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Junaidj
CANADA
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 Topic initiated on Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 9:52 AM 
Miracles and Belief
Some Muslims argue that the trees aligned in Germany in form of Kalimah, or various other natural phenomena that depict Allah on Potato or Cow or other objects is a testimony to their faith.
However, what of the appearance of the Virgin Mary on a toast, or various places where she is believed to have appeared. Is that a testimony to a Catholic's faith?
Or perhaps miracles in recovery and other matters witnessed by Sufis, Hindu Rishis et al. Does that buttress their respective faiths?
Edited by: junaidj on Thursday, November 18, 2004 9:55 AM |
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peter_kalve
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 12:52 PM 
| Asalaamu'alaikum! I suspect that in all these cases, the "miracle" is very much in the eye of the beholder. One cannot help but feel distaste, for example, for the silliness of a bagel-shop owner who proudly displays a bagel in his New York shop front window with the flashing notice "The Ear of Mother Theresa"! The same must be said of those who claim they see the word "Allah" emblazoned upon the skin of a potato or even upon a cow. What if (Allah forbid!) the sacred name was claimed to be seen upon the hide of a pig? May Allah free us from such nonsense, and direct us to worship him alone, in joyfulness of heart, knowing that he is still the ever-merciful, the all-compassionate One. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 2:37 PM
I think, a belief based on "miracles" would be a very weak belief. The prophets, too, were shown miracles not so that those who paid heed would believe, but so that those who didn't pay heed had no bases left except their own arrogance and stubborness.
Wasalaam. |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 7:55 PM
>>I think, a belief based on "miracles" would be a very weak belief.
What of Virgin Mary appearing? Does it not already buttress what Catholics believe. Is this another test by the Almighty? Is He leading them astray? |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 8:37 PM
quote:
>>I think, a belief based on "miracles" would be a very weak belief.
What of Virgin Mary appearing? Does it not already buttress what Catholics believe. Is this another test by the Almighty? Is He leading them astray?
It is a test, yes. But don't you think a Christian's belief would be more sound if he/she were to believe in what was preached by Eesa, alahissalaam, rather than bank their faiths on "Virgin Mary". I wrote earlier that miracles gave the prophets, absolute leeway over their most stringent opponents; I should also have mentioned, that as for those who "already" believed, this served to garnish their faiths.
Don't think that God only tests the followers of Eesa, alahissalaam, through this amazing miracle. If you see an illiterate/uneducated man (read, "unlettered), walking out from the jungles of Swat(read, "isolation"), giving to you something greater than Iqbal has ever been able to offer, would that not be a test for you? It would. The miracle of Prophet Muhammad, sws, was the Qur'an.
I hope you see my line of argument.
Wasalaam. |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004 - 9:45 PM
>> It is a test, yes.
Why would the Almighty lead them toward the wrong conclusions through all these appearances? |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:22 AM
quote:
>> It is a test, yes.
Why would the Almighty lead them toward the wrong conclusions through all these appearances?
Lead them? I'm sorry. I don't understand your question. Tests are called test, because they have the capacity to lead you either way. They are the means by which our destiny in the Hereafter will be determined. If God were to simply 'lead' people this way or that way, then the purpose of the world would not be.
Am I getting your question?
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 8:29 AM
>> Am I getting your question?
The question is that accepted some people are not on the right track, according to our beliefs. Now obviously they are in error whether they realize it or not. Then why these appearances that confirm what they already believe. That only leads them further away from the truth. Now doesn't it?
Edited by: junaidj on Friday, November 19, 2004 9:12 AM |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:16 AM
quote:
>> Am I getting your question?
The question is that accepted some people are not on the right track, according to our beliefs. Now obviously they are in error. Then why these appearances that confirm what they already believe. That only leads them further away from the truth. Now does'nt it?
Oh, appearances, you mean as in a bag of bagels etc.? No, I think its upto every individual to decipher what needs attention, and what doesn't. For instance, not so long ago, people were crazy about the mathematical accuracy of the Qur'an (like the mention of 'days' appearing 365 times in the book, and so on). I don't think these are things we need to concentrate on.
For all you know, God may make Himself visible to us, and we may renounce our faith saying that He is supposed to be Unseen. So miracles or no miracles, the object of emphases has to be deciphered by man himself. When you have websites like suralikeit.com and answering-islam.org, don't you think they are tests for Muslims. My point is: whether you're a Christian, a Muslim or an agnostic, you'll be kept in a constant state of trial - the nature of these trials may be different, however.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:45 AM
quote:
>> Am I getting your question?
The question is that accepted some people are not on the right track, according to our beliefs.
I tend to believe that God gives everyone a fair chance at getting to believe in His Oneness. As for those who keep ignoring, He helps them go far and deep into ignorance; the opposite goes for those who pay heed. However, I don't think that you, I or any one of us can determine who stands where. Agreed? |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 9:55 AM
I agree with what you say. But I suppose given the rampant confusion that we already have about various issues and matters, we dont need these bagel appearances :) to add to the confusion. Now do we?
See at the end of the day, what do we fall back to? The Koran and the Sunnah. Now what if sites like answering-islam actually do convince people into believing that perhaps there is reason to doubt the authenticity of those two sources as well. The textual variants criticism, Joseph Katz's incessant criticism of the Koranic verses and what not?
We dont know the resolutions, the answers to every criticism raised. Yet we retain our faith doggedly. Hence faith is based on something more intrinsic than arguments alone.
That is why you have people who retain their firm faith in violence through Jihad. They will not budge an inch even if you translate the whole Bible into Latin for such people.
The same goes for us, at the end of the day, we are all fundamentalists, whether we like it or not. We all cling onto some belief sets shaped by our life experiences and the people we meet. Sometimes we change and sometimes we dont.
I guess given all the above, the bagel appearances only add to that intrinsic belief set we all retain.
The Divine really has some sense of humour, now does He? |
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surgeonakhlaq
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 24, 2004 - 9:19 PM
Many years ago, there was an excursion of the students to the bridge of a biggest river. Eight students decided to have a view of the river by a boat. So they hired a boat and started. When the boat reached in the centre of the river, it lost its balance due to high speed water and stated bizarre movements in all the planes; as a result all the students were ejected out of the boat into the water and the boat started drowning too. During the movements of the boat when its one side dipped into the water and again moved up towards surface of the water, it taken out one of the students to the surface who caught some part of the boat firmly and maintained and meanwhile his life was saved in a miracle by another boat which rushed at the site. Other seven students drowned while only single one whose life was saved by Allah Almighty is still alive and is a specialist doctor.
May Allah bless the souls of the dead students, Aameen. |
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