| Author | Topic |
perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Tuesday, January 2, 2007 - 12:27 PM 
Salaam oosman
quote:
This is not maths, this is Islam. And Allah has made religion easy for the common man to understand. Please do not make the same mistake that the Christians did centuries ago - they only allowed their experts to explain holy scripture. The holy scripture should be for everyone.
I am afraid even your simple statement will too much for some to understand. Perhaps they will first need a scholar to expalin and give them an answer.
Every religion has aso called scholars. If one accepts this scholar arguement... Then few simple questions for thos who claim not have much knowldge or understading:
(1)How do you decide which sholars to follow... I mean on what basis have you rejected Hindu, Christian, Buddhist , Atheist scholars etc...Is it purely prejudice of birth place or another reason, because you yourself claim not to have much knowldge or understanding.
(ii) If your scholar gives you three contradictroy statements regarding a very simple topic...do you still consider him a scholar and worth following
(iii) What qualifications do you need to be scholar.
(iv) If you do not have sufficent knowldge and understanding of a topic why are you debating regarding this topic...why not gain sufficent understanding of the topic first.
regards |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 7:48 AM
Posted by -perv1(UNITED KINGDOM) Friday, December 22, 2006 - 1:18 PM
really have you read what the Quran says about the hadith repepeatedly...In fact the only Hadith the Quran says to believe is the Quran.. The Quran is very clear in rejecting all other hadith beside the Quran.. If you do not have the references I will be happy to oblige.
Here is the reference to some of the tasks entrusted to the Prophet s.a.w. in addition to reciting the Ayaat of ALLAH :
(Ibrahim said,) ‘Our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from them to recite Your Signs to them and teach them the Book and Wisdom and purify them. You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.’ (2:129)
For this We sent a Messenger to you from among you to recite Our Signs to you and purify you and teach you the Book and Wisdom and teach you things you did not know before. (2:151)
Allah showed great kindness to the believers when He sent a Messenger to them from among themselves to recite His Signs to them and purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom, even though before that they were clearly misguided. (3:164)
It is He Who raised up among the unlettered people a Messenger from them to recite His Signs to them and purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom, even though before that they were clearly misguided. And others of them who have not yet joined them. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise(62:2-3) |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 1:58 PM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum.
Thankyou brother aboosait for your effort. But you know what? All that perv1's probably gonna do is say that the Prophet (SAW) was only ordered to deliver the Qur'an and nothing else. And then he's gonna give references from the Qur'an trying to prove that his (SAW) duty was only to preach the Qur'an. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, January 3, 2007 - 9:48 PM
Salaam abbosait
My friend if you are going to discuss a topic and quote me at least stick to the topic.
Here is my quote again:
quote:
Posted by -perv1(UNITED KINGDOM) Friday, December 22, 2006 - 1:18 PM
really have you read what the Quran says about the hadith repepeatedly...In fact the only Hadith the Quran says to believe is the Quran.. The Quran is very clear in rejecting all other hadith beside the Quran.. If you do not have the references I will be happy to oblige.
If you care to read my quote again it specifically states the word HADITH i.e what he Quran states about the Hadith.
Below is your answer;
quote:
Here is the reference to some of the tasks entrusted to the Prophet s.a.w. in addition to reciting the Ayaat of ALLAH :
(Ibrahim said,) ‘Our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from them to recite Your Signs to them and teach them the Book and Wisdom and purify them. You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.’ (2:129)
For this We sent a Messenger to you from among you to recite Our Signs to you and purify you and teach you the Book and Wisdom and teach you things you did not know before. (2:151)
Allah showed great kindness to the believers when He sent a Messenger to them from among themselves to recite His Signs to them and purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom, even though before that they were clearly misguided. (3:164)
It is He Who raised up among the unlettered people a Messenger from them to recite His Signs to them and purify them and teach them the Book and Wisdom, even though before that they were clearly misguided. And others of them who have not yet joined them. He is the Almighty, the All-Wise(62:2-3)
Can you tell me anywhere above where the word hadith is mentioned or even a reference to it.
I dont know how much Quran you know. For if you knew your Quran well the topic of hadith is very well covered and is very unambiguous.
I will give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you misunderstood the topic and see if you can bring up the verses from te Quran where the Hadith is directly mentioned....If you are unable to do so then i can only assume that you either are not very familiar with the Quran or you deliberately choose to ignore what the Quran says.
SO OVER TO YOU AND BRING OUT THE REFERENCES WHERE THE QURAN DIRECTLY MENTIONS HADTH.
Salam Nida. I appreciate your lmited knowldge, but if you are going to sensibly discuss anything then i suggest you learn to look at the facts and not start to hang on to the coat tails of anyone you think agrees with your prejudices.
To support your point you gave me link...which you then agreed did not give any evidence.
Then you hoped along with Usmani...who himself admits to limited knowldge and in turn produce some scholar who says the prophet banned haith because (a) Did not want confusion between Qurna and Hadith but then changes his mind and states (b) it was shortage of paper but the goes on to (c)state someone wrote what the prophet said on a wooden board. You accpeted all these as somehow they supported the prejudices that you hold dear.
What you choose to believe or not is between you and Allah but if you are going to discuss something then at least apply some semblance of consistency and logic
regards |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 5:21 AM
quote: "And then he's gonna give references from the Qur'an trying to prove that his (SAW) duty was only to preach the Qur'an."
let us give a chance to say before predicting what he would. fair trial helps both sides 
quote:(Ibrahim said,) ‘Our Lord, raise up among them a Messenger from them to recite Your Signs to them and teach them the Book and Wisdom and purify them. You are the Almighty, the All-Wise.’ (2:129)
a very important verse quoted re: book 'n wisdom. appears thrice in Qura'n as mentioned above by aboosait. we ought to be very clear however about 'book' 'n 'wisdom' mentioned here.
'book' refers to the shariah(the laws given by Allah) and 'Wisdom' entails two values here:
1. Faith(all the basic pillars of faith) and
2. Akhlaqiat i.e. manners/conduct/character/attitudes(this includes the way we interact with eachother on these forums as well btw  )
(info: hafiz ibrahim is away at hajj mash'Allah. hope 'n pray he returns safe 'n successful along with others with haj-e- mabroor. amen)
Edited by: hkhan on Thursday, January 04, 2007 5:42 AM |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 9:14 AM
perv1UNITED KINGDOM Posted - Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 9:48 PM
SO OVER TO YOU AND BRING OUT THE REFERENCES WHERE THE QURAN DIRECTLY MENTIONS HADTH.
At the outset I would advice you to refer to some dictionary or encyclopedia to know the meaning of ‘hadith’ and then learn how this word is used in Arabic under different contexts.
An-Nahl [16:98]
فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ
Faitha qarata alqurana faistaAAith biAllahi mina alshshaytani alrrajeemi
16:98
When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.
إِنَّمَا يَأْمُرُكُمْ بِالسُّوءِ وَالْفَحْشَاء وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
[Shaitân (Satan)] commands you only what is evil and Fahshâ (sinful), and that you should say against Allâh what you know not. (Al-Baqarah 2:169)
Hadith are a source for Islamic history and biography.
The Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims.
However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Quranic rules.
We can look at the way of life, or sunnah, of Muhammad (s.a.w.) and his companions to know how he (s.a.w) or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion a particular verse was revealed and discover what to imitate and what to avoid.
Scholars classify hadith as:
• What Muhammad said (قول) (qawl)
• What Muhammad did (فعل) (fi'l)
• What Muhammad approved (تقرير) (taqrir) in others' actions
There are also hadith relating to the words and deeds of the companions, but they may not have the same weight as those about Muhammad. Accounts of early Islam are also to be found in:
• sira (stories, especially biographies of Muhammad)
• tafsir (commentary on the Qur'an)
• fiqh (juristic reasoning)
Sura 7:157 (Yusuf Ali translation):“Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.”
NOW READ ON AND SEE HOW THE WORD 'HADEWETH' IS USED UNDER DIFFERENT CONTEXTS IN THE QUR'AN
فَلْيَأْتُوا بِحَدِيثٍ مِّثْلِهِ إِن كَانُوا صَادِقِينَ
Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful. (At-Tur 52:34)
اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُّتَشَابِهًا مَّثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاء وَمَن يُضْلِلْ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ
Allâh has sent down the best statement, a Book (this Qur'ân), its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-repeated. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it (when they recite it or hear it). Then their skin and their heart soften to the remembrance of Allâh. That is the guidance of Allâh. He Guides therewith whom He pleases and whomever Allâh sends astray, for him there is no guide. (Az-Zumar 39:23)
وَهَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى
And has there come to you the story of Mûsa (Moses)? (Ta-Ha 20:9)
هَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ ضَيْفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْمُكْرَمِينَ
Has the story reached you, of the honoured guests [three angels; Jibrael (Gabriel) along with another two] of Ibrahîm (Abraham)? (Adh-Dhariyat 51:24)
هَلْ أتَاكَ حَدِيثُمُوسَى
Has there come to you the story of Mûsa (Moses)? (An-Nazi'at 79:15)
فَلَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ عَلَى آثَارِهِمْ إِن لَّمْ يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ أَسَفًا
Perhaps, you, would kill yourself (O Muhammad SAW) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because they believe not in this narration (the Qur'ân). (Al-Kahf 18:6)
أَفَمِنْ هَذَا الْحَدِيثِ تَعْجَبُونَ
Do you then wonder at this recital (the Qur'ân)? (An-Najm 53:59)
أَفَبِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ أَنتُم مُّدْهِنُونَ
Is it such a talk (this Qur'an) that you (disbelievers) deny? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:81)
فَذَرْنِي وَمَن يُكَذِّبُبِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
Then leave Me Alone with such as belie this Qur'ân. We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not. (Al-Qalam 68:44)
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Then in what statement after this (the Qur'ân) will they believe? (Al-Mursalat 77:50)
أَوَلَمْ يَنظُرُواْ فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ مِن شَيْءٍ وَأَنْ عَسَى أَن يَكُونَ قَدِ اقْتَرَبَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things that Allâh has created, and that it may be that the end of their lives is near. In what message after this will they then believe? (Al-A'raf 7:185)
اللّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ لَيَجْمَعَنَّكُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللّهِ حَدِيثًا
Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Surely, He will gather you together on the Day of Resurrection about which there is no doubt. And who is truer in statement than Allâh? (An-Nisa 4:87)
تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ
These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe? (Al-Jathiyah 45:6)
Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.[] (Yusuf 12:111)
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُوًا أُولَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ
And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire). (Luqman 31:6) |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 9:26 AM
Salaam
Thank you for highlighting the following quote:
quote:
quote: "And then he's gonna give references from the Qur'an trying to prove that his (SAW) duty was only to preach the Qur'an."
I am astonished. Is reference from the Quran now worthless. If the references from the Quran prove above then what is the problem or have the hadith corrupted minds so much that so called muslims refuse to accept the evidence from the Quran.
regards |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
 Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 10:39 AM
Ok now that's not what I meant at all!
Just please stop judging everthing I say, ok? |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 11:03 AM
Salaam aboosait
quote:
At the outset I would advice you to refer to some dictionary or encyclopedia to know the meaning of ‘hadith’ and then learn how this word is used in Arabic under different contexts.
Nice one. Cleverly sidestepped the question. Simple question when you, Bukhari or an other use the word hadith what does it mean and when the same word is mentioned in the Quran what do you think it means.
quote:
An-Nahl [16:98]
فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ
Faitha qarata alqurana faistaAAith biAllahi mina alshshaytani alrrajeemi
16:98
When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.
إِنَّمَا يَأْمُرُكُمْ بِالسُّوءِ وَالْفَحْشَاء وَأَن تَقُولُواْ عَلَى اللّهِ مَا لاَ تَعْلَمُونَ
quote:
[Shaitân (Satan)] commands you only what is evil and Fahshâ (sinful), and that you should say against Allâh what you know not. (Al-Baqarah 2:169
)
& the relevance to this topic regarding hadith is?
quote:
Hadith are a source for Islamic history and biography.
Unfortunately not very good one because amongst other things they contradict each other. In my understanding contradiction naturally means a lie. 2ndly they the portray the man to whom the Quran was revealed as a peadophile, sexual pervert and cruel man and you still accept them as being accurate?
quote:
The Qur'an contains many rules for the behavior expected of Muslims.
CORRECT.
quote:
However, there are many matters of concern, both religious and practical, on which there are no specific Quranic rules.
CORRECT AGIAN..
However if your point is that Laws not in the Quran can be found in Hadith....is absolutely 100% incorrect because there are zillions of laws that are required in our every day existance which are not covered by hadith or the Qurn speCifically. sO LETS PUT THIS SILLY POINT THAT HADITH SOMEHOW COVER ALL THE RULE & REGULATION NOT COVERED BY THE QURAN.
However your prejudices again distort your logic by below:
quote:
quote:
We can look at the way of life, or sunnah, of Muhammad (s.a.w.) and his companions to know how he (s.a.w) or his companions explained the revelations, or upon what occasion a particular verse was revealed and discover what to imitate and what to avoid.
Scholars classify hadith as:
• What Muhammad said (قول) (qawl)
• What Muhammad did (فعل) (fi'l)
• What Muhammad approved (تقرير) (taqrir) in others' actions
There are also hadith relating to the words and deeds of the companions, but they may not have the same weight as those about Muhammad. Accounts of early Islam are also to be found in:
• sira (stories, especially biographies of Muhammad)
• tafsir (commentary on the Qur'an)
• fiqh (juristic reasoning)
You are very fond of your SELF SELECTED SHOLARS that is your choice. They have no divine or religious merit they are simply people of differnt ability and integrity and their quotes understanding in no way prove or disprove a particular point.
If you wish to discuss merits of Islam then I suggest you stick to the Quran and critically analyse and discuss it. Otherwise the whole discussion become meaningless.
quote:
Sura 7:157 (Yusuf Ali translation):“Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the Law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper.”
If you had any knowldge of the Quran you would know that Allah forbade Mohd to teach anything other than the Quran...with that knowldge how can then you not see that God is referring to what is forbidden, evil, lawful etc as quoted in the Quran.
Of course people follow thier leader regarding the Laws that are establishedNot how leader washes himself, eats drinks or conducts his personal life. You and the hadith followers fail to grasp this very simple point.
quote:
NOW READ ON AND SEE HOW THE WORD 'HADEWETH' IS USED UNDER DIFFERENT CONTEXTS IN THE QUR'AN
Ok here we go:
فَلْيَأْتُوا بِحَدِيثٍ مِّثْلِهِ إِن كَانُوا صَادِقِينَ
Let them then produce a recital like unto it (the Qur'ân) if they are truthful. (At-Tur 52:34)
Interesting you choose not to leave the word hadith in its original form (do you pschological problem with this word when mentioned in the Quran). Even accepting your translation here..IS GOD HERE NOT FORBIDDING YOU TO PRODUCE ANOTHER RECITAL OTHER THAN THE Quran.
Now tell me where does it allow for your version of the hadith? i.e why are you guys quoting another recital, hadith or whateevr you want to call it....My firend i suggest you read the sura you have quoted very carefully.
quote:
اللَّهُ نَزَّلَ أَحْسَنَ الْحَدِيثِ كِتَابًا مُّتَشَابِهًا مَّثَانِيَ تَقْشَعِرُّ مِنْهُ جُلُودُ الَّذِينَ يَخْشَوْنَ رَبَّهُمْ ثُمَّ تَلِينُ جُلُودُهُمْ وَقُلُوبُهُمْ إِلَى ذِكْرِ اللَّهِ ذَلِكَ هُدَى اللَّهِ يَهْدِي بِهِ مَنْ يَشَاء وَمَن يُضْلِلْ اللَّهُ فَمَا لَهُ مِنْ هَادٍ
Allâh has sent down the best statement, a Book (this Qur'ân),
Intersting you changed it to statement..I mean why not leave it in its original form...Anyhow despite this, excellent no disagreement here.
quote:
its parts resembling each other in goodness and truth, oft-repeated. The skins of those who fear their Lord shiver from it (when they recite it or hear it). Then their skin and their heart soften to the remembrance of Allâh. That is the guidance of Allâh. He Guides therewith whom He pleases and whomever Allâh sends astray, for him there is no guide. (Az-Zumar 39:23)
If you study the Quran that statement is completely unambiguous and does not in any way justify existance of non Quranic recitals (hadith) that you choose to follow.
quote:
وَهَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ مُوسَى
And has there come to you the story of Mûsa (Moses)? (Ta-Ha 20:9)
Ok!
quote:
هَلْ أَتَاكَ حَدِيثُ ضَيْفِ إِبْرَاهِيمَ الْمُكْرَمِينَ
Has the story reached you, of the honoured guests [three angels; Jibrael (Gabriel) along with another two] of Ibrahîm (Abraham)? (Adh-Dhariyat 51:24)
Ok!
quote:
هَلْ أتَاكَ حَدِيثُمُوسَى
Has there come to you the story of Mûsa (Moses)? (An-Nazi'at 79:15)
quote:
فَلَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ عَلَى آثَارِهِمْ إِن لَّمْ يُؤْمِنُوا بِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ أَسَفً
ا
So the story of Moses ok.
quote:
Perhaps, you, would kill yourself (O Muhammad SAW) in grief, over their footsteps (for their turning away from you), because they believe not in this narration (the Qur'ân). (Al-Kahf 18:6) [/quote quote:
]أَفَمِنْ هَذَا الْحَدِيثِ تَعْجَبُونَ
Ok!
Waiting fot your point.
quote:
Do you then wonder at this recital (the Qur'ân)? (An-Najm 53:59)
quote:
أَفَبِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ أَنتُم مُّدْهِنُونَ
This recital, hadith etc referring to the Quran. Yes well Ok!
quote:
Is it such a talk (this Qur'an) that you (disbelievers) deny? (Al-Waqi'ah 56:81)
No one here is denying the Quran...but you are not suggesting that it equates to Bhkhari et al Hadith are you? Because what you have provide above is very clear & refers to Quran only.
quote:
فَذَرْنِي وَمَن يُكَذِّبُبِهَذَا الْحَدِيثِ سَنَسْتَدْرِجُهُم مِّنْ حَيْثُ لَا يَعْلَمُونَ
Then leave Me Alone with such as belie this Qur'ân. We shall punish them gradually from directions they perceive not. (Al-Qalam 68:44)
Ok fine!
quote:
فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Then in what statement after this (the Qur'ân) will they believe? (Al-Mursalat 77:50)
Is the above not crystal clear not to believe in any statement after the Quran. Even after this what possible reason do you have foR believing any statement(s) other than the Quran.
quote:
أَوَلَمْ يَنظُرُواْ فِي مَلَكُوتِ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالأَرْضِ وَمَا خَلَقَ اللّهُ مِن شَيْءٍ وَأَنْ عَسَى أَن يَكُونَ قَدِ اقْتَرَبَ أَجَلُهُمْ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَهُ يُؤْمِنُونَ
Do they not look in the dominion of the heavens and the earth and all things that Allâh has created, and that it may be that the end of their lives is near. In what message after this will they then believe? (Al-A'raf 7:185)
YET ANOTHER SURA YOU HAVE QUOTED WHICH CONTRADICTS YOUR VIEW POINT.
IS ALLAH NOT AGAIN VERY CLEAR IN FORBIDDING YOU TO BELIEVE IN ANY MESSAGE OTHER THAN THE QURAN.
I SUGGEST YOU READ THE THESE TWO SURAS(QUOTED BY YOU) AGAIN
quote:
اللّهُ لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ لَيَجْمَعَنَّكُمْ إِلَى يَوْمِ الْقِيَامَةِ لاَ رَيْبَ فِيهِ وَمَنْ أَصْدَقُ مِنَ اللّهِ حَدِيثًا
Allâh! Lâ ilâha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Surely, He will gather you together on the Day of Resurrection about which there is no doubt. And who is truer in statement than Allâh? (An-Nisa 4:87)
Again agreed...No ONE CAN PRODUCE TRUER STATEMENT THAN ALLAH...Above does not say Bukhari et al can produce statement like Allah does it.
I suggest you read what you have posted again.
quote:
تِلْكَ آيَاتُ اللَّهِ نَتْلُوهَا عَلَيْكَ بِالْحَقِّ فَبِأَيِّ حَدِيثٍ بَعْدَ اللَّهِ وَآيَاتِهِ يُؤْمِنُونَ
These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe? (Al-Jathiyah 45:6)
Yet again Allah is forbidding to believe in any speech (recital, hadith or what ever meaning you choose to give) other than the recital, speech etc of the Quran.
Now tell me in the light of the above suras why do you still continue to believe in speeches outside the Quran or do you not believe what the Quran is telling you/
quote:
Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.[] (Yusuf 12:111)
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَن يَشْتَرِي لَهْوَ الْحَدِيثِ لِيُضِلَّ عَن سَبِيلِ اللَّهِ بِغَيْرِ عِلْمٍ وَيَتَّخِذَهَا هُزُوًا أُولَئِكَ لَهُمْ عَذَابٌ مُّهِينٌ
Yes of course- Torah & Injeel mentioned by name...where are Bukhari et al mentioned above.
quote:
And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, the Verses of the Qur'ân) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire). (Luqman 31:6)
Please dont become confused. Quran followers do not mock the Quran verses. If anything this applies to hadith followers for they refuse to follow what the Quran tells them (read the verses you have quoted) FOR IT IS CLEAR THAT QURAN FORBIDS ANY HADITH (SPEECH, RECITAL, SAYINGS OR ANOTHER MEANING) OTHER THAN THE QURAN TO BE FOLLOWED OR BELIEVED.
ps the brackets in the Quran translation are the translators interpertation and not necessarily the real meaning (not a point for discussion-just for clarification).
regards
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 11:12 AM
Salaam Nida
quote:
Ok now that's not what I meant at all!
Just please stop judging everthing I say, ok?
Perhaps you did not. One can go by what you have written. I am not judging you simply replying to your statemnt. Just little more thought before you hit the key board might avoid many misunderstandings.
regards |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 11:32 AM
Dear Oosman
Quote:-This is not maths, this is Islam. And Allah has made religion easy for the common man to understand. Please do not make the same mistake that the Christians did centuries ago - they only allowed their experts to explain holy scripture. The holy scripture should be for everyone.
No brother I am not convinced, our problem is not like Christian one.We Muslims are free to have our scripture on our hand.Now even though we have the Quran with us but the truth is that we average Muslims are not able to understood it by our own not even a single verse.Now we have to admit that we have no choice but to rely on some ones translation and interpetation.So now what should a good person will do is to thanks of all those schelors whom have made our job easier rather than cursing them always and along with it also taking help from their work.They are the people who devoted their entire life for serving the religion.
Narrated AbuHurayrah: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: He who does not thank Allah does not thank people. (Sunan Abudawud Book #41, Hadith #4793)
Quote:- If individuals like you and me start using our own intellect that God gave us and choose right from wrong using our moral meter, then there cannot be any more chaos then is already out there,
That’s good we must not stick to just a single scholar or two,we must explore as many people as we can and select the best out of it by using our own intellet.As far as the matter of hadith is, you will hardly find any scholar who goes against how I am explaining hadith here by using the work of great scholar of current times.
Franly speaking when I used to see the views perv1 regarding ahadith,I always get surprised and think that where all this he got it from?What is the source of it?If non of the great scholars says so neither Quran then from where he got it from .To me its only left one person who is explaining things to him is only shitan. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 12:54 PM
Salaam Usmani
quote:
Franly speaking when I used to see the views perv1 regarding ahadith,I always get surprised and think that where all this he got it from?What is the source of it?If non of the great scholars says so neither Quran then from where he got it from .To me its only left one person who is explaining things to him is only shitan.
No one is born with knowldge. It is acquired from variety of sources including teachers, books, life experiences etc. However at the end of day you alone are responsible for analysing the knowldge that you have acquired and deciphering right from wrong.
Many people, esp you (and it is not intended as an insult but an observation from the way you appear approach any subject)abandon this simple responsiblity, clearly stated in the Quran, and start to quote scholar X and y to prove your point. Without even vaguely realising that the scholar you are quoting might be cotradicting him/herself.
Even if one accepts your arguement regarding scholars...You fail to grasp a very simple point that there are scholars in every sect of Islam and other religions and even Atheism. Even to know which scholar to follow you have to have some knowldge and ability to judge the merits of their arguement.
This quote below completely demonstrates you lack of knowldge and thinking process.
quote:
What is the source of it?If non of the great scholars says so neither Quran then from where he got it from
If you had bothered to read what i have posted. I very rarely (if at all) use any other source than the Quran. NOT USING YOUR SCHOLARS DOES NOT MEAN NOT USING THE QURAN...CHEcK MY POSTS AGAIN.
The fact that you could not find any scholar that agrees my with view point illustrates your poverty of knowldge...Your assumption here is that the only scholars are the ones you have heard of: For examle there is famous non Muslim Scholar: Bertrand Russel who not only wrote regarding religion but is considered one the foremost authorities in Mathematics & Philosophy. Have you read any of his work? Karen Armstrong writes on all religions (Exceptionally well and with great knowldge) have you heard or read any of her work. Have you studied Ghulam Pervaiz or even Sir Syed syed Khan (founder of Aligarh University). Have you studied Buddhism, hinduism, Christianity, Judaism & other religions to understand what they have in common with Islam or where they disagree with Islam.
Islam encompasses Spirtuality, politics, economics, medicine, science, geography, physics etc and one needs to grasp of all these to be able have some understanding of Islam before one can be considered any sorth of authority never mind a scholar.
Do not be like a frog in a well who thinks that he has conquered the whole world because he cannot see beyond the the well that he is in.
If you continue to follow any scholar(s) because you feel you do not have the knowldge or understanding then that is up to you but do not judge those of us who refuse to follow blindly.
Just for your information...I teach/supervise many postgraduates and undergraduates...the point I always emphasise do not accept anything blindly and never be afraid to question anything you disagree with.
As for the Shaitan do you think he is likely to mislead someone who uses his intelligence (as mentioned by the Quran) or someone who will follow blindly some one he considers to be scholar.
regards |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 3:53 PM
quote:
there are zillions of laws that are required in our every day existance which are not covered by hadith or the Qurn speCifically.
Please elaborate |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 4:09 PM
quote:
they portray the man to whom the Quran was revealed as a peadophile, sexual pervert and cruel man and you still accept them as being accurate?
1. WHO ARE 'THEY'?
2. PROVE YOUR STATEMENT WITH EVIDENCES |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 4:29 PM
quote:
As for the Shaitan do you think he is likely to mislead someone who uses his intelligence (as mentioned by the Quran) or someone who will follow blindly some one he considers to be scholar.
When Allah The Most High revealed the following command He has not laid down the above conditions
.
An-Nahl [16:98]فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ
Faitha qarata alqurana faistaAAith biAllahi mina alshshaytani alrrajeemi
16:98
When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, January 4, 2007 - 8:45 PM
salaam aboosait
Intersting you have not replied to my comments on the refernces you yourself provided from the Quran...re hadith. An honest reply will be appreciated as for your posting:
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
there are zillions of laws that are required in our every day existance which are not covered by hadith or the Qurn speCifically.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Please elaborate [/quote
The hadith followers often misguidedly quote that the Quran does not contain all the laws that are required to live in this world and hadith does...which anyone with an ounce of intelligence will see that it is not true. Very simple example Transport plays a huge role in our every day life today can you find a reference from hadith about speeds on a highway...I hope you get the point.
quote:
----------------------------------------
they portray the man to whom the Quran was revealed as a peadophile, sexual pervert and cruel man and you still accept them as being accurate?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
1. WHO ARE 'THEY'?
2. PROVE YOUR STATEMENT WITH EVIDENCES
They are HADITH
PROVE my statement..Have you not bothered to study the very literature that you claim represents islamic history and is supposedly divine.
If you can be bothered to study hadith you will find: that prophet Mohd married a 6 yr old girl
Was able to have sex with over dozen women in a night
Gorged the eyes of some men who killed his camel.
I suggest you study hadith a little bit more before you start debating them.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
quote:
As for the Shaitan do you think he is likely to mislead someone who uses his intelligence (as mentioned by the Quran) or someone who will follow blindly some one he considers to be scholar.
When Allah The Most High revealed the following command He has not laid down the above conditions
.
An-Nahl [16:98]فَإِذَا قَرَأْتَ الْقُرْآنَ فَاسْتَعِذْ بِاللّهِ مِنَ الشَّيْطَانِ الرَّجِيمِ
Faitha qarata alqurana faistaAAith biAllahi mina alshshaytani alrrajeemi
16:98
When thou dost read the Qur'an, seek Allah's protection from Satan the rejected one.
I am sure that makes sense to you. Because it makes none to me.
It is obvious you did not understand my initial quote, because if you are familiar with the Quran you will be aware that Allah tells us that he has given us sight, hearing and intelligence and dont accept anything you cannot varify yourself.
regards
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