched or caught by male police?????...DO YOU????...of course not...but for that, you need a lady police and for that, you need a chain of lady staff from grade 1 till her professional education institute...
you cannot keep a lot of women in house now....world population is more that 6 billion and women are half of it....
if you need a healthy world ...you need professional ladies ...which means that a lot of them have to come out of their homes...
Instead of stopping them to come out...we should make an islamic and decent atmosphere for our daughters, sisters and wives in the society...so they should be respected everywhere.....
remember the Hadees: "that one day would come that a women would make a long journey alone, and she would have no fear except Allah"......
we should continue our effort to make such atmosphere of the society till we are alive....
GOD knows better....
Edited by: safimera on Saturday, July 03, 2010 3:01 AM
Edited by: safimera on Saturday, July 03, 2010 3:07 AM |
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saba2
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 3, 2010 - 3:19 AM
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 3, 2010 - 11:29 AM
quote:
In this day and age this is not how it is, more and more women are at work along with their husbands the most common reason being economics, the salary of the husband is not enough to support a household expenditure.
Did you ever wonder why? You go back 50-70 years, and the average salary of a man was enough to support his wife and kids. Now it is not... Let me tell you, what changed was the propensity for women to go out to work.
See, the banker and builder etc saw the opportunity. They saw that as there were now two earners, there was more money they could extract from people. So the price of life increased.
On top of this, the wages for men reduced due to the increased availability of labour.
So what happened? Women had the choice not to work in the past. Their stupid feminism and alleged liberation (from what), has all but removed this option from them.
I want to ask you... How brainwashed must you to be, especially as a Muslim, to spend most of your day working for someone, away from the knowledge and practice of your deen... WHEN YOU DONT HAVE TO?
You see, women were told that they could and should compete with men, that they were merely slaves if they stayed at home. That they were inferior if they did so. Women have swallowed this, hook, line and sinker.
Now lets expand a little bit. What happened once women felt the urge to waste their life at work? Kids became neglected and were raised by strangers. This has a psychological effect upon kids, a negative one.
What happened to the husband - wife dynamic? Well now women have decided they do not owe their husbands obedience, which Allah has commanded of them, they have decided to be confrontational at home, because they think they do not need the husband. This has helped to raise the divorce rate dramatically.
You may say why should I obey my husband... Because Allah Commanded it and specified the family design to psychologically facilitate that (husband working, wife home etc).
But note, women have no problem obeying their boss at work. Because society tells them that is ok. And because they are paid. But they will scream unfairness obeying their husband, as Allah commands them.
Lets compare, the duty of the husband is to protect and seek the best for his wife. To love and care for her. Women now think "I am not obeying him and who does he think he is".
Whereas at work, for a boss (usually a man), who does not care if you are alive or dead, if you are happy or sad as long as it does not affect profit... well women have no problem being nice and obedient... Money and brainwashing sure are amazing.
Anyway that is it at the moment. safimera, I will respond to your points next time I am online insha'Allah. I have come across them many times before, and they are easy to answer.
salaam |
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sista_amina
NEW ZEALAND
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Posted - Saturday, July 3, 2010 - 8:41 PM
| There is no discussion or point about competing with men as men or about feminism. Don't mix up the things. There are women who let themselves down by not understanding what role they can play to build organizations, while still remaining a woman. However sadly there are still sexist men in Muslim organizations who would keep hammering them down in order to satisfy there big egos, because men with big egos have tiny.... manhood. However we have had great Muslim men who have proved justice and fairness in this field. |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 3, 2010 - 9:32 PM
quote:
There is no discussion or point about competing with men as men or about feminism. Don't mix up the things. There are women who let themselves down by not understanding what role they can play to build organizations, while still remaining a woman. However sadly there are still sexist men in Muslim organizations who would keep hammering them down in order to satisfy there big egos, because men with big egos have tiny.... manhood. However we have had great Muslim men who have proved justice and fairness in this field.
There is discussion about competing and feminism. Educate yourself before you speak sister. Women and girls are brainwashed from a young age to compete with boys, and laughably are made to think they are better. This is a part of the stinking fruit of feminism.
By definition if a Muslim woman goes out to work 'to fulfil herself' (not if she finds it necessary), she were competing with her husband (if married) as the bread winner, as the head of the family. By seeking to go against what Allah said in:
“Men are the protectors/guardians and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore/so the righteous women are devoutly obedient (to the husband), and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. ...” (4:34)
So by Muslim women going out to work, they are attempting to cancel the pattern of the family that Allah guides us to by negating one of the aspects of the husband's role, namely supporting the wife from their means. Therefore, by unnecessarily going to work, women are directly competing with men for this role. It is undeniable logically. How you feel about that is irrelevant.
Because by the nature of challenging and competitive work, a woman must often change who she is to succeed, she must take on male characteristics. An interesting article is here: -
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/features/article6073045.ece
And finally, you jibe about manhoods... Disgusting... and interestingly enough, a jibe used by feminists. I have both read and heard them saying exactly that to any man who responds to their lies. You do yourself a great dis-service by sinking to the gutter like that.
Salaam.
Edited by: marwan on Friday, July 09, 2010 3:13 PM |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 3, 2010 - 10:16 PM
Salaam,
Let me start with your last sentence: -
quote:
GOD knows better....
I agree, but you don't. Read the link to the article on the husband and wife relationship that I posted. In it, it is demonstrated that the role of women is tied to the home, and the role of men is the bread winners.
The pattern for the family that Allah sets out is simple, clear and leaves no room for negotiation.
It is you who is working backwards, you are looking for reasons why you think women should go out to work, instead of looking at what Allah says. You then make your own ahwaa' (desires etc) the guide for your opinion and not the revelation of Allah.
Unless you can demonstrate that my understanding of Allah's guidance is wrong on this, and I am confident you cannot, all the rest of your justifications are completely irrelevant. Women for thousands of years have survived with male doctors, in Muslim and other countries.
The fact is, needing to go to the doctor is an exceptional circumstance that offsets the issue of modesty. Lady police officers? They are not as effective a male police officers. Ever notice how when a female police officer is patrolling that a male officers is almost always with her and not a female officer? Ever wonder why?
If a police officer unduly searches a female he should be punished, simple. You are simply looking for reasons to justify your desire to work and/or see women work. The point is, you cannot mesh that desire with the reality of Allah's guidance. Even though you do say that God knows best.
Women should be educated in a manner that useful and not wasteful. They should learn enough to teach their children if needs be. They should learn Qur'an and Arabic and have access to any knowledge they can read and understand. They can learn all the aspects of home economics, nutrition and so on. They can learn what can benefit them and their community, but they may not compete with men for work roles, and may not compete with their husband as the breadwinner and head of the family.
Men should be the ones getting the places for medicine and such, as they are the best at it on the whole and are more likely to do the harder jobs better. There are many women in the west doing medicine (almost more than men, at least in my country), but they mostly go for easy things like GP etc, then they will regularly drop out to have kids and may stay away. It is the men who end up doing most of the challenging roles anyway, like surgery, medicine and obstetrics and gynaecology. So even if women do medicine, they will tend to easy stuff anyway.
Make note of my statements in the previous post to sista also.
Regardless of my comments on female doctors etc. You must demonstrate that my understanding of Allah's guidance on this is wrong, or your attempted justifications are futile.
Salaam
Edited by: marwan on Saturday, July 10, 2010 12:06 PM |
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safimera
CANADA
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Posted - Sunday, July 4, 2010 - 1:28 AM
my brother Marwan!!!I did not know that u have such a nice heart..... as u said:
quote:
Lets compare, the duty of the husband is to protect and seek the best for his wife. To love and care for her
if all husbands would be like you who also talk about love and care for wives....then there would not be any problem ..............
but in reality , majority of males not think like you.....they talk about authority and obeying...but not love and care for wife......
now I understood why u r so in favour of putting wife obeying her husband........
when u would feel reponsibility for bread, cloth and shelter for your wife.....when you are protector of her from outside evil...when u do not consider your authority from GOD over her as a superiority complex, instead u consider this authority as a great responsibility.....when u treat your wife with love and care.....when u understand her limits, desires and emotions...then why your wife would not obey you?????????..why anybody's wife would not obey then?????
but my brother outside your world, majority of husbands consider their wives...somebody who is servant to them....they are not following what you mentioned above....
it is my experience that u (husband) start first....you start treat her with love and care....then she would love to obey you to her last extent......
Our beloved Prophet (pbuh)'s married life gave us same message.......
so I agree with you that if husband is like you (who cares for her bread, cloths and shelter, consider his authority over her as a responsibility rather than a superiority complex and treat her with love and care).....then a wife must obey him.....
otherwise she has full right NOT to obey him.....
regarding your version to keep women inside house.....and NOT to make them lady doctors, teachers or police officers.....it needs another discusson.....i will come to this topic after 3 or 4 days ....as I am travelling tonight... a very long flight.......
May God make all husbands like your thinking (who care for her bread, cloths and shelter, consider his authority over her as a responsibility rather than a superiority complex and treat her with love and care)..
God knows better...... |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Sunday, July 4, 2010 - 3:48 AM
quote:
my brother Marwan!!!......regarding your version to keep women inside house.....and NOT to make them lady doctors, teachers or police officers.....it needs another discusson........
If he has said so permit me to ask brother Marwan whether he prefers to send his wife/sister/daughter to a male gynecologist  |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 4, 2010 - 10:32 AM
salaam safimera,
My position on this is reflected in the document cited in my previous post on husband and wife. Now I appreciate that the way the world has become makes the ideal situation difficult to achieve. However, that is not an excuse to ignore it. Rather we should aim for it and alter how we do things to achieve it.
I wish to make clear, and this should be in the document I linked to, that having her focus as the home does not mean imprisonment in the home. That would be like saying that a man having his focus as his work means he never comes home, illogical. It just implies a focus of our efforts.
This is complementarity, where different spheres of life are put as the responsibility of those best suited to it.
I know that it may not be possible at this point in time for every or even most husbands to financially and psychologically achieve the ideal, nevertheless they should try and their wives should also try to be supportive of this. The husband and wife dynamic is something that takes some effort.
I also understand that many men are not acting as they should, as no doubt many women are not also. However, Islam is a guidance to the best path, and we should aim for it as best we can. So while what you say may be the reality in a a given percentage of the Muslim population, it should not then make you look away from the best path we should aim for.
To be clear, I fully advocate that women have access to any and all useful knowledge. As an ignorant woman is easy to mislead (by society and also her husband) as well as an inferior mother (as a part of her job is to help educate and train he child). And in the current climate they may need to learn enough to be able to get a job, however, they should aim for jobs that are conducive to their natures for the purpose of taking care of their financial needs while they exist, rather than to aim to be career women in the modern context.
We are Muslims first and foremost, and our aims in dunya should reflect that. To achieve a career is not something that should be high on the list of priorities for a Muslim woman. As it is not a part of the ideal role that Allah has for her. For the husband, achieving a career, is.
This truly has nothing to do with superiority before Allah, it has to do with the complementary roles and natures Allah has given men and women.
In dunya, it also has to do with the best way to raise a child, the best way to organise the fundamental unit of society. And the best psychological context to achieve contentment for men and women.
I leave further comments until you decide to add what you wanted to you response.
salaam
Edited by: marwan on Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:29 PM
Edited by: marwan on Sunday, July 04, 2010 12:48 PM |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 4, 2010 - 12:24 PM
quote:
If he has said so permit me to ask brother Marwan whether he prefers to send his wife/sister/daughter to a male gynecologist
Salaam,
The question is not about preference. Dunya is not run by our preference but by the will of Allah.
However, if there is a female doctor that would normally be a preference, but a male doctor would suffice also. In either case, if it serious, or very delicate I would try to be there as well. I would ask you to consider the possibility of homosexual female doctors.
I have spoken to male doctor friends I have and was told that when examining people, male or female, is totally business, things are seen analytically and dealt with as such.
You have to consider at least three things when asking why we do not or should not have more female doctors: -
1 – Female doctors will need to, as a matter of course, or occasionally, deal with male patients. Even if they are not supposed to, you cannot say that some situation will not come about where this happens.
2 – Also, unless you somehow force the situation of their being the same number of male doctors as female doctors (in all of the various fields), there can be an imbalance in the treatment of men and women. This may by design force men treating women and viceversa. Which would the defeat the point of the preference of female doctors for females etc. Namely under the guise of protecting modesty. This does not happen if it is men treating both men and women.
2a – I will add that the idea that a society would try to force women in to roles they may not want, roles which would cause them to sacrifice husband and children, is unjust and misguided in the second case; foolish and improbable in the first case.
3 – To see the private parts of a female (or male) is not acceptable for anyone but their spouse under normal circumstances. So just because a female doctor sees a female's private parts does not make it any more appropriate for a female to see the private parts of another female. It is just the context of a medical situation which creates the exception to the normal way of things. Given that this is the case, it is nothing but preference and not deen and logic that leads to the request for more female doctors. And preference cannot be the foundation of going against the pattern that Allah sets out for the family structure of the husband and wife and society.
Truly Allah knows best.
Salaam |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, July 5, 2010 - 10:54 AM
Marwan wrote: quote:
......You have to consider at least three things when asking why we do not or should not have more female doctors: - ..........
The issue is not about appointing doctors in a hospital or about the ratio of male to female doctors in a multispeciality hospital. The discussion is on permissibility of women taking up professions such as doctors, teachers etc. |
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Javairea01
USA
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Posted - Monday, July 5, 2010 - 7:47 PM
This is why a women is ordered to stay in the house. She is safer in the house away from the Shaitan. Im refering to what was said about the sexual harassment... Its alot of significance that comes behind the women staying in the house. A Sheikh said the rib that covers the heart is crooked to protect the heart from the things its subjected to. But when the Dunya or a man cause the women to do something they are not ordered to do... its like breaking the rib and the heart is no longer protected. So think about the women in the west that fornicate and their not married. They get pregnant and the man that impregnanted her is no longer around, he dont want to man up to his responsibility. So now she has to play mother and father, worker, and hold down the fort. She's doing things a women wasnt ordered to do and now her rib is broke and her heart is affected. And believe me she feels some type of awful way. But people in the west dont see how this religion could of made this world a better place. If they just followed islamic rules. But the more people transgress the bounds the harder the test is getting. The mother could get depressed, give the kid up for adoption, over dose on pills, commit suicude, or anything, its alot of things the heart is subjected to after that rib is broken. And the people dont see it but I see it. Its only making the test of this world harder. One sin leads to another unless you repent and leave it off as much as you can. Im not just talking about this situation. If you think about a women doing anything she is not ordered to do(unless is necessary and Allah knows best) it will cause an affect on her whether it be small or big. Its happening everyday... its all because of sins and the competition of male and female. Its the reason for everything: wasting money, having unlawful kids, technology and war... all falls into 1 category why the American economy is down. Cause they thought it was cool to make credit cards that people refuse to pay back, and build all this technoology that supposed to "make your life easier" but if they knew anything Allah makes it easy. All over wealth. Trust me if you dont see it now just take a moment and see how the government gets you sin and trangress and how it affect other things that you think it doesnt even affect. If a women did what Allah said to do everything would be good. The same for a man. I just think its time for people to put two and two together and get the picture because the Dunya is sick. Just like people on this forum talking evil to each other. If there is a kufr on here they're not going to see a difference in their religion and ours. Its sad, I hate when muslims talk like their against each other. We should all just follow the Quran. And if you're following the Quran your following the Prophet! Because Allah said whatever the prophet gives you take it and whatever he forbids obstain from it. But yet we forget the most important things that we read in the Quran. Hamulilah for the muslims that kept it mumin! May Allah reward you. Avoid vain evil speech for the sake of Allah and nothing else.
Salaam |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 5, 2010 - 11:28 PM
quote:
Marwan wrote: quote:
......You have to consider at least three things when asking why we do not or should not have more female doctors: - ..........
The issue is not about appointing doctors in a hospital or about the ratio of male to female doctors in a multispeciality hospital. The discussion is on permissibility of women taking up professions such as doctors, teachers etc.
Salaam,
Permissibility... I cannot say it is forbidden, as my knowledge at this point would not allow me to say so. All I can say based upon my knowledge is that it is in keeping with the family plan of Allah that women would avoid working outside the home in a general sense (unless they need to) (plenty of work to do in the home in terms of caring, cleaning feeding, husband relationship, (and if child involved) caring for and educating the child(ren) etc !!). This would include therefore roles such as doctors etc.
However, medical, nutritional etc knowledge that is beneficial should be available to them.
The point brother is that we must aim with our intentions and effort to actualise the best guidance of Allah in our lives, and while deviating from this may not be forbidden, it would in my opinion be a poor route to take by choice.
I understand that Muslim ladies can find themselves needing to work these days, however they should view it as a means to an end, and not an end in itself. And as stated before, I support them acquiring the knowledge and skills to allow themselves to gain employment should the need arise.
I hope I have answered your question.
salaam |
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safimera
CANADA
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Posted - Tuesday, July 6, 2010 - 7:21 AM
salam
even i have a jet lag and am very tired because of travelling......
but brother Marwan i am happy to see your reply....
apart of some little differences , I almost agree with you.....
about role and rights of woman and man, we almost agree on same conclusion except that "how it should be applied in present world of enormous population and technology".....
this is a long but very important debate and everybody may have a little differnce of opinion because of his/her individual experience, islamic knowledge and circumstances......
which can be resolved with healthy open and logical discussion......
May God help us to live in peace and harmony..... |
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