| Author | Topic |
saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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 Topic initiated on Sunday, December 5, 2004 - 7:13 PM 
Mahr
What, in your understanding, is the purpose of Mahr? What is its significance? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 6:50 PM 
Assalam alaikum,
Bismillah-hir-Rahman-nir-Raheem
Assalam Alaikum,
In my study of reading certain verses of Sura Baqarah, I came across certain rules regarding talaq. And I learned some rules about mehr pertaining to talaq. So my post is about mehr with regard to talaq. I use my own translation of the Quran and I am not a scholar.
2.229
"...And it is not permissible for you (men) that you take from something that you gave them (women), except that the two of them fear that they will not be able to establish limits set by Allah"
The men are not allowed to ask the women to return the gifts and the mehr and anything else they may have gifted them.
"then if the two of them fear that they will not be able to establish the limits set by Allah, then no harm on them in whatever she gifts to him,"
If they fear they are unable to do justice in dividing the property, then it is acceptable for the man to take what the woman offers him from the gifts he had previously given her.
"these are the limits set by Allah, then do not transgress them, and ones who transgress limits set by Allah, then they are those who are oppressors."
2.230:
"Then if he gives her talaq (third time), then she is not permissible for him from after giving of talaq unless she has nikah with one other than her spouse, then if he divorces her, then no harm on the two if they re-join, if they wish that the limits set by Allah be established."
The talaq is like a bullet. A man has three of these bullets. It is advisable not to fire all three at once. If he gives talaq once, then they wait up to three periods. Now there are three options:
1-They can either reconcile and join, the man treating her equitably after reconciliation. No new nikah or mehr is required.
2-They can continue till the end of the three periods silently, not having intercourse, and part their ways at the end, the man treating her with kindness and not dumping her out on the street. If they want to join again after this, then they have to do nikah and man has to pay mehr to her if she asks for her right of mehr.
3-This verse here sets the decree for the third case when the man has given the talaq already three times. In this case, the only way he can have her back if she gets married to another man and this man gave her talaq later. This cannot be pre-planned just for the sake of joining the first husband, the second marriage cannot be a sham.
"and these are the limits set by Allah, He makes them clear to you O nation of understanding."
2.236:
"There is no sin on you if you give talaq to the women when you have not touched them or obligated on to them the obligation (i.e. mehr), and endow them (gift), rich according to his means, poor according to his means, an endowment that is apprpriate/reasonable, a duty on the doers of good."
From above verse it is clear that the mehr is not a necessary condition of nikah. The woman has the right to demand mehr, but if she does not demand mehr, the nikah can still take place. (The necessar condition of nikah is the presence of two witnesses.)
2.237:
"And if you give them talaq before having touched them, and you obligated on them the obligatoin (i.e. mehr), then pay half of what the obligation is (1/2 of mehr), accept that they forego it, or they, in whose hands is the knot of nikah, forego it, and that they forego it is nearer to taqwa, and do not forget the 'fadzl' between you (all), indeed Allah sees what you do."
Now if the mehr amount was established, but the husband and wife have not had intercourse yet, and husband gives talaq, then he is only required to pay half the amount of the established mehr. If the wife agrees not to have any mehr at all, she can do that.
The next part of the verse, I have heard two views on it. With regard to those in whose hands is the knot of the nikah, one opinion I heard was it is the guardian or wali of the woman. The other view is it is the husband. In any case, whoever it is, he or they can choose to forego the mehr. If it is the guardian of the woman he can choose to forego the mehr and not demand any of it on behalf of the woman. If it means the husband, then he can choose to forego and give all the mehr. Foregoing the mehr is closer to God consciousness (taqwa).
I could not figure a good translation for fadzl.
So this was a summary of the rules regarding mehr in talaq. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, December 7, 2004 - 7:02 PM
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 8:29 AM
quote:
"then if the two of them fear that they will not be able to establish the limits set by Allah, then no harm on them in whatever she gifts to him," (2:229)
If they fear they are unable to do justice in dividing the property, then it is acceptable for the man to take what the woman offers him from the gifts he had previously given her.
Assalaamu Alaikum.
Brother, could you please explain what you mean by "diving property" here?
quote:
2.230:
"Then if he gives her talaq (third time), then she is not permissible for him from after giving of talaq unless she has nikah with one other than her spouse, then if he divorces her, then no harm on the two if they re-join, if they wish that the limits set by Allah be established."
2. They can continue till the end of the three periods silently, not having intercourse, and part their ways at the end, the man treating her with kindness and not dumping her out on the street. If they want to join again after this, then they have to do nikah and man has to pay mehr to her if she asks for her right of mehr.
You mean, if they do not decide against divorce during the waiting period; rather, wish to re-join each other once it is over? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 5:54 PM
Assalam alaikum,
One scenario I can think of where they fear they might not be able to do justice is where they have some property and they do not remmember if it was part of mehr, or if it belongs to the husband or the wife. Over the years, this can easily happen. Early in the marriage out of love they will say whats mine is yours and whats yours is mine, and they will share each other's things. Over time they loose track of who actually owned something in the beginning. So when talaq occurs, it is time to divide the property, and one might end up taking what was not rightfully his or hers to begin with. This can easily happen with common hosue hold utensils, furniture, equipment like tv, vcr, etc. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 5:58 PM
For your second question, basically answer is yes.
If man gives talaq, and they silently wait, and the 3 periods elapse in silence, then one talaq is final and they have to part their ways.
However if before the 3 periods have completed, they can reconcile.
After the 3 periods have elapsed, if they want to reconcile, they have to do nikah again and she can choose a new mehr. They can still marry because with silence after talaq and 3 periods passing, it is considered 1 talaq.
If the man in foolishness or anger utters talaq 3 times, then that is 3 talaq and they cannot do nikah unless she marries someone else and gets khula from him.
There is really no need to utter talaq 3 times, because one will do the job just as well. |
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surgeonakhlaq
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 8:26 PM
Oosman, United States of America
Quote1: The talaq is like a bullet. A man has three of these bullets. It is advisable not to fire all three at once. If he gives talaq once, then they wait up to three periods. Now there are three options:
The world of talaq is already very painful for women and use of the world “bullet” I think is not suitable.
Quote2: (The necessar condition of nikah is the presence of two witnesses.)
In addition to the two witnesses for the consent of the both bride and groom, declaration of “Nikah” in front of the community is also necessary. It is not necessary that nobody know except only 4 or 5 persons. If only 4 or 5 person are sufficient at the time of “Nikah” and the husband and wife are walking together somewhere, then 6th, 7th …………persons etc will be satisfied or not. Islam is a system free of all the doubts but sometimes unfortunately even the parents do not know. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 8:29 PM
quote:
For your second question, basically answer is yes.
If man gives talaq, and they silently wait, and the 3 periods elapse in silence, then one talaq is final and they have to part their ways.
However if before the 3 periods have completed, they can reconcile.
After the 3 periods have elapsed, if they want to reconcile, they have to do nikah again and she can choose a new mehr. They can still marry because with silence after talaq and 3 periods passing, it is considered 1 talaq.
If the man in foolishness or anger utters talaq 3 times, then that is 3 talaq and they cannot do nikah unless she marries someone else and gets khula from him.
There is really no need to utter talaq 3 times, because one will do the job just as well.
Assalaamu Alaikum.
Thank you for the clarifications. Regading your first answer, I understand what you have to offer. As for the second answer, I am afraid I don't quite capture how you derive your interpretation through the said verses of the Qur'an.
Doesn't "3 talaqs" mean the permission to retract talaaq thrice; rather than being able to divorce one's wife three times (each time, with the three periods elapsed). I don't understand how you infer that the allowance of three divorces refers to divorcing one's wife, and then, being able to re-marry her with a fresh nikah and mehr, twice, the third being the last time, requiring re-marriage of the lady to another man and then, a divorce from him.
I think if you accept three effective divorces in the way I think you've offered, then it would very well become a joke in marriages, which, we would agree, is not what Islam requires.
Humbly,
Saadia |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, December 8, 2004 - 10:28 PM
Assalam alaikum,
First to answer surgeonakhlaq, the only Islamic legal requirement for nikah that I am aware of is the presence of two witnesses, as is true for any transaction or deal (refer to Quran 2.282). It is not a requirement that you have fanfare and lot of people present or a maulvi present to do the khutba. Even mehr is not necessary if the girl waives her right. All these things are good to have, and it is always good to remove all kinds of suspicion and announce the nikah, but we should not make the optional into a requirement. You may consult some Islamic scholar also.
Next to saadiamalik, the Quranic injunction is pretty clear. Please read 2.229 and 2.230 (I did not quote the complete verses above, so perhaps that is why there is the confusion).
A man cannot directly re-marry his ex-wife if he has given her talaq 3 times. This automatically means that if he has not given her talaq 3 times (i.e. he has given her talaq once or twice), then if they reconcile, they may live together.
Since the term of consumation of talaq is 3 menstrual periods, a talaq is not completed if 3 menstrual periods have not elapsed since invocation of talaq. That is why there is no need for nikah for reconciliation before the 3 menstrual periods elapse after invocation of talaq.
If however the 3 menstrual periods have elapsed after invocation of talaq, then talaq is complete. Now if they want to be together again, they would have to do nikah like any Muslim man and woman do. After the talaq is finalized, the man and woman are not halal for each other. Nikah can make it halal.
But if they keep on playing this game of nikah and talaq 3 times, then the woman has to do nikah with some other man and get talaq from him before she can do nikah with the first guy. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 1:36 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum.
Being able to divorce a lady twice, and simply renewing the same relationship with her by a nikah, seems to support a 'playing games' culture. What is the logic behind such a permission, if it is there in the first place? Please help me understand.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 5:37 PM
Assalam alaikum,
All I can add now is that this is my understanding of the rules set by Allah (swt). They are pretty straight forward.
It does sound like a game if you keep doing nikah-divorce over and over. But Allah (swt) is merciful and out of His mercy He has allowed more chances to those who play with emotions and in their moment of irrationality and stupidity keep getting divorced. He has allowed 2 chances. Third time is the limit. No more they can get married without the woman first going through nikah and talaq with a different man.
I would like to know what was the historic context of these verses. May be the Arabs were playing games like nikah-talaq over and over, and Allah set a limit. If someone knows about this, please shed some light.
And Allah (swt) knows best. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, December 9, 2004 - 10:18 PM
quote:
Assalam alaikum,
All I can add now is that this is my understanding of the rules set by Allah (swt). They are pretty straight forward.
It does sound like a game if you keep doing nikah-divorce over and over. But Allah (swt) is merciful and out of His mercy He has allowed more chances to those who play with emotions and in their moment of irrationality and stupidity keep getting divorced. He has allowed 2 chances. Third time is the limit. No more they can get married without the woman first going through nikah and talaq with a different man.
I would like to know what was the historic context of these verses. May be the Arabs were playing games like nikah-talaq over and over, and Allah set a limit. If someone knows about this, please shed some light.
And Allah (swt) knows best.
Assalaamu Alaikum.
Thank you very much for your patience. Jazak'Allah.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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Irsalfwalsh
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, December 10, 2004 - 1:05 AM
salas
mahr is compulsory but I have following questions in my mind.
1. can the amount of mahr support a woman, if divorced?
2. can the amount of mehr handcuff a husband to divorce his wife or do second, third or fourth marriage?
anyone to add to the knowledge. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, December 10, 2004 - 10:21 AM
Assalam alaikum,
As I have stated before quoting verse 2.236 above, mehr is not compulsory for nikah.
Verse 2.241 states that the divorced women should be provided a suitable maintenance, stating that this is a duty upon the God conscious. To my understanding this money does not seem to be part of mehr but is separate. How much the appropriate maintenance is, that matter is left for the couple to decide, depending on their cost of living, place, etc. For a rich couple, the maintenance money of the divorced wife would obviously be more than that of a poor couple.
I do not understand your second point. Please explain. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, December 11, 2004 - 3:58 PM
quote:
I do not understand your second point. Please explain.
I think what he's asking is that can the husband's inability to pay the mahr be reason enough for him to divorce her instead?
Or perhaps, that if he doesn't pay mahr, can the lady seek divorce on these grounds?
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, January 2, 2005 - 6:25 PM
| I do not believe that the Shariah places any restrictions for divorce. If one of them is not happy, they can file for divorce, no matter what the reason is. In Sura Baqara as quoted previously, the man may not stop the woman from leaving, that would be transgression. This is to the best of my knowledge, and Allah Ta-aala knows best. |
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