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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Friday, December 22, 2006 - 1:18 PM 
Salaam Nida
quote:
Not at all, brother! I knew you would misunderstand me, so I wrote "by the Grace of Allah" before that, indicating that it was all by the will of Allah that He gave us the Ahaadeeth.
I did not misunderstand you. Unfortunately you are employing the classic tactics that hadith followers employ to try to get out contradictions that the hadith pose (give me a number to the nearest dozen & I will see if can find that number of contradictions in hadith, time permitting).
I am afraid you cannot have it both ways (1) State that Quran allows wife beating and(2) It is the hadith that puts the Quran right by minimising the beating.... obviousouly the muslims must have given thier wives a really good beating for 300 yrs until Bukhari and co came to the rescue.
I am afraid I dont know what a light beating is compared to heavy any suggestions.... I mean how hard can one punch, kick or strangle etc is their a measurement one can undertake to fit in with your interpertation of the Quran
quote:
The Qur'an is the words of Allah
Correct
, quote:
and the Ahaadeeth their explanation.
really have you read what the Quran says about the hadith repepeatedly...In fact the only Hadith the Quran says to believe is the Quran.. The Quran is very clear in rejecting all other hadith beside the Quran.. If you do not have the references I will be happy to oblige.
Just for few minutes put your personal prejudices aside and read what the Quran has to say about hadith & if you still wish to follow them then good luck to you..If you continue to follow the haidth just a simple expalanation of which groups hadith you have chosen to follow i.e shia or sunni as unfortunately they are almost diametrically opposed to each other
quote:
Although Allah himself says in the Qur'an that His Book is easy to understand, I think many a times a person may get confused on certain verses of the Qur'an.
What are you suggesting here my young sister-that Allah is confused. One minute Allah is telling us that it is very easy to understand Oh! but on the other hand it might not be that easy so here is something else to make it more easier... bit like light beating I suppose.
Why (even though the Qur'an is detailed and explained)?
Really! again is the suggestion that Allah is little confused i.e the Quran is detailed and explained ah! yes but not detailed enough or fully explained so lets have some hadith to fully complete and explain..correct me if i am wrong but is what you appear to be implying.
Otherwise what does detailed and fully explained mean to you.
quote:
Because we're humans. We're not capable of understanding the full message of the Qur'an without someone to guide us, and that guide was our Holy Prophet (SAW).
My dear young sister what are you suggesting that our prophet was not human? (please read what the Quran has to say on this...it is very clear and unambiguous).
quote:
Being the Messenger, his knowledge was very great, obviously the greatest among humans. He was a living example and a guide, and his words (Ahaadeeth) still continue to guide us.
I suppose it depends on whose word you beleive that these words are his. I mean whether, shia narrator or sunni or the sunni one where the prophet says dont write anything from me other than the Quran...Because this is a classic hadith in the mould of a sentence: I NEVERTELL THE TRUTH. Can you spot how ridiculous this sentence is. I am afriad this sums up the self contradictions that exist in hadith
quote:
Who could've better interpreted the Qur'an
Why dont you trust Allah on this, because again it is clearly stated in the Quran i.e it is Allah who will explain this Quran or is it once again you dont quite believe what Allah is saying.
quote:
than the Messenger of Allah? So he proved to be an excellent guide in the form of a Mufassir, and taught us the full meaning of the Qur'an, lest we, in our ignorance, should misunderstand it. So if we're taking his help in understanding the Qur'an better, how can that mean that we're worshipping him or considering him to be a deity?
Unfortunately since he is not around to be asked and the so called written words are repeatedly contradictory and do not portray him in good light i.e indulged in endless sex, paedophilia, cruelty & so the list goes on &you seriousouly suggesting that we use the same sources to interpert the Quran according to Mohammed.
You wrote:
quote:
Exactly which part of his statement do you agree or disagree with then.
The thing is, I follow the translation of 'Abdullah Yusuf 'Ali.
Is Yusuf Ali beyond reproach now! that he could not have made an error. Did you know that his first language was neither Arabic or English.... I also have used,and at times still do, his translation to study the Quran but over the years I have come across serious flaws in some of his translation and interpertation (please I do not wish to enter into lengthy debate on this...as i have very little knowldge of arabic).
quote:
His translation says, "beat them lightly", so I don't think I have any problem with that because the verse is clear to me (although the guidance of the Prophet (SAW) would still be helpful).
I am glad that it is clear to you...If someone says you can beat someone then there is very little ambiguity. However the degree is a very different matter.
quote:
The person whom you quoted (what's his name anyway?) thinks that the verse isn't clear since it says "beat them", so a person can go on beating as much as he wishes. It's all a matter of interpretation. If he thinks that he needs a Hadeeth on such an issue, he may consult it; I, on the other hand, think that the verse is clear.
So what is your clear interpertation, exactly how much beating is one allowed (Obviousouly it will be useful to those who live in so called Muslim countries-as it will enable them to remain within the law when they decide that their wife deserves a good, or light, beating)
take care
regards |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 1:48 PM
Brother, your views seem to be so against the Prophet (SAW) that I do not feel it necessary to answer your accusations/statements. All I'll say is that I'll continue to follow the Ahaadeeth: The PRophet (SAW) may be dead, but his words still live. If it's so hard for you to understand this, please don't try to force your beliefs on me at least.
Wassalaam, and may Allah guide you. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 4:32 PM
salaam
quote:
Brother, your views seem to be so against the Prophet (SAW) that I do not feel it necessary to answer your accusations/statements
Please dont confuse yourself further. Being against the satanic hadith is not being against the prophet. Your progative whether you wish to answer or not.
quote:
All I'll say is that I'll continue to follow the Ahaadeeth:
Which ones?
quote:
The PRophet (SAW) may be dead, but his words still live
Again exactly which words the ones followed by the shias or sunnis Or perhaps where the prophet forbids anyone from writing what he says...after all that is also a hadith which you appear not to be following.
. quote:
If it's so hard for you to understand this, please don't try to force your beliefs on me at least.
I am sorry i am no more forcing my belief on you as you are on me. What we are doing is exchanging our perspective on Islam. If you consider it forcing my belief on you then apologies.
regards |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 5:29 PM
quote:
Being against the satanic hadith is not being against the prophet.
How can you not be against the Prophet (SAW) if you're against his words? All Ahaadeeth are not fabricated, my brother. Imam Bukhaari was fully aware of the fact that during his time some people had set out to corrupt the Ahaadeeth; his utmost try was to save the Ahaadeeth from corruption! But if you don't want to believe in this fact, it's your wish.
quote:
Which ones?
The authentic ones, of Imam Bukhaari and Muslim, which pass all the criteria of authenticity.
quote:
Again exactly which words the ones followed by the shias or sunnis ...
I don't know which Ahaadeeth the Shias or Sunnis follow, as I'm not a sectarian. Sectarianism is Haraam in Islam. As for me, I only follow the authentic Ahaadeeth, of Bukhaari and Muslim; and Bukhaari's work is considered next to the Qur'an in authenticity.
Wassalaam, and only Allah knows best. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 11:12 PM
sister! do Bukhari, muslim and Abu Daud dusagree in their interpretation of what they believe is authentic hadeeth?
Can I also ask you another question? On one hand you say you do not believe in sectarianism, on the other hand you follow the Bukhari hadith as reliable. On what grounds do you negate the hadeeth, shiat believe in. They have hadeeth from Hazrat Ali and their respective imamas and prove reliable chains to authenticate them. On what ground do you negate their reliable hadeeth? |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 10:24 AM
quote:
sister! do Bukhari, muslim and Abu Daud dusagree in their interpretation of what they believe is authentic hadeeth?
Umm...I don't get your point.
quote:
On what grounds do you negate the hadeeth, shias believe in.
I don't negate their Ahaadeeth. It's just that they follow Hadhrat 'Ali more than the Prophet (SAW). I never knew there were criteria for judging the Ahaadeeth of Hadhrat 'Ali.
See, none of the sects follow the Prophet only or (SAW) completely. They follow the Imaams or other people. So, since I don't belong to any of these sects, I follow only the Prophet (SAW), and the best way I can follow him is through the work of Bukhaari.
And Allah knows best. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 10:44 AM
Salaam
I dont wish to confuse the issue by discussing too many points-I would have prefered to wait until you answerd bro waseem first, but unfortunately I am quite busy over the next few days so may not get the chance to check the site.
Once you have answered waseem-please also answer my earlier point
There are several 'aHadeeth, traceable to the Prophet himself, that prohibit the recording of anything from him except the Qur'an; thus in Ahmad Ibn Hanbal as well as in Muslim we find an identical Hadeeth stating "Abi Sa'eed Al-Khudri, may God be pleased with him, reported that the Messenger of God, may peace be upon him, said, 'Do not write anything from me EXCEPT the Qur'an.
Nida as far as i am aware the so called scholars accept these hadith to be authentic. If you accept this to be true then how do you expalin the existance of hadith.... I am sorry for posting this again but whenever I pose this question the hadith followers always avoid a direct answer.
regards |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 11:06 AM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum my brother. The Hadeeth that you've quoted is no doubt authentic. Muslims who believe in the Ahaadeeth are fully aware of the fact that the Prophet (SAW) at first did not allow his Companions to write down his words. But later on, he did, and so his Companions (RA) began to either remember them or write them down. And Allah knows better.
I now have a question for you: Do you believe in this Hadeeth that you've quoted?
Wassalaam. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 3:51 PM
| sister, Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daud differ in their collection of ahadith considered as authentic. Shiat believe in ahadith of Hazrat Ali as authentic.no problem. till you say ahadith become a source of religion. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 4:02 PM
nida,
quote:
the Prophet (SAW) at first did not allow his Companions to write down his words. But later on, he did
what is the proof of this? Another hadith?!! If so then you are using more hadith to prove another hadith? Circular logic!
The hadith were collected several hundred years after the prophet passed away. had he given permission in his lifetime, then why did people wait so long? |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, December 24, 2006 - 5:08 PM
quote:
sister, Bukhari, Muslim and Abu Daud differ in their collection of ahadith considered as authentic. Shiat believe in ahadith of Hazrat Ali as authentic.no problem. till you say ahadith become a source of religion.
I don't consider Ahaadeeth to be a source of religion, though there is guidance in them.
Quote:
"quote:
the Prophet (SAW) at first did not allow his Companions to write down his words. But later on, he did
what is the proof of this? Another hadith?!!"
No. In fact, I don't have any proof. But this is a part of history. You read the Holy Prophet's (SAW) biography and you get to know that later on he did allow his words to be written down.
Quote:
The hadith were collected several hundred years after the prophet passed away. had he given permission in his lifetime, then why did people wait so long?
Allah knows the answer to this question. But I think this was because of the fact that during the Holy Prophet's (SAW) time, his Companions (RA) had preserved the Ahaadeeth pretty well, so there was no great need of compiling them. A few hundred years later, many people began to corrupt the Ahaadeeth by fabricating them, adding and subtracting from them. So Imaam Bukhari, by the Grace of Allah, took up the task of collecting the uncorrupted Ahaadeeth, and he was, Alhamdulillaah successful.
And Allah knows best.
Wassalaam. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, December 25, 2006 - 7:21 PM
salaam
quote:
Assalaamu 'Alaikum my brother. The Hadeeth that you've quoted is no doubt authentic. Muslims who believe in the Ahaadeeth are fully aware of the fact that the Prophet (SAW) at first did not allow his Companions to write down his words. But later on, he did, and so his Companions (RA) began to either remember them or write them down.
Walikasslaam
Couple of problems here: historically speaking there is no evidence that the prophet actually changed his mind.
Let us for the moment assumed he did change his mind. Then the whole theory of the hadith being part of Islam begins to fall apart. Because the whole basis of hadith being part of Islam is that the prophet was infallible (although the hadith followers for some reason choose to ignore the Quran on this issue). However if the prophet initially banned recording of what he said and then subsequently allowed it then it shows that like other humans he was capable of not being sure, making mistakes and changing his mind. Otherwise how do you explain these contradictions in what he has alleged to have said
quote:
And Allah knows better.
Agreed
quote:
I now have a question for you: Do you believe in this Hadeeth that you've quoted?
My young friend. WhetherI believe the above hadith to be true or not is irrelevent. I have no problem in accepting that some hadith may actually be accurate that does not mean that I accept them as part of Islam. Some hadith being historically accurate in no way makes them part of the religion of Islam.
The Bush administration may have actually made some accurate statements on Iraq (although at present I am struggling to recall one) does not mean that the cock and bull story they made up in order to invade Iraq is true.
If the devil was going to corrupt Islam by bringing in something which God has clearly forbidden in the Quran, he would hardly do so by having everything historically inaccurate. It would then be too obvious even to the most ardent of hadith followers.
regards |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, December 25, 2006 - 7:29 PM
Sorry one point I forgot to adress:
quote:
and so his Companions (RA) began to either remember them or write them down
There is not the slightest evidence that any of the hadith were actually written down at the time of the prophet.
One such example would be appreicated. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 11:02 AM
Brother, I've no idea where you got this information from that the Prophet (SAW) was infallible. He was human, and all humans are capable of making mistakes. It's just that he was the best human and no-one can ever beat him in that.
quote:
There is not the slightest evidence that any of the hadith were actually written down at the time of the prophet.
Please visit the following link:
www.livingislam.org/n/vih_e.html |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 11:49 AM
Salaam Nida
Thank you for the link. The writer has not produced any evidence to back up his claim that the hadith were written down at the time of the prophet. he just states so and expects everyone to assume it to be true. Like most who follow a particular sect he/she is heavily biased towards his own sect and quite convieniently fails to produce any credible evidence.
Apart from this come with this impeccable line:
quote:
The Prophet first forbade the writing of hadith so that people not confuse it with the Qur'an. He then allowed or ordered some Companions to write hadith when there was no risk of confusion
I see what would be the confusion at the beginning that would not be there later on. Anyhow it would be ok to memorise something (from the beginning) but not write it down. Do you think it is less likely to cause confusion to ask someone to commit something to memory than actually have it in a written record!
quote:
Brother, I've no idea where you got this information from that the Prophet (SAW) was infallible. He was human, and all humans are capable of making mistakes. It's just that he was the best human and no-one can ever beat him in that.
I am glad you are clear on the fact that he was only a human. Obviousouly so were all the other prophets and again the Quran is quite clear there is no distinction amongst them.
However my understanding of hadith followers (please correct me if I am wrong) that the prophet was perfect and incapable of making mistakes hence we must follow everything he did and say to become a muslim. Otherwise, as you have now acknowldged, as he was capable
of making mistakes in his daily existance. Then how do you know what you might be following in his, alleged, life and his alleged sayings were not also possible mistakes.
regard |
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Puppy
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 3:32 PM
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