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Junaidj
CANADA
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 Posted - Friday, November 12, 2004 - 2:04 AM 
>>Some people say me you think like mullass.
>>Woman should
>>She should
>>She should also
>>She should share
>>She should also meet
>>I advise all of our boaring sisters and mothers
>>Except that i advise them
If you are excessively going to use the word 'should', condescend and patronize women as if they were children, and act like a know it all supreme busy body, obviously people are going to categorically label you as a Mullah.
Just fruit for thought.
Edited by: junaidj on Friday, November 12, 2004 2:06 AM |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 12, 2004 - 10:50 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum.
I don't understand how the human need for recreation and entertainment can be denied/ignored. Even if you believe that women can keep themselves "busy" at home or at "work" just like men, it doesn't answer the concern. Remaining busy is not really the point of concern; having enough avenues for relaxation vis-a-via recreation, play etc., is.
If you believe that Islam is a natural religion, you will have to concede that normally, human beings cannot simply be expected to perform their obligatory duties, eat, work, sleep - and repeat the same course, all over again! There's no harm in trying to enjoy life beyond the 'world of duty'.
Then again, someone may point out, work can be enjoyed. What if we need a break?
I think we have gradually managed to shift focus from the initial questions put forward. Anymore original thoughts on those?
Wasalaam.
Saadia
Edited by: saadiamalik on Friday, November 12, 2004 10:57 AM |
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raggy
AUSTRALIA
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Posted - Friday, November 12, 2004 - 12:19 PM
Assalum Alikum,
In regards with womens entertainment why not start a womens group of activities like cooking recipes, craft, sewing, new ideas, even going out as a group...
video entertanment I dont see something wrong in it, as long as the women and men are within islamic matters..some series actually are beneficial biographies of people like salahudin, Harun Rashid, Motanaby, which I find are worthwhile in knowing how these people contributed in this world and how they led their lives. As well as real life documentaries, or movies that address an issue in society and how it can be solved.
In all these contexts..as said before when they are addressed (women and men, scenario, filming) in a respectful, appropriate and in an islamic way then i think its ok. Even though I enjoy reading more :)
keep up the good work Sadiaa.
wa salam |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 12, 2004 - 2:25 PM
Assalaamu Alaikum.
Thanks for your response. So is this what you're recommending:
Women can be a part of arts and entertainment, so long as it strictly serves some educational purpose i.e. biographical sketches, Islamic programmes, historical documentaries, etc.?
If this is what you're suggesting - and of course, you have a right to your opinion - it seems to be an attempt to reconcile oneself with a difficult issue. I mean, it is as if it says, "No, ideally, women should not belong to the arts, but if at all, then the above-mentioned areas are the limits'. I obviously do not intend to put words into your mouth. I guess what I want to know is: am I understanding you correctly?
Wasalaam.
Saadia
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thinking
USA
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Posted - Friday, November 12, 2004 - 4:58 PM
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raggy
AUSTRALIA
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 6:53 AM
Assalam alikum,
I also said 'or movies that address an issue in society and how it can be solved.' I am with women can belong to the arts as long as its with purpose as i quoted 'as said before when they are addressed (women and men, scenario, filming) in a respectful, appropriate and in an islamic way then i think its ok.' So, I was giving the examples inwhich, the purpose concept comes in not only with historical/educational but also movies and society and series.
wa Allah A3lum. |
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thinking
USA
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 6:59 AM
Assalamu Alaikum
This is quite an interesting discussion here.
Sister Saadia, you said that women going out where you live will get piercing looks by predators, and of course that is not right. I do understand and sympathize. But then don't you think that even the women working on television and videos, regardless of how modestly dressed they may be and of how they may avoid contact with non-mehram men, may fall prey to the same problem? Who is to say that they will be protected from piercing looks by non-mehram couch potatoes, or even from the intentions of the non-mehrams whom they work with? Your principles are honorable, because of which you would rather avoid a stroll on the street, but then by the same principles it can't be right for women to work on television.
I think we should go right down and look at the root of the problem here - it's the media itself. Many noteworthy scholars, after acquiring years of knowledge of the Sirat and the Sunnat and authentic Hadith, are of the opinion that videos themselves are not good, because they are a product of images and pictures of people, which are also not good, except under certain dire circumstances (like for eg., security reasons). That would mean it wouldn't be acceptable for anyone working on television, both men and women. (Like someone pointed out - what about girls oogling at Legolas?) These controversial issues of oogling strangers arise because of the controversial root of the problem - videos. There would be no need for this discussion if it was generally accepted that videos are wrong.
Of course entertainment and recreation is only human, and Islam is a natural religion. I guess it all depends on our priorities. If we have decided that the goals of our lives are to be productive Muslims, then we should first try to fulfill our responsibilities according to that. But we will definitely need breaks and relaxation in between. In these times, we look for avenues to relax and entertain ourselves that are both good for us and that avoid harming us or our Akhirat. Playing innocent games, simply lying down with maybe a beautiful Quran recitation in the background, talking to friends, visiting art exhibitions, flipping through newspapers and books, are all harmless ways to relax which would be hard-pressed to nag our consciences (provided of course, that the conversations aren't pointless gossip, the exhibitions don't include nudes, and the books don't include porn...)
And I'm sure there's never been anything wrong with sports. They're not only fun but good for our health.
As far as art is concerned, television and videos are not the only kinds of art there is. But if videos are the only entertaining thing, then documentaries or clean informative stuff sounds better. Even today's TV dramas are hardly a work of art anyway and are usually based on pointless and often romantic themes.
I think Muslims should always do what is good for themselves. Because on the Last Day we will be held accountable for every second of our lives. And if we're not too pious we don't want to be wishing on that Day that we hadn't wasted our time in certain forms of entertainment. I stand in no position to preach, but I guess Allah knows what's best, and I think that we should always conclude on informed decisions, based on our true conscience, on qualified scholars' opinions, on private prayers to Allah, and on acquiring our own knowledge of Quran and Sunnat. |
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raggy
AUSTRALIA
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 7:26 AM
Maybe it is as you said sister Saadia
"No, ideally, women should not belong to the arts, but if at all, then the above-mentioned areas are the limits'
but I'd say 'it is ok, if only for the purpose of what was mentioned' other than that I think, the entertainment industry is gone overboard as the kuffar portray it, it can be led to the haram at the end. |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 8:33 AM
>>even the women working on television and videos, regardless of how modestly dressed they may be ..... Who is to say that they will be protected from piercing looks by non-mehram couch potatoes,
I suppose same will go for men as well. Who will protect them from couch potato women?
>>or even from the intentions of the non-mehrams whom they work with?
same for men and intentions of non-mehram women?
>>but then by the same principles it can't be right for women to work on television.
But by same principles, it cant be right to read Ghalib, or most of Urdu/Persian/Arabic poetry, or my favorite Maulana Rumi :)?
Owing to this streak of puritanism, we might not even be able to learn Classical Arabic since several of it exists in the form of love poetry?
>>Many noteworthy scholars, after acquiring years of knowledge
Who is to say they are noteworthy? There is no room for clerics in Islam. You are your best judge.
>>they are a product of images and pictures of people, which are also not good,
Will you include the dramas pinned by Ashfaque Ahmed and Banu Quddsiyah in this? The pantheon of progressive writers?
>>it wouldn't be acceptable for anyone working on television, both men and women. (Like someone pointed out - what about girls oogling at Legolas?)
I pointed that out, and I am not done there, it was mentioned for a purpose, I await a response to take it further, but certainly not toward your conclusion.
>>Playing innocent games, simply lying down with maybe a beautiful Quran recitation in the background,
Some people dont want to listen to Koranic recitation 24/7! Why make it cumbersome, why turn them away from religion with all this incessant thing about always listen to Koran rather than anything else. You mar creativity if nothing else.
>>then documentaries or clean informative stuff sounds better.
Who is to say, you wont fall after the guy in the documentary? Or even the voice. Understand that repressive environs lead to far dangerous situations than what currently exist.
>>And if we're not too pious we don't want to be wishing on that Day that we hadn't wasted our time in certain forms of entertainment.
There is always a difference of opinion on what constitutes piety, or modesty, else we would all be robots.
People worship the divine in different ways. Some are rigid, some are colorful, some like movies, some dont, a person watching movies maybe a better muslim than a person who does not.
We have to be comfortable in what we do. Repression leads to other problems. Recently one of my colleagues felt suffocated with all the spiels on Hijab. Barring the obvious restrictions, why do something if you are not one with it?
There is a reason that the Divine left many things for us to decide.
PS: Why must every thing be sexualized? I really fail to understand.
Edited by: junaidj on Saturday, November 13, 2004 8:41 AM |
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thinking
USA
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 9:49 AM
Quote:
>I pointed that out, and I am not done there, it was mentioned for a purpose, I await a response to take it further, but certainly not toward your conclusion.
But why be so insistent on picking the conclusion that suits you best? I haven't looked through enough to discussions to decide about it, but my idea was that on a forum like this we're open to all discussion and in searching for the truth we do it without biases.
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thinking
USA
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 10:10 AM
Quote:
>We have to comfortable in what we do.
What if we're only comfortable doing things not acceptable in Islam? What's the difference then between a Muslim and a non-muslim? A muslim is one who 'submits', and does things for the sake of God rather than his/her own desires and whims. And if we really do what is right for the sake of God, He will make it comfortable for us Himself. And if we do not know what is right, or if we do not even know if there is such a thing as 'right', or if certain ideologies have left us with impressions that entirely blur the distinction between right and wrong or black and white, we can always pray for guidance, seek knowledge from all sides, and follow our heart's deepest intuitions as to which knowledge to trust. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 10:29 AM
quote:
Many noteworthy scholars, after acquiring years of knowledge of the Sirat and the Sunnat and authentic Hadith, are of the opinion that videos themselves are not good, because they are a product of images and pictures of people, which are also not good, except under certain dire circumstances (like for eg., security reasons).
"thinking", thanks for writing in. Could you please elaborate on this. Why would you regard movies and still images as "bad"? Let's establish the basics, before returning to the main issue at hand.
Allah Hafiz.
Saadia |
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MuhammadRehan
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 10:31 AM
Walikum salam wr wbrkt
If women partispate in a role like sister, mother, daughter or any thing else with nice clothing and with out physical contact, Then also One thing will remain unsolve that is gazing the face of nonmehram by the viewers and the camraman , that is not allowed In Islam. It is not for only women but also if men act any role in vedio, its also not allowed for women to watch men.
There can be prepare many vedios for intertainments with out the physical apperance role of men and women.
conclusion is that we should not enjoy those intertainments in this world which take us away from the intertainments of Paradise.
May Allah Almighty make our television fully Islamic.
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, November 13, 2004 - 10:34 AM
quote:
We have to be comfortable in what we do.
Junaid, points well-taken. I see your line of argument, and I understand your approach. Fair enough. Could you please elaborate on the quote above, especially in light of what 'thinking' said.
Be looking forward to replies from both of you. Let's keep it logical, and fun. I promise I won't get offended either. Oppose me, but let me know why!
Wasalaam.
Saadia
Edited by: saadiamalik on Saturday, November 13, 2004 10:38 AM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 6:17 AM
>>We have to be comfortable in what we do...... Could you please elaborate on the quote above, especially in light of what 'thinking' said.
Religious injunctions if followed out of moral pressure, whether internal or external, leads to repression, suffocation and maladies associated with it. It may lead one to abandon one's faith.
One must follow what is right, to the best of one's abilities. Not to the best of someone else's abilities. Each stands on a different plane.
If your morals and intution guide you toward Hijab and avoidance of movies, then by all means go for it. I would respect that.
But please dont expect others would agree with you or for that matter follow you. That is your own truth, your own idea of what constitutes piety and morality.
Illustration: You stop yourself from eating a chocolate cake. You repress yourself.
Whether not eating that cake is right or wrong is a personal issue. Each will have different values attached to eating that cake.
Now suppose you follow abstinence, what happens? You end up eating much more cake to make up for all the abstinence.
So the basic idea is to be one with what you do.
One first decides whether to follow an injunction or not. Some believe watching movies is harmless fun (because they do not sexualize every situation), other believe watching them is harmful (perhaps they do feel the sexual energy). So the latter decide not to watch them, whereas the former watch them.
If the latter force the former to stop watching them, that would be out of the usual course for the former, hence they might end up venting their energies elsewhere, and you dont want to know where :)
The former can abandon movies if they are truly convinced it is morally wrong. Then there would be no problems.
That is what I mean by being comfortable
PS: Please also try to link the above with the following as posted earlier.
Some people dont want to listen to Koranic recitation 24/7! Why make it cumbersome, why turn them away from religion with all this incessant thing about always listen to Koran rather than anything else.
>>we can always pray for guidance, seek knowledge from all sides, and follow our heart's deepest intuitions as to which knowledge to trust.
But you do concede that there can be a difference of opinion and that intuition leads different people to different paths. Right?
Who is to say you have the absolute version of truth or for that matter I. We are all sinners. We have different trials and different capacities. Let us appreciate and respect that difference.
After all, was it not the Prophet who said 'The differences among the people of my Ummah are a sign of God's Grace'. Now I am not sure of the source or veracity, but this is what I read in some book ages ago.
Edited by: junaidj on Sunday, November 14, 2004 7:23 AM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Sunday, November 14, 2004 - 6:22 AM
>>But why be so insistent on picking the conclusion that suits you best?
The point is I am taking that argument in a certain direction. You pop in and give your version of it. I come back and tell you that is not what I meant. So?
>>on a forum like this we're open to all discussion and in searching for the truth we do it without biases.
Exactly! So where are we stuck?
Thinking, I understand some of your concerns. You seem to be like a fish out of water in the US where I suppose you are writing from. You must be familiar with Amish, Hutterites, and their likes.
If the evil influence of TV and pop culture really concerns you, then perhaps you might want to take a leaf from the Amish and Hutterite approach to life.
They have found practical ways to lead their life according to their understanding of the scriptures.
Edited by: junaidj on Monday, November 15, 2004 8:43 AM |
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