| Author | Topic |
oosman
USA
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 Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 3:32 AM 
nida,
quote:
It’s like saying (within the context of modesty) “I was told to cover my naval with my top… so I took off my top and wrapped it around my belly”… Illogical. But this is the position of the liberal Muslim
This is not the position of a liberal Muslim. The position of a liberal Muslim is to dress modestly and have taqwa. Each of us can use our own aql to decide if head should be covered or not, if navel and thighs, etc should be covered or not. These are the specifics not detailed by Allah, so we can choose what is modest and pious. I am sure no one will say a belly-dancer dresses modestly, even she has the aql to not say such a thing. We all have enough God given aql. |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:35 AM
actually oosman, that analogy is in referece to the logic employed by liberal muslims. And it 100% is.
So please dont be disingenuous and deny that.
The analogy is, you say, well Allah says cover the chest with the head scarf. So that means we can take off the scarf and only cover our chest.
salaam |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:33 PM
I am afraid that is your analogy, not mine. I do not think like that. Perhaps some other people do, yet I have to see one.
I have made it clear, I think Allah wants us to dress modestly, and there are not very many specifics In the holy Quran as to how. So it leaves it up to us to do our best.
Any person with common sense knows that uncovering the navel area or thighs is not modest. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 4:38 PM
quote:
The analogy is, you say, well Allah says cover the chest with the head scarf. So that means we can take off the scarf and only cover our chest.
I did not say take off the head scarf.
There are two possibilites:
1) the head scarf was being used to cover the head
2) the head scarf was just used as a decorative ornament and not to cover the head
IF case 1 is true, then you should continue using it as head cover + cover the chest also with it
IF case 2 is true, then just cover the chest
In any case, it is no requirement to cover the head otherwise it would have been CLEARLY mentioned.
I have made it clear, I think Allah wants us to dress modestly, and there are not very many specifics In the holy Quran as to how. So it leaves it up to us to do our best.
Any person with common sense knows that uncovering the navel area or thighs is not modest |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 5:01 PM
quote:
quote:
The analogy is, you say, well Allah says cover the chest with the head scarf. So that means we can take off the scarf and only cover our chest.
I did not say take off the head scarf.
There are two possibilites:
1) the head scarf was being used to cover the head
2) the head scarf was just used as a decorative ornament and not to cover the head
IF case 1 is true, then you should continue using it as head cover + cover the chest also with it
IF case 2 is true, then just cover the chest
In any case, it is no requirement to cover the head otherwise it would have been CLEARLY mentioned.
I have made it clear, I think Allah wants us to dress modestly, and there are not very many specifics In the holy Quran as to how. So it leaves it up to us to do our best.
Any person with common sense knows that uncovering the navel area or thighs is not modest
Navel or thigh is not modest? And this is from common sense? So you agree that Allah has not specifically stated that you must cover them... so what if my common sense is not like yours and I say actually there is nothing wrong with uncovering my navel?
And lets turn it around again. what if my common sense, and that of the majority states that it is modest to cover the head?
Oosman, Allah was specific in the way he dealt with modesty in dress. you just want it to be specific in YOUR style of: -
cover your: -
head, neck, shoulders, chest, arms, stomach, rear end, privates, thighs, knees, lower legs and ankles.
My article proves, when you take all of it into consideration that head covering is mandatory.
salaam |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:32 PM
quote:
Navel or thigh is not modest? And this is from common sense? So you agree that Allah has not specifically stated that you must cover them...
Allah has not specifically stated DO NOT EAT sharks.
Allah has not specifically stated you may EAT whale.
The issue is left to one's sense. And there can be a difference of opinion on this. |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 6:38 PM
quote:
you really can't say that covering the head is not included in modesty.
Some people will also say, covering the face is included in modesty.
Many scholars claim that even if covering the face is not obligatory it is mustahib, hence highly recommended. |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 9:16 PM
quote:
quote:
you really can't say that covering the head is not included in modesty.
Some people will also say, covering the face is included in modesty.
Many scholars claim that even if covering the face is not obligatory it is mustahib, hence highly recommended.
They may say so, but Allah has not required it or implied it. so that point is irrelevant.
salaam |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 14, 2006 - 10:04 PM
[quote They may say so, but Allah has not required it or implied it. so that point is irrelevant.
But according to your article:
Lane’s Lexicon: -
“A woman's muffler, or veil with which she covers her head and the lower part of her face, leaving exposed only the eyes and part or whole of the nose, such is the خمار worn in the present day: a kind of veil which in Turkish is called يشمق; a woman's head-covering.” |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 1:01 PM
i find junaidj's comment quite logical.
Junaidj: Allah has not specifically stated DO NOT EAT sharks.
Allah has not specifically stated you may EAT whale.
The issue is left to one's sense. And there can be a difference of opinion on this.
(we appreciate that due to the highly tolerant policy of the studying islam site i.e. that it gives space to various views regardless of sectarinism and prejudice of any kind, we have a great opportunity here to look at various opinions about relevant verses of Qura'n and the prophet sws's sayings to help make our minds and practice, using our own sense and logic as well in the light of this knowledge, instead of following any person blindly.) |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 4:34 PM
quote:
quote:
Navel or thigh is not modest? And this is from common sense? So you agree that Allah has not specifically stated that you must cover them...
Allah has not specifically stated DO NOT EAT sharks.
Allah has not specifically stated you may EAT whale.
The issue is left to one's sense. And there can be a difference of opinion on this.
There is no difference of opinion, such food as shark and whale is halal for us as Allah has not forbidden them.
Regarding the clothing, there is no Qur'anic difference of opinion on this issue. It is CLEARLY Qur'anically mandated that the woman MUST cover her head.
I am sorry to say, but some of you guys are practising kufr by willingly denying this fact under such pathetic pretences. |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 4:43 PM
quote:
[quote They may say so, but Allah has not required it or implied it. so that point is irrelevant.
But according to your article:
Lane’s Lexicon: -
“A woman's muffler, or veil with which she covers her head and the lower part of her face, leaving exposed only the eyes and part or whole of the nose, such is the خمار worn in the present day: a kind of veil which in Turkish is called يشمق; a woman's head-covering.”
Yes, but Lisan al Arab and the other source did not put that as one of the meanings, it just says that its is what a woman covers her head with.
Also, Lane alludes "such is the خمار worn in the present day" meaning that this is a meaning he is either deriving or seeing in his modern day. In the last he, like lisan al arab, puts, a woman's headcovering.
Please junaid and the rest, stop looking for insincere and illogical reasons to be more liberal. Just accept the reality that women MUST cover their heads and neck/chest with their khimar.
And on the point of logic, words CAN have shades of meaning, we choose the one that best suits the context, the khimar in the Qur'an merely states that only what is (necessarily) apparent can be left so, and I gave you the other ayah which tells men to lower their gaze from women, implying that something could be apparent.
Qur'anically, the range of meanings for khimar could potentially be from covering the face except the eyes (minimum exposure) to uncovering the whole face (maximum exposure). Depending on what needs to be exposed. This is the only flexibility I see.
Edited by: marwan on Wednesday, November 15, 2006 4:45 PM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 5:20 PM
quote:
There is no difference of opinion, such food as shark and whale is halal for us as Allah has not forbidden them.
http://www.mahmoodiyah.org.za/faq144.htm
I saw a Hanafi website which said that the whale is Halaal
As for the shark, another website mentioned it to be called the dog of the sea and according to Hanafi Ulamaa the dog of the sea is Haraam. The reference given was (Jassaas).
http://bewley.virtualave.net/bukhari38.html
[Note: in Arabic a shark is kalb al-bahr, sea dog.]
*********************
Anyway, following is further disagreement on the issue of sea animals.
http://www.albalagh.net/qa/sea_food_madhahib.shtml
According to the Hanbaliy and Shafi'ee scholars, all living creatures that live in the sea are halal, whether they are in the form of a fish or not.
According to the Maliki scholars, every living creature of the sea is halal except eel.
According to the Hanafi scholars, the only living creatures of the sea that are permissible are those that are in the form of a fish with an exception of the hagfish and eel.
Hence, according to the Hanafi scholars, it will not be permissible to eat oyster, oyster extract, shrimp and lobsters.
********************************
quote:
Regarding the clothing, there is no Qur'anic difference of opinion on this issue.
NIQAB SUPPORTERS
http://muttaqun.com/niqab.html
Tafseer - Ibn Katheer
"Allah commanded the muslim women to cover this sheet on top of them to cover their bodies except one eye, when it is necessary for them to come out of their homes." Text
HIJAB SUPPORTERS
http://www.worldofislam.netfirms.com/hijabniqab.html
WHY I WEAR HIJAB NOT NIQAB
SCHOLARS WHO CLAIM HIJAB IS NOT OBLIGATORY
http://www.irfi.org/articles/articles_1_50/women_in_islam.htm
Ibrahim B. Syed, president of the Islamic Research Foundation
http://www.mostmerciful.com/Hijab.htm
Dr. Zaki Badawi
and ofcourse Riffat Hassan. Fatima Mernissi and scores of others. |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 8:07 PM
quote:
This responds to what I said how?
Following is what you said, didn't you?
***************
There is no difference of opinion, such food as shark and whale is halal for us as Allah has not forbidden them.
Regarding the clothing, there is no Qur'anic difference of opinion on this issue.
************************
quote:
This responds to my paper how?
I don't think my intention was to respond to your paper.
We have had tons of discussion on this subject. Many men are obsessed with this topic.
Jhangeer Hanif and Razi have had a fine debate along the lines of the word khimr.
http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=528&pg=1&lang=&forumid=1 |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 10:08 PM
not at all dear marwan. i appreciate your effort to bring the facts as well. plz continue this as our Lord the nearest to us than our jugular vein knows our intention to gain His pleasure by discovering what is right and I strongly believe that He would not let us go astray if we are sincere in our efforts insh'Allah.
what i mentioned re: junaidj is that like many other matters we ought to accept the fact that " And there can be a difference of opinion on this."
i would be the last one to uncover my head which i started covering as a teenager not because anyone asked me to, rather in the convent school where i studied, i was looked down for this act;but my innater guidance inspired me to cover myself as much as possible.later i found out more from religious studies and chose to continue; rather covered my face for many years as well-untill my knowledge broadened about the facts from the original sources of deen, Qura'n and Sunnah and I accepted the flexibility available.
however i would not 'name and shame' a woman as kafir if she does not cover her head specifically but has otherwise covered the whole body in a perfectly modest way without making any of the parts prominent, without making her other 'zeenah' like makeup, hair ornaments(hair dye, hair perms, hair jewels etc) prominent. if she has all that on, its common sense to understand that her head should then be covered. as a matter of fact if she has made her facial features prominent by wearing lipstick,lipgloss, blush-on, mascara, eyeshadow, glitters etc. it is common sense again that she should then cover her face as well when she leaves house to go on streets or in a mixed crowd.
so my dear sr. all this originates from one's common sense what and where to cover. the revelation and the prophet's teachings give us basic guidelines about such matters and support our innate guidance. shariah/law has been given by Allah and the prophet sws in selected matters few of which for example are murder, family matters like nikah and divorse,fornication, economics like inheritance, ,political system,jihad;
we have to be very careful announcing shariah/law about every matter . you would find people giving shariah/law verdicts about listening to music for example whereas the religion outlines the rules of modesty and we ought to chose a music which does not break the laws of modesty. not to pass on the verdict of kufr for the people who listen to music of any kind.
such self made shariah/laws create extremism, wrong presentation of our beautiful deen islam and more differences to split us up further. |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, November 15, 2006 - 11:16 PM
2 points: -
I said denying what Allah commands is an ACT of kufr.
Regarding my personal opinion, it really is not, it is the message of the Qur'an. |
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