| Author | Topic |
saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
|
 Posted - Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 5:21 PM 
| Thanks you all. I think we are all agreed, except for "loveall". He needs to explain to us, the hadith quoted right at the beginning of this thread. We can't accept opinions as religion, when they have no bases in the sources, and rather, are only based on one's self-constructed beliefs and "observations". That simply cannot be accepted. "Loveall" needs to defend himself in the light of the hadith, at least. |
|
wenpam3
YEMEN
|
Posted - Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 7:42 PM
Salams to all,
i have just read through all these posts, i find this topic most interesting, being a convert i have experienced being a woman on both sides of the garden.
it saddens me to know that this kind of thing needs to be discussed in islam as it has been discussed for years outside islam, especially when it comes to mudslinging between the male and the female who seem irreconcilable to the fact that women should not be 'compared' to men, but should be looked at as a unique creation just as the man is. Allah swt, has assigned us both differing roles in the home and in the world at large and has given us everything we need within us to maintain our roles to the best of our abilities.
to ask' are women intellectually deprived, and then giving the hadith of the Prophet Muhammed saw on the women's naqs of deen and dunya, which is clearly answered in the hadith. is mimicking the disastrous events that have occurred in the 'modern' western world, were women have been taken out of her home, and made to fight for every inch she has moved forward in the arena of men, to the extent that her natural fitrah that Allah gave her has now been corrupted to such a degree that she will go to extra-ordinary lengths to prove she is 'equal' to men.
to understand woman is to understand her role as given by the One Who created her, and His Final Prophet, not as given by western public opinion.
if we look with the correct understanding, we can honor woman by simply being woman and by fulfilling her God given role.
We should as muslims get out of this copying of western attitudes and get back to the Haqq, this way we can lift ourselves out of our self induced inferiority complex and put men and women back into ther designated roles and thus restore this planets equilibrium.
jazak Allahu khair
ma salam |
|
saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 1:59 AM
Wenpam3, there's a problem I see with your opinion.
Islam proposes that men and women are equal. Correct?
Islam proposes that men and women are different. Correct?
Islam assigns different responsibilities to men and women. Correct?
Islam assigns the primary (financial) responsibility of bread-winning to men. Correct?
Islam assigns the primary (moral) responsibility of the upbringing of children to women. Correct?
How can you or I, from the above, deduce that it automatically means that women are less sensible than men, by nature? How can you accept that a lady who has to look after her kids at home, one who - under normal circumstances - gets to spend greater time and effort with her children (sons included), is intellectually less stimulated than men? How can you judge that to ask such a question is to, in fact, question God and the human make-up?
While Islam came to Arabia, heralding a new era for women. Of their emancipation, of their freedom, it is ironic that we have come to be accepted as a male chauvinistic creed, through the acts and tilted beliefs of Muslims themselves.
Thank you, though, for referring to the hadith quoted at the beginning of the thread. I'm glad there are at least three of us who'll refer to sources while discussing. Let me give you the interpretation I accept of the hadith - which reached me through the pen of Mr. Shehzad Saleem:
The following Hadith is generally presented to support the view that women are less sensible than men:
عن أبي سعيد الخدري قال خرج رسول الله في أضحى أو فطر إلى المصلى فمر على النساء فقال …ما رأيت من ناقصات عقل ودين أذهب للب الرجل الحازم من إحداكن قلن وما نقصان ديننا وعقلنا يا رسول الله قال أليس شهادة المرأة مثل نصف شهادة الرجل قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان عقلها أليس إذا حاضت لم تصل ولم تصم قلن بلى قال فذلك من نقصان دينها (بخارى رقم: 298)
Abu Sa‘id Khudri narrates that the Prophet (sws) while once talking to a group of women on the occasion of Eid ul Fitr or Eid ul Adha said: ‘… and I have seen no one more than you rob even a resolute man of his senses in spite of being Naqisati ‘Aql wa Din’. They said: ‘O Allah’s Messenger, what is this Naqs in religious and worldly affairs?’ He said: ‘Is not the evidence of a woman equal to half of a man’s’. They said: ‘Yes’. He said: ‘This is their Naqs in worldly affairs’. He said: ‘Is it not a fact that when they enter the period of menses they neither pray nor fast’. They said: ‘Yes’. Whereupon he said: ‘This is the Naqs in religious affairs’. (Bukhari, No: 298)
This misconception has arisen because of a wrong translation of the Arabic phrase Naqisati ‘Aql wa Din. The word ‘Naqs’ has generally been translated as ‘defective’ keeping in view the Urdu meaning of the word. However, in Arabic, the verb ‘نَقَصَ’ (Naqasa) means ‘to reduce’ and the word ‘عقل’ (‘Aql) here means ‘worldly affairs’ since it is used in conjugation with the word ‘دين’ (religion). Keeping in view, both these aspects, the correct translation of the above phrase, if the context is also taken into consideration, is that women have been given a relief and reduction in their worldly and religious affairs.
The relief in worldly responsibilities, as is mentioned in this Hadith, is that women have not been dragged in certain activities and spheres. For example, the Qur’an urges men to testify on legal documents so that women are relieved of appearing in courts and wasting their precious time on affairs which others can handle. Only if men are not available should a society involve women in such affairs.
The relief women have been given in religious affairs is that they are not required to pray or fast during their monthly periods as is mentioned in this Hadith.
So what must be kept in mind is the fact that the meaning of a word does not always remain the same in two different languages. For example, the word ‘غَلِيْظ’ in Arabic means ‘firm’ while in Urdu it means ‘dirty’. Thus the Qur’an (4:21) has referred to marriage as ‘مِيثَاقاً غَلِيْظَا’ (a firm agreement).
Moreover, people who think that women are less sensible than men on the basis of this Hadith do not realize that the Hadith is not merely saying that women are Naqisati ‘Aql, it is also saying they are Naqisati Din. If Naqisati ‘Aql means that there is some defect in their ‘Aql (intellect), then by the same token, Naqisati Din should mean that there is also some shortcoming in the religion they follow! This of course is absurd and as referred to above is the result of keeping the Urdu meaning of the word in consideration.
Source: http://www.monthly-renaissance.com/Feb22y5.htm
I would appreciate your comments on the above. Does it clarify concepts? Are you willing to change your opinion?
Edited by: saadiamalik on Thursday, February 17, 2005 2:02 AM |
|
wenpam3
YEMEN
|
Posted - Thursday, February 17, 2005 - 6:36 PM
Salams,
jazak Allahu khair for the explanation of the hadith, one point i will make is that i never said woman was intellectually deprived, i myself am a mother of three, and have come to yemen from the uk to study islamic shariah, and arabic and a host of other subjects, alhamdulillah. so i am very much aware of the fact that women are capable of learning anything they want and generally it is lack of opportunity that has deprived this ummah of great women scholars like we had in the past.
i was told when i first embraced islam to teach my boys deen, but to teach the girls cooking, cleaning, sewing etc. how appalled i was and still am at such an archaic ideal.
The Prophet saw, encouraged all his companions to learn, and in a hadith says it is fard on every muslim, male and female to seek knowledge of islam.
some of the hadith when taken at face value and even some ayats can seem very 'anti-woman' and it is sad that alot of dawah is lost due to muslims themselves promoting erroneous interpretations of these hadith and ayats.
one such is where Allah says, "your wives and children are enemies to you....."
the initial reaction to this and to the usual interpretation of it, will cause any woman to react in a less than favourable way, but when it is explained, that it is because the man who has so much responsibility towards his wife and family, and his concern and care for them can reach such level that he would fall into haram in order to care for them to the maximum, it is this that means they are his enemy. not because of some defect in his wife as some quote it.
our sheikh here, habib Ali Jifry is one of the favourites of the women due to his explanation of all these points that have become misinterpreted, and sadly have locked women in their homes with no intellectual stimulation given to them at all as if they are not in need of it.
It is up to us as women to educate our children and our men to the real place of women in islam, if the women herself keeps following the idea that she is in some way a second class citizan simply because her gender has made her in some way defective, this ummah will have a hard time raising itself up to the dizzying heights that previous generations have reached.
the mother is the first madrassah, we do not have to fight to be allowedd within the arena of men, but we should be fighting to regain the arena Allah and His Messenger have given us.
i hope this clarifies that i am not in any way undermining the woman's intellectual ability,it is known that if a man is left in the home to do the women's work, he goes mad and cannot manage it. even one day has him running.
let us reflect on the explanation of this hadith, it is nice that we can see that our Prophet saw, was in no way derogatory towards women, their intellect or their worldly affairs, he was simply teaching us all how to best please our Lord. male or female.
ma salam |
|
saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Friday, February 18, 2005 - 8:32 AM
|
saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 11:17 AM
Your judgement vs. the judgement of the Prophet (sws);
You, the source vs. Qur'an, the source.
I'll let people decide. So long. |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Tuesday, February 22, 2005 - 5:55 PM
Dear Mr loveall
You said: "Smilingly, the example of brain transplant indicates a big impossibility even after one thousand years"
This is the kind of thinking that stops Muslim from advancing in technology where as the kafir's have advanced by leaps and bounds.
You need to change your attitude.
Allah says in sura Rahman that you will not be able to enter the heavens except with His permission. So why is it that Allah gave the kafir the permission to go to the moon and enter space and explore the heavens while the Muslim is still stuck on Earth? It is because of your attitude that such a thing is not possible.
Coming back to the topic, let me give you a challenge. Prove where Quran explicitly states that women are intellectually weaker than men. If you can find such a verse, then I will change my opinion, otherwise stop speaking like an ignorant. |
|
Mikai
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Wednesday, February 23, 2005 - 12:37 AM
Asa warahmatullahi wabarakatuhu 
Mmmmm women less intelligent then men huh............well if that is true then why did Allah Swt punish Adam and Eve equally (May Allah bless them) when they both disobeyed Him  
Do you see what i'm getting at
Poor Eve had less intelligence, so she obviously had less chances of understanding what Allah was ordering her to do  , she had less chances of realising satans plan (when satan tempted them to touch the tree) , and less chances of convincing Adam not to touch the tree (Adam must have said to her, "i know better than you, i have more intelligence!!!")
So why didnt Allah Swt show more mercy on Eve Adam was the superior, Adam was the intelligent one, Adam was Eve's guide.  Eve was none of these.  (May Allah Swt bless them both)
Conclusion - This simply indicates that both Adam and Eve must have had the same level of intelligence in order for Allah Swt to have punished them both equally. As we all know Allah Swt is the Lord of justice, He didn't make the punishment lighter for Eve just because she's a woman.
Well its just something to think about.
Bye!   
Edited by: mikai on Saturday, February 26, 2005 4:41 PM |
|
perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, February 24, 2005 - 10:08 PM
Do we know two men with equal physical and intellectual attributes?
I hope the most of the stuff is tongue in cheek. If not then intellectual capacity in the muslim male is seriously deficent. |
|
karime
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, March 7, 2005 - 7:14 AM
A.A
Dear Loveall
The position of women in Islam has recently been an issue of debate. Some misconceptions arise, either from traditional practices which are thought to be "Islamic," but are not, or else from prejudices. However, the real issue is how women are regarded in the Islamic faith, and when we look at this, we see that Islam gives women great social value, freedom and comfort.
Women in the Qur'an
God's commandments about the status of women and the relations between men and women, which have been revealed to us through the Qur'an, consist of full justice. In this regard, Islam suggests equality of rights, responsibilities and duties between the two genders. Islam is based on sympathy, tolerance and respect for human beings, and does not discriminate against women in this matter.
The examples of good morals communicated to us in the Qur'an are universally compatible with human nature, and are valid for all stages of history.
Respect for women and women's rights fall within this. In the Qur'an God insists that the tasks and responsibilities of women are the same as those of men. Furthermore, while performing these tasks and responsibilities men and women must help and support each other:
The men and women of the believers are friends of one another. They command what is right and forbid what is wrong, and establish prayer and pay alms, and obey Allah and His Messenger. They are the people on whom Allah will have mercy. Allah is Almighty, All Wise. (Qur'an, 9:71)
God emphasizes that believers will be rewarded in the same manner according to their deeds, regardless of their gender.
Their Lord responds to them: 'I will not let the deeds of any doer among you go to waste, male or female - you are both the same in that respect... (Qur'an, 3:195)
Anyone who acts rightly, male or female, being a believer, We will give them a good life and We will recompense them according to the best of what they did. (Qur'an, 16:97)
In another verse, Muslim men and women are considered together, and it is stressed that both have the same responsibility and status in God's sight:
Men and women who are Muslims, men and women who are believers, men and women who are obedient, men and women who are truthful, men and women who are steadfast, men and women who are humble, men and women who give alms, men and women who fast, men and women who guard their private parts, men and women who remember Allah much: Allah has prepared forgiveness for them and an immense reward. (Qur'an, 33:35)
In the Qur'an there are many more verses stating that men and women are exactly equal in terms of their tasks and responsibilities and their rewards or punishments in return. There are a few differences in social issues, but these are for the comfort and protection of women. The commands of the Qur'an regard the congenital differences between the two genders resulting from their creation, and suggest a system maintaining equal justice for men and women in this light.
Islam does not see women as objects. Therefore, it is not seen appropriate that a woman of good morals should marry a man of bad morals. In the same way, it is not permitted for a woman of bad morals to marry a man of good morals:
Corrupt women are for corrupt men and corrupt men are for corrupt women, Good women are for good men and good men are for good women. The latter are innocent of what they say. They will have forgiveness and generous provision. (Qur'an, 24:26)
Also as regards marriage, the duties and responsibilities of couples towards each other require equality. God demands that both spouses be protective of and supervise each other. This duty is expressed in the Qur'an in the following words.
They are covers for you and you for them... (Qur'an, 2:187)
Many rules and commandments exist in the Qur'an regarding the protection of women's rights on marriage. Marriage is based on the free will of both parties; the husband has to provide economic support for his wife (4:4); the husband has to look after his ex-wife after divorce (65:6).
The Islamic Emancipation of Women
As the verses make clear, Islam brings justice to male-female relations and puts an end to harmful practices resulting from customs and traditions of pre-Islamic societies. One example is the situation of women in pre-Islamic Arab society. The pagan Arabs regarded women as inferior, and having a daughter was something to be ashamed of. Fathers of daughters sometimes preferred to bury them alive rather than announce their birth. By means of the Qur'an, Allah prohibited this evil tradition and warned that on the Judgment Day such people will definitely have to account for their actions.
In fact, Islam brought with it a great emancipation for women, who were severely persecuted in the pagan era. Prof. Bernard Lewis, known as one of the greatest Western experts on the history of Islam and the Middle East, makes the following comment:
In general, the advent of Islam brought an enormous improvement in the position of women in ancient Arabia, endowing them with property and some other rights, and giving them a measure of protection against ill treatment by their husbands or owners. The killing of female infants, sanctioned by custom in Pagan Arabia, was outlawed by Islam. But the position of women remained poor, and worsened when, in this as in so many other respects, the original message of Islam lost its impetus and was modified under the influence of pre-existing attitudes and customs. 1
Karen Armstrong, another Western expert on Islam, makes the following comment:
We must remember what life had been like for women in the pre-Islamic period when female infanticide was the norm and when women had no rights at all. Like slaves, women were treated as an inferior species, who had no legal existence. In such a primitive world, what Muhammad achieved for women was extraordinary. The very idea that a woman could be witness or could inherit anything at all in her own right was astonishing. 2
In fact, during the many centuries that followed Prophet Muhammad, women of the Islamic societies had a much higher social position than the women of Christendom. Karen Armstrong emphasizes that, during the Middle Ages;
... the Muslims were horrified to see the way Western Christians treated their women in the Crusader states, and Christian scholars denounced Islam for giving too much power to menials like slaves and women. 3
Anna King, a modern Muslim woman and a convert - or, better to say, a revert - to Islam, explains the Islamic emancipation of women as follows:
Islam first gave women their rights in a time when women were nothing but the property of men. Islam gave women the right to buy and sell on their own, own businesses and express her views politically. These were all basic rights which the American woman was not granted until relatively recently! It also encouraged women to study and learn Islamic knowledge, breaking a ban which several religions had stipulated, which forbid women to acquire any religious knowledge or touch religious texts... It also abolished the practice of marrying a woman without her consent. Thus, one would have to be very stubborn indeed to refuse such obvious facts and proofs that Islam was women's first liberator.
The tendencies to see women as "an inferior species" who has no right for education and that must be totally secluded from the society arose much later in the Islamic world, as a result of deviations from the right Qur'anic path.
Conclusion
Thus we can say that the mentality that despises women, excludes them from society and regards them as second class citizens is a wicked pagan attitude which has no place in Islam.
In fact, devout women are depicted as good examples for mankind in the Qur'an. One is Mary, the mother of Jesus Christ. Another is the wife of the Egyptian Pharaoh who, despite her husband's wickedness, is also described as an ideal Muslim. (see, 66:11-12) The Qur'an also describes very gentle conversations between the Prophet Solomon and the Queen of Sheba (27:42-44), and between Moses and two young ladies (28:23-26), which symbolize the civilized social relationship between the two genders.
Therefore, it is impossible for a Muslim to have a bigoted approach to women. In a society where true Islamic morals are practiced, immense respect and sympathy will be shown to women, and it will be ensured that they can live in freedom and comfort.
The fundamental rule in Qur'anic exegesis is ensuring that the derived meaning is in conformity with the integrity of the Qur'an. When this is considered, it is seen that all the rules mentioned to us by Allah regarding women form a social structure allowing them to live in the most comfortable and happiest way. In a society where all the moral values mentioned by Islam are practiced comprehensively, the social position of women becomes even more exalted than in societies that we today regard as modern.
Source: harunyahya.com
What I should say more, everything is mentioned to be understood for a thinker. It is clear that a woman is equal to a man to all aspects.
What you talk about INTELLECTUALITY, if you say is different or not mentioned THEN I would say “ This is not fare that ALLAH give us (male & female) the same task & responsibilities but gives not the same INTELLECTUALITY. This is not fare?
But as I know ALLAH does not injustice.
More, if you are not agreed, Tell a person (male) who showed such a extreme performance/action compare to woman that is considered most important or valuable achievement of man Intellectuality in life and life hereafter.
A.Karime,Jacobabad |
|
Irsalfwalsh
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Tuesday, March 8, 2005 - 7:15 PM
with the name of Allah
>>>>This is the kind of thinking that stops Muslim from advancing in technology where as the kafir's have advanced by leaps and bounds.
all those experiencing usage of the unwanted words like caphir seem to be socially deprived rather socially rejected, revealing their only real inner motive. they need to be reformed.
salam |
|
karime
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, March 10, 2005 - 2:34 PM
Dear Bro Loveall
A.A
QUOITE: THE END …………NO FURTHER BY ME
It is seen that not only in this forum but also in (competitions, debates, films, media programs, mullas or scholars controversies and in our regular life) such discussions are made by the makers at their own end. Even the creators or programmers or makers of these not get their purpose or result in the best end of what purpose they have started this and what they have received.
We often leave or show a cold shoulder to each other when we are unable to move further and get the finest result. If we were able to get any result or answer of our questions then we would have not need to think or read any more and more in Hadith and Quran and just followed it. This is not the last era of the world or we are not the last people of age that we have to decide what is write and what is wrong. There were, are and will be controversies till it sets.
Every one tried to prove himself the best in the past, and we, people of present do & does not agree with those past ones, and there is and will be time when our arguments or practices will be disagreed and depraved.
Like this, here, every one makes own ideas and sense of thinking (I myself) no one agrees to other but if he agrees a little, it is because of his less knowledge and experience, but not by heart and soul. There is only one Quran but there are many people to think over it but could not, some one tells the meaning, some one describes events of time and some one original purpose and some sense of mind, some to prove by nature, some one by reason…..etc.
No one is ready to accept. But acceptance/understanding exits itself in the every nature or soul of the people, he/she/he she not may agree or disagree (this sense is for all humanity, you need not satisfy non-Muslims by your religion.) it isAllah HE kept that sense in every one. AND THIS SENSE IS CALLED INTELLECTUALITY. (Given to every one equally)
Al- Quran & Hadith are the best organs or particulars that improve, polish or proceed your intellect in the best way. The way that Allah ordered to lead.
QUOTE: Personally, my sensuousness will never forgive me if my wife does not do the same after being beaten by me.
Men are more proud, arrogant, rude and cruel than women.
Women show more patience and tolerance than men.
Women Love more than men.
As a net calculation of the deeds, God seems to be more near the women than men except the distinguished ones.
The above checklist and much more, is production of THAT INCTELLECT, how much you understand and apply. (now if you go for the good,will get better and best and so on )
Intellectuality is not made of above that you call some one superior or inferior (as these and many other your examples, body building, competition, physically, proud, ….etc.)
This is intellectuality that makes or understand you so (Men are more proud, arrogant, rude and cruel than women.Women show more patience and tolerance than men.Women Love more than men).I believe. This sense you are losing yourself and call the man superior in the regard.
Anyway, you can raise more questions of answers and in answers of those questions too, so and so.
QUOTE:
I could not understand the meaning of this womanhoiod paragraph, if somewhat then it seems much to underweigh the hard work of your mail to steep down its dots abruptly on the graph paper just above the baseline otherwise it was little bit clicking my synaptic transmission.
I am not much interested to be the top or the best controverser and have not much knowledge to list any one who does not know his No. in the list himself.
Anyway, may allah help you, me and everyone to know more and more ….
A.karim, Jacobabad |
|
Mikai
UNITED KINGDOM
|
 Posted - Monday, March 21, 2005 - 12:23 AM
Asa loveall
Well I took some time off the Internet since I was not well and was hoping to answer your reply to my post later but surprisingly your post is not there anymore. Scrolling through I noticed all your posts have been taken out. I’m assuming you have deleted them.
Well whatever your reasons are, I hope maybe you had a change in heart about your opinions on the lack of intelligence capability of women compared to men. I agree that there are differences between men and women, but these differences do not mean that women do not have the capability to be able to increase their intelligence to great heights like men. It does not mean they have weaker memories, weaker concentration and are less spiritual.
Come on are we blind to what has gone on through the years? How far women have come, the freedom women fought for and won? The position women have reached today required not just having intelligence, but using this intelligence they were blessed with and to improve it to great heights that Allah Swt has blessed them with. Without them being able to do that they would not have been able to reach where they are today.
If men were truly more intelligent and superior, women would have not been able to get this far and do the many things men did only by themselves, men would always be able to out smart them and keep them down from progressing in anything. But women needed intelligence to get this far and women needed the capability of developing their intelligence to get this far. Women also needed great confidence, strength and will power; they needed great social skills to be able to get people to hear their voices and many other factors. 
Well is that what has happened? Yes. Women have become doctors, dentists, plastic surgeons, charity workers, vets, lawyers, teachers, social workers, computer scientists and I could just go on and on.
Both men and women learn the exact same information at college and university, both are asked the same questions, both are given the same tasks to complete, both are given the same exams, both have to think in the same ways to answer the questions correctly. Both are given the same time limits in able to do their homework.
If truly females found improving their intelligence harder then men, had weaker memories, and lower concentration levels then wouldn’t this be recognised in schools, colleges and universities by now? Wouldn’t there be different teaching methods for females compared to males, simpler exams, and different time limits in order to complete the work etc? Wouldn’t young boys be in a higher class then girls of the same age so they can progress faster instead of having to fall behind with the girls because they concentrate less, have weaker memories and lack intelligence? You see this would be a big thing to ignore if females truly were lacking behind in school compared to males.
So are men better at most jobs then women in terms of their intellectual abilities, I don’t believe so unless a whole load of surveys are done in all these different jobs proving men are doing their jobs better then women and showing how they are using their intelligence compared to women. (Bear in mind I am not including jobs where physical strength is required because no doubt in my mind men are designed by Allah Swt to be better in such jobs then women).
I was amazed when you said that men’s handicraft work is more distinguished then women’s, have you looked at this on a giant scale, throughout the world?
None of us can really tell whether men have greater intellectual capabilities then women by just looking at the actual results of what men and women do. One would have to do some serious deep research. To compare a man and woman’s intelligence, one would have to look at their background and see what education they were given, what levels of development they went through, did both have the same opportunities, go to the same school, have the same teachers, did both have a good family life or did they go through depression etc. The point I’m making here is that factors in one’s early life can have a major impact on their intellectual development when they are older and could prevent them from reaching their full intellectual capabilities.
So because of what I just said its obvious that when looking at this world one would find that most men are more intelligent then women, but why is that? Is it because women just don’t have the same intellectual capabilities then men or is it because most women were not given the same chance as men, education, opportunities, encouragement, security, influences, confidence etc? 
So overall I believe men and women have been blessed with the same intellectual capabilities, some jobs men may be better at, some women maybe be better at, some both men and women will be good at the same level, but this is not because one gender has limited intelligence then the other, its because of how they were educated and to what length they were educated.
Intelligence is a very valuable thing for both men and women to possess. Both men and women treasure intelligence, which helps them to understand the world and take them into depths of great knowledge. It is a great thing for Allah Swt to bless us with, Allumdulillah.
Why would Allah Swt tell women their intelligence is less then men’s which would install great jealousy in women and bring out some form of hatred towards the men? After all they are both human beings. 
Why would Allah Swt limit the intellectual capability of a women when He has installed in her great responsibilities to support her husband (not to simply stand there by his side, but to make decisions with him, advise him, comfort him, remind him etc) to bring her children up as good intellectual knowledgeable Muslims, to bring herself up in the knowledge of Islam and learn about the creations of Allah Swt and the vast knowledge He has laid down for her in this world to discover.
Why would Allah Swt limit the intellectual capabilities of women, which would limit their development to gain knowledge to great depths and would cause frustration in their hearts since they know that they cannot go any further, or that no matter how much they try, they keep on forgetting or cannot concentrate?
It truly does belittle females and insults them to tell them their intelligence is less then that of males. 
The last thing I want to empahasise on is why are we here? Why did Allah Swt put us here
He put us here so that we can worship Him. He put us here so that we can obey Him and make Him happy.
But how can we do that, what is it that we humans need to do to achieve this, what has Allah Swt blessed us with? He blessed us with intelligence, because without intelligence we will not be able to fulfil Allah Swts goal. This is a one-time trip for us and all individuals are responsible for themselves regardless of gender.
Allah Swt is the Lord of justice and gives the same chances for men and women to achieve this goal. Both men and women need to educate themselves, need to increase themselves in knowledge and need to develop. Both need to look towards the Holy Qu’ran and the sunnah. Both need to look at the wonders Allah Swt has left for them on the earth to discover. Allah Swt would not give men a better chance of achieving this goal than women. 
It is intelligence that will help men and women reach this goal. Both are treated fairly and it would seem unjust if men had better memories, concentration abilities, and higher intellectual capabilities. To think how men would have easier times being able to learn about Islam and memorising duas, while women will find it more difficult or will not be able to do it at all.
Well even though you have finished with this discussion (no probs) I hope you can read my reply, but this is for everybody too. This is a pretty deep topic, I think I could go on and on but I will stop here.
Edited by: mikai on Monday, March 21, 2005 12:38 AM |
|
Loveall
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 12:21 AM
Dear Mikai,
Assalamo Alaikum.
QUOTE: Well I took some time off the Internet since I was not well and was hoping to answer your reply to my post later but surprisingly your post is not there anymore.
Hope you are well. May God help you, Aameen!
ON YOUR REQUEST, the reply is hereby submitted. See below.
Quote: Adam must have said to her, "i know better than you, i have more intelligence!!!")
If you are taking the example of Adam (Aleh salam) why you do not say Adam was made by God himself directly but Eve not like that, and asked angels to do Sajda to Adam but not Eve. Moreover creation of Adam primary but that of Eve secondary and His disobedience due to Eve primary and Adam secondary.
QUOTE: You see this would be a big thing to ignore if females truly were lacking behind in school compared to males.
Why are you commenting without knowing the meaning of intellect, which I have repeatedly defined as in the textbooks? Is their any problem to understand- impaired computation, some communicating problem, a polar attitude of everyone or bigotry? Do we know more than the experts? You must know that intellect and intelligence are two different entities. Tell intellect and intelligence one and the same to the concerned people, they will show you a huge dustbin OR change the statement like “So are Women really intelligently deprived?” instead of “So are Women really intellectually deprived?”
QUOTE: So are men better at most jobs then women in terms of their intellectual abilities, I don’t believe so unless a whole load of surveys are done in all these different jobs proving men are doing their jobs better then women and showing how they are using their intelligence compared to women.
I was amazed when you said that men’s handicraft work is more distinguished then women’s, have you looked at this on a giant scale, throughout the world?
You mean, for example, to know efficacy of any drug or procedure to check it on the whole population of the world. If you do not know the protocol of studies/research and the statistics, please forgive me and do not call me back. You can’t defend yourself by beating about the bush. Remember, a fish of the lake can easily make dazzled that of the well but not that of the sea, which may sputter. I am also amazed why people do not feel embarrassed to beat the air in front of those who know the subject technically. What is this type of attitude called?
QUOTE: This is a pretty deep topic, I think I could go on and on but I will stop here.
Obviously all women are agreed on being same as men in all aspects. You can go on and on as you have the right. Please tell me.
WHO WILL BELL THE CAT (individually)? This is the essence not the lectures that seem to be prettily buried in the pretty depth of the topic.
CONCLUSION: All those who can insist on the rights of Hoors even in this world, can also beat about all the bushes, beat the air and build castles in the air… Subhan’Allah.
MORAL: “An adventure on conjecture”
Edited by: Loveall on Thursday, March 24, 2005 8:27 PM |
|
Mikai
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 5:42 PM
Asa Loveall, jazakallah for asking about my health, Allumdullilah i am better.
ok then so i am focusing on the wrong word, opologies for that but since you deleted all your posts i never had a chance to view them properly. I am happy to admit that I never thought there was such a difference between the definitions of the words intelligent and intellect. But regardless both are still very closely related.
I thought i would have a quick look at the oxford dictionary and I chose some defintions related to this topic, here they are below.
Intellect: the capacity for understanding, thinking and learning
Intellectual: a highly intelligent person
Intelligence: the capacity for understanding; ability to percieve and comprehend meaning
Intelligent: having or indicating intelligence
Well i may have been using the word intelligence in my last post but you can just imagine that i used the word intellect as well.
Lastly please dont use my form of reply or anyone elses reply as a sign that we dont have intelligence or intellect which would leave me to believe that you are a very narrow minded person. The word to use is knowledge which is a key part in developing a persons intellect and intelligence. For e.g. I see that you have a interesting way of expressing your opinions in your post where i prefer a much more simpler way of expressing mine. I personally believe its because of the way we both were taught and the influences we had in our lives. How we are taught from childhood has a major effect on our intellect and intelligence in the future. Some can understand better, some cant, some can use more posh words some cant, some can memorise better, some cant, some can communicate better, some cant, some can compute better and i can just go on and on. Women in general never really had good chances of developing all these areas as much as men were able to.
Yes we can easily label ourselves as having a certain level of intellect or intelligence but that does not mean we do not have the ability to improve these two areas. This is where I believe that Allah Swt has blessed both men and women with the ability to reach the same level of intellect and intelligence, He Swt has not limited women in only being able to reach a lower level then men. Whether women will ever reach that level, well i believe they have either already got there or are getting very close.
If you don't mind (I know someone asked you before) where is your evidence from the Qu'ran to back up your points? If Allah Swt said clearly that women are limited compared to men then i have nothing to argue about, but if you are basing your views from observations in this world then all i can say is you got a lot more research to do!
Anyway dont take anything the wrong way.
Il try and respond to the rest of your post later if you are still interested in hearing my views.
Lastly why bring up the hoor issue, are you applying your moral to both my opinions on this topic and the hoor topic? It's a shame that logical thinking, reasoning and fairness don't seem to have any value these days especially when backed up with evidence from the Shariah. Why not just say "yeah you have some good points, who knows maybe you're right maybe i'm right, in the end only Allah knows, may He guide us both".
May Allah Swt have mercy on us, and if i am wrong in my views then may He correct my way of thinking and if my views are not wrong may He correct the ones who think differently. May our Lord show us the true beauty and message of Islam which shows love for both men and women and treats them both with dignity and respect, honour and justice. May Allah Swt give peace to both men and women and treat them with equality in how He see's equality. May He enable us to see the true message of His religion.
Ameen
|
|
xxbasxx
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Tuesday, April 5, 2005 - 6:16 PM
i really couldn't be bothered to read it all but as far as i know, men and women are equal except for a few differences:
men dont give birth
men are one degree responsibler
women are better
no im just kidding :P i hate it when people start asking eachother who's better; men or women??
its all down to opinion really ^_^
we had this debate in school the other day. the girls had to come up with an argument about why guys are better than girls and the boys had to come up with a counter argument to that: why GIRLS are better than guys
it was quite interesting getting all the compliments. i must say, the guys had a lot of nice things to say about us!
and we had a lot of nice things to say about guys too
but no one commented on intelectual status because its totally obvious that we're the same! men and women both invented stuff, they both discovered stuff and they both did great things
and im sick of being told that all the Prophets were men!! well of corse they were but who gave birth to them?? their dads??? NO Astaghfiurllah! it was the women! and what does that have to do with who's smarter??
what a useless circle im going in
men and women are as smart as each other. period.
its not about your gender, its about yer noggin! and wether you're a guy or a girl has nothing to do with the way you think
.xXx. Salamz .xXx. |
|
 Reply to Topic 
Printer Friendly |
| Jump To: |
|
|
|