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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Monday, November 29, 2004 - 9:06 AM 
Sorry, I missed the following reference from the last post:
15. Ibn ‘Abidin, Rasa’il Ibn ‘Abidin, 1st ed., (Damascus: al-Maktbah al-Hashimiyyah, 1325 AH), p. 125 |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, November 29, 2004 - 11:37 AM
Assalamu Alaikum,
I would like to discuss few points:
1. every government has the right to make laws, but to stop someone from performing his/her religious duties is something very serious. If France make a rule against headscarf we all protest against it, Don't you think that France has the right to make laws & what if your government make a law that no one can say his prayer in mosques ?
2. Brother Nauman said that this is their interpretation of Islamic Law and we should respect. I totally agree with you brother, We are only trying to mention others about their mistake ( in our view ) if they are right they should provide proofs and secondly we are only discussing what is required in Islam, we cannot force them to change their view. Even many scholors from Pakistan holds the same view, we can't do anything but to educate about the truth.
3. Brother masahibzada, no one here is trying to convince that one should not obey the Prophet (sws) but to follow a rule you must undwerstand it first. How can you follow a rule without proper understanding ?
Brother you have said that we have received the Quran and Ahadeeth through the same channel. I am afraid I disagree with you on this point, Quran is converyed through the Ijma while the ahadeeth are conveyed through some personal work. There is difference in both ways.
quote:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas (Radhiallaho anho):
The Prophet (sallallaahu'alaihi wasallam) said, "A woman
should not travel except with a Dhu-Mahram (her husband or a
man with whom that woman cannot marry at all according to the
Islamic Jurisprudence), and no man may visit her except in the
presence of a Dhu-Mahram." A man got up and said, "O Allah's
Messenger! I intend to go to such and such an army and my wife
wants to perform Hajj." The Prophet said (to him), "Go along
with her (to Hajj)."
What I have understood from this hadith that this was a general order for women that they should not travel alone and that was to save them from others, and the Prophet (sws) consider it so important that he even ask the person to leave the Jihad.
In my opinion, this was to save the women and this should be observed all the time, not only for Hajj or Umra & if we think that now a days travelling is safe that women can travel alone then they should be allowed to go for Hajj as well. If they can go to other places then why not Hajj.
Please correct me if I am wrong.
Kind Regards
Edited by: atifrafi on Monday, November 29, 2004 11:53 AM |
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masahibzada
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, November 29, 2004 - 7:20 PM
Let me first pray to Allah (SWT) that:
We seek refuge in Allah from the evil of ourselves and the evil of our actions. Whomsoever Allah guides then there is none who can misguide him, and whomsoever Allaah misguides then there is none who can guide him. May Allaah keep us on the Straight Path of His Deen! Aameen.
To proceed:
I would like to draw attention of my brothers and sisters to the following points for understanding the Islaamic injunctions on the issue and opinions of the experts in Islaamic jurisprudence (Fuqahaa’):
- Deenul-Islaam was completed by Allah (SWT) with the revelation of Aayah No: 3 of Surah 5 – Al-Maaidah of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem [...This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion ...] and thus nothing can now be added or subtracted from it. Hajj is one of the five basic pillars of Islaam. Therefore, the journey for this (`Umrah being similar to Hajj has to be given the same consideration) has to be undertaken observing all the precautions and practices prescribed by the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam). Any change in these will amount to violation of the edict contained in Aayah No: 36 of Surah 33 – Al-Ahzaab of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem [It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path.]
- Intention of all `Ibaadaat is to seek pleasure of Allah (SWT). If such `Ibaadaat are not done in the way prescribed by Allah (SWT) and His Messenger (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) then no sane mind can assume that Allah (SWT) will be pleased with such `Ibaadaat.
Regarding comments of brother Atif Rafi about transmission Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem and Ahaadith I would urge him to read some good books on the subjects of "Uloom-ul-Quraan” and "`Ilm-ul-Hadith”. I am sure after reading these he will, In Shaa Allah, come to the same conclusion as I hold in this matter. I am sorry for my inability to summarise characteristics of the proceedings undertaken for putting in writing these two sources of Deen-ul-Islaam [cf. Sermon of the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) delivered by him on the occasion of Hajjah-tul-Wida`]. The only difference is that the chain for individual transmission in the case of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem finished with the Companions of the prophet (Ridhwaanullahi `Alayhim Ajma`een) with its being put down in writing in the book form (Mus-haf) during the caliphate of `Usmaan Ibni `Affaan (Radhi-ullah Ta`aalaa `Anhu) while in case of Aahaadith the chain of individual transmission continued for several decades after the period of Khilaafat Raashidah, covering the generations of Taabi`een, Taba` Taabi`een, and a few subsequent ones, till compilation of the famous books of collection of authentic Aahaadith, such as, Saheeh Bukhaari, Saheeh Muslim, etc. Ijma` mentioned by brother Atif Rafi most probably relates to the six authentic books (Sihaa Sittah) of Aahaadith and not to the actual chain of transmission.
Was-Salaam: Sahibzada Muhammad Ayaz |
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Firdousi
AUSTRALIA
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Posted - Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 12:22 AM
| i think there is nothing wrong if a woman goes alone to Haram as long as she has reliable travelling arrangements esp with a group maybe. This day and age women travel alone everywhere and its seems a shame if they cant travel alone to Umra or Hajj as sometimes they may not have a Mahram man who is willing to accompany her.Does this mean she misses out totally? |
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zest
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 7:35 AM
The only difference is that the chain for individual transmission in the case of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem finished with the Companions of the prophet (Ridhwaanullahi `Alayhim Ajma`een) with its being put down in writing in the book form (Mus-haf) during the caliphate of `Usmaan Ibni `Affaan (Radhi-ullah Ta`aalaa `Anhu) while in case of Aahaadith the chain of individual transmission continued for several decades after the period of Khilaafat Raashidah, covering the generations of Taabi`een, Taba` Taabi`een, and a few subsequent ones, till compilation of the famous books of collection of authentic Aahaadith, such as, Saheeh Bukhaari, Saheeh Muslim, etc. Ijma` mentioned by brother Atif Rafi most probably relates to the six authentic books (Sihaa Sittah) of Aahaadith and not to the actual chain of transmission.
You seem to have access to the sources unavailabe to all the Muslims generations. This i say because your view of the authenticity of hadith and the Qur'an collides head on with the knowledge and belief of the Muslims over the centuries. Could you please elaborate a little why do you think that the Qur'an was handed down through individual to individual mode of transfer? |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 2:30 PM
Bro masahibzada, thanks a lot for your post. I admire your devotion to your deen. However, I would like to ask, and everyone is welcome to give their viewpoints:
1) There was a reason why, when the Prophet, sws, recommended steps for the overall good of society, he also offered the reasons, or at least, the ahadith give us the circumstantial facts based on which, the Prophet, sws, recommended something. Don't you think we need to consider his intent for circumstance-specific sayings, and to accept his way of worship blue for blue, red for red.... I feel there's a difference between the two. To alter the manasik-i hajj is to alter religion; to use ijtihad on the situation of women, is not quite the same.
2) Also (please correct me if I'm wrong), you are suggesting that the transmission of ahadith was just as authentic as that of the Qur'an. Why then, in the sahih, do you find Aisha (rta) married to the Prophet, sws, at the time that she was a minor? Does that not contradict the Qur'an? Do you seriously believe that our Prophet, sws, agreed to marry a child, or would you rather take a stand: that he could never have done anything unnatural to human values and/or going against the word of Allah, and that instead, something is wrong with such ahadith? I realise that this example is in no way directly relevant to the issue at hand, but I'm just trying to infer where ahadith should stand in our model of religion.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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masahibzada
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 1, 2004 - 3:47 PM
As-Salaamu `Alaykum my bothers and sisters in Faith:
We seek refuge in Allah from the evil of ourselves and the evil of our actions. Whomsoever Allah guides then there is none who can misguide him, and whomsoever Allaah misguides then there is none who can guide him. May Allaah keep us on the Straight Path of His Deen! Aameen.
To proceed:
Let me inform you that I am neither an expert in the fields of “`Uloom-ul-Quraan” and “`Uloom-ul-Hadith”, nor in the field of Islamic jurisprudence (Fiqh-ul-Islamee). Therefore, it is not possible for me to comment on specific queries (dated November 30, 2004) of sister Saadia with the clarity and comprehensiveness that these deserve in the light of their larger implications for our Deen. My previous comments on the topic under study were based mainly on my knowledge, acquired mostly through unguided self-education only [i.e., no formal instructions were received by me from pious religious experts in these fields and thus I do not qualify as an expert having “Ijaazah”, or authority, to express formal / legal opinion (Fatwaa) binding on others to consider]. This effort was naturally limited to my own needs to learn what Islaam actually wants of a man individually as a person, and collectively as a member of the human society in general but particularly as a member of the community (i.e., the Islaamic Ummah) subscribing to a particular Faith / ideology. Each one of us, however, is responsible, and accountable (on the Day of Judgment), before Allah (SWT) individually for the choices we make even if such choices are made at promptings of others, be they ordinary persons like me or eminent scholars and leaders (Imaam) of schools of thoughts (Masaalik or Mazaahib). Therefore, now I would stop adding my comments on the issue as many sensitive subsidiary points have been raised, which can cause confusion and wrong conclusions.
Before closing my submission I would like to add a personal clarification to the second point of sister Saadia. My comment about mode of transmission of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem and Aahaadith was limited to only mode of transmission and not to the degree of accuracy. Both these sources of Deen-ul-Islaam were transmitted to the generation of Tabi`een by As-haab-ur-Rasool (Ridhwaanullahi `Alayhim Ajma`een) and the similarity ends there. Accuracy and preservation of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem is guaranteed by Allah (SWT), as is evident from Aayah No: 9, Surah 15 – Al-Hijr, and Aayaat No: 16-19, Surah 75 – Al-Qiyaamah, of Al-Quraan-ul-Kareem, while there is no such guarantee in respect of Aahaadith. It appears (Excuse me if I am incorrect in arriving at this understanding) that you have mentioned marriage of Umm-ul-Mu`mineen A’isha (Ridhi-ullahu Ta`aalaa `Anhaa) to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam) as an indirect indicator of inaccuracy of the two most famous, and the most authentic books of Aahaadith by all standards of judicial enquiry. Regarding marriage of Umm-ul-Mu`mineen A’isha (Ridhi-ullahu Ta`aalaa `Anhaa) I would strongly urge all my brothers and sisters participating in this discussion forum that they must read the article on this issue at web page http://www.muslim-answers.org/aishah.htm (re-accessed by me on Dec. 1, 2004 for ascertaining its availability for consultation online).
Was-Salaam: Sahibzada Muhammad Ayaz |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 5:34 AM
Assalam o Alaikum,
brother masahibzada, i think we are moving away from our discussion. I think it would be better that here we stick on the related topic.
If you want a debate about the age of Hazrat Ayesha (rt) at the time of her marriage it would be much better to start a new thread. Right now, I can only ask you to read the following :
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=375
Regards |
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masahibzada
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 11:56 AM
As-Salaamu `Alaykum my bothers and sisters in Faith:
Thank you for your suggestion dear brother Atif Rafi. However, I do not wish to start a discussion on this subject. It was commented upon only in response to sister Saadia’s reference to this in her comments of November 30, 2004 above. Actually I have decided to stop adding my views even to the basic topic of this discussion for the reasons mentioned in the first paragraph of my last comments dated December 01, 2004.
Thank you also for suggesting to me to read the article at the web site mentioned in your comments. I had already read this article some time ago but I am more convinced of the findings, and conclusions, of the article contained on the web page quoted in my comment of December 01, 2004 above. However, this is not an issue [i.e., age of Umm-ul-mu`mineen A’isha (Ridhi-ullahu `Anhaa) age the time of her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam)] basic to our faith and thus we should not waste our time and energies on it now after fourteen and a quarter centuries of its occurrence when no notice of this incidence was taken by the society around then in which it occurred.
Regards,
Sahibzada Muhammad Ayaz |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 12:23 PM
quote:
Therefore, now I would stop adding my comments on the issue as many sensitive subsidiary points have been raised, which can cause confusion and wrong conclusions.
No, brother. Please don't stop expressing yourself. Everyone should get an equal chance. I think the best way to deal with that would be for all of us to keep our responses short and to-the-point each time, so that we can all grasp the essence of each others' arguments.
Please do express yourself. I am sorry on behalf of myself and everyone else to each and every participant who has out of some misunderstanding, decided to call it quits as far as forum participation is concerned.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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surgeonakhlaq
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, December 2, 2004 - 8:16 PM
Assalaamu’alaikum,
I my wish mothers, sisters and daughters to visit the Holy cities but regarding the subject, “Women travelling Alone to Mecca/Medina” I have the following points in my mind, which may help someone or someone may help me.
1. The Quranic verse, “Ateeu-Allah-ha,.Ateeu-ur-Rasul Wa Olil Amr” (Obey Allah, His prophet and those who are rulers upon you). Sorry for any mistake or number of the verse as I am unable to recall at this time. As Saudi Govt is Muslim one, can the Quranic verse defend it, for this rule i.e. NO entry of a woman without Mahram?
2. If Quran gives the facility of “Istataat” for Hajj (3: 97) which is a Fardh and why not for “Umra” and other visits?
3. Why does Saudi Govt ignore a number of Ahadith as mentioned in his following quote (with apologies) and how can Saudi Govt be convinced by our decision?
“It needs to be appreciated that there are a number of Ahadith in which directives have been given by the Prophet (sws) for the well-being of the Muslims. However, if, the circumstances in which such directives have been given change, then as is the case with all conditional directives such directives may no longer apply in the changed circumstances”
4. How many females are in the world those have NO Mahram and If Saudi Govt has banned then what are those hindrances, which our mothers, sisters and daughters are facing to arrange the Mahram?
There are some orders of Islam the late effects of which, we can not understand easily. According to me, the presence of Mahram strongly favours a woman. Suppose someone dares to have some doubts openly or in one’s heart, about a woman without Mahram, Although God is Samee & Baseer, but she seems to have no way to defend herself in the society where she has to live. But with Mahram, no one can do some misunderstandings. Can you think of these misunderstandings, which can create different types complications? Islam wants a healthy society. Furthermore a woman is weak physically by nature and in the journey and within these cities, there are some difficult places too, so if a woman slips somewhere or have some other problem, then remember that only a Mahram can easily touch, catch or lift her. But on the other hand the hesitation of the others and that woman may create a too much hindrance in the help.
I am sorry if any body feels something spicy or bitter as I am perhaps notorious one now a days at this website.
May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen! |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, December 3, 2004 - 10:55 AM
quote:
Thank you also for suggesting to me to read the article at the web site mentioned in your comments. I had already read this article some time ago but I am more convinced of the findings, and conclusions, of the article contained on the web page quoted in my comment of December 01, 2004 above. However, this is not an issue [i.e., age of Umm-ul-mu`mineen A’isha (Ridhi-ullahu `Anhaa) age the time of her marriage to the Prophet Muhammad (sallallaahu `alaihi wa sallam)] basic to our faith and thus we should not waste our time and energies on it now after fourteen and a quarter centuries of its occurrence when no notice of this incidence was taken by the society around then in which it occurred.
JazakALLAH brother, you have pointed extremely important point. I am glad that you have read both point of views and then selected one which you think is more reliable. Its always personal choice and no one here is forcing you to accept anything.
And as sister Sadia have mentioned that you must not stop expressing yourself, afterall we all learn through this. So, i would request to keep on posting your comments.
Regards |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, December 3, 2004 - 12:05 PM
quote:
I my wish mothers, sisters and daughters to visit the Holy cities...
Thank you. Thank you very much.
quote:
1. The Quranic verse, “Ateeu-Allah-ha,.Ateeu-ur-Rasul Wa Olil Amr” (Obey Allah, His prophet and those who are rulers upon you). Sorry for any mistake or number of the verse as I am unable to recall at this time. As Saudi Govt is Muslim one, can the Quranic verse defend it, for this rule i.e. NO entry of a woman without Mahram?
I think we have to obey what the government says. I think we have to. Please correct me, if you feel the need. But the whole point of this discussion is to debate whether the government's stand is right or wrong.
quote:
There are some orders of Islam the late effects of which, we can not understand easily. According to me, the presence of Mahram strongly favours a woman. Suppose someone dares to have some doubts openly or in one’s heart, about a woman without Mahram, Although God is Samee & Baseer, but she seems to have no way to defend herself in the society where she has to live. But with Mahram, no one can do some misunderstandings. Can you think of these misunderstandings, which can create different types complications? Islam wants a healthy society. Furthermore a woman is weak physically by nature and in the journey and within these cities, there are some difficult places too, so if a woman slips somewhere or have some other problem, then remember that only a Mahram can easily touch, catch or lift her. But on the other hand the hesitation of the others and that woman may create a too much hindrance in the help.
Certainly, the presence of a mahram would be a plus. But at times, there are difficulties in arranging a visit with one. So, it should be kept open. If our women can freely move around the markets, why not the Holy Places. I reckon they are much safer. |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, December 3, 2004 - 1:25 PM
Assalam o Alaikum,
I agree with the moderator, we have to follow the rule once it is made and our discussion is only to analyze that the rule is accordance to the Islamic Sharia' or not.
quote:
As Saudi Govt is Muslim one, can the Quranic verse defend it, for this rule i.e. NO entry of a woman without Mahram?
But do you really think that Saudi government is Islamic, do remember its "Kingdom". But still I believe that we have to follow the rules made by the government.
Are we following this rule by making groups for travelling to Makkah or Madina. Remember in group we always declare someone as a Mahram, who is infact an unknown person. Isn't it cheating with the govt.
Secondly, if women are safe while travelling to any other place then why isn't she safe when going to Makkah / Madina.
Now, I would like to quote an incident. Here in Pakistan, there are few programs on different T.V channels in which people asks about their Islamic problems and some scholors respond to those queries.
Once there was a question by an air hostess of PIA. She asked that once she was in Jeddah and due to change in the flight schedule she has to stay there for 2 days. She said that she could not control her as she was so close to Makkah and decided to perform Umra with another colleague air hostess. Her question was "will she be accountable for that, as no mahram was present with her?"
Can you guess what was the answer from 2 different scholors..... I would also request you to give your opinion on this issue.
Regards
Edited by: atifrafi on Friday, December 03, 2004 1:27 PM |
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surgeonakhlaq
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 12:53 AM
Assalaamu’alaikum,
First of all I want to correct my mistake in this my sentence “I my wish mothers, sisters and daughters to visit the Holy cities” as ”I wish my mothers, sisters and daughters to visit the Holy cities” and in No.3 “mentioned in his following quote” as mentioned in this following quote.
Regarding Quote of Madam Saadia Malik, Thank you.
Whether the difficulties in arranging Mahram is arranging money or some else, Kindly highlight for just a knowledge.
Regarding Quote of brother Atifrafi, Thank you.
It seems to be controversial. Everybody may agree fully, if this controversy is removed. |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, December 4, 2004 - 4:46 AM
quote:
It seems to be controversial. Everybody may agree fully, if this controversy is removed.
Assalamu Alaykum,
I am sorry but i could not understand that which controversy you are talking about. In my opinion its simple difference of opinion and as far as we do not force others to accept our point, there is nothing wrong in it.
Waslaam |
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