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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 7:40 AM 
Continue from top......
As soon as we accept that everything a man has and does is better, all that follows is just a knee jerk reaction: if men have it—we want it too. If men pray in the front rows, we assume this is better, so we want to pray in the front rows too. If men lead prayer, we assume the imam is closer to God, so we want to lead prayer too. Somewhere along the line we’ve accepted the notion that having a position of worldly leadership is some indication of one’s position with God.
A Muslim woman does not need to degrade herself in this way. She has God as a standard. She has God to give her value; she doesn’t need a man.
In fact, in our crusade to follow men, we, as women, never even stopped to examine the possibility that what we have is better for us. In some cases we even gave up what was higher only to be like men.
Fifty years ago, society told us that men were superior because they left the home to work in factories. We were mothers. And yet, we were told that it was women’s liberation to abandon the raising of another human being in order to work on a machine. We accepted that working in a factory was superior to raising the foundation of society—just because a man did it.
Then after working, we were expected to be superhuman—the perfect mother, the perfect wife, the perfect homemaker—and have the perfect career. And while there is nothing wrong, by definition, with a woman having a career, we soon came to realize what we had sacrificed by blindly mimicking men. We watched as our children became strangers and soon recognized the privilege we’d given up.
And so only now—given the choice—women in the West are choosing to stay home to raise their children. According to the United States Department of Agriculture, only 31 percent of mothers with babies, and 18 percent of mothers with two or more children, are working full-time. And of those working mothers, a survey conducted by Parenting Magazine in 2000, found that 93% of them say they would rather be home with their kids, but are compelled to work due to 'financial obligations'. These ‘obligations’ are imposed on women by the gender sameness of the modern West, and removed from women by the gender distinctiveness of Islam.
It took women in the West almost a century of experimentation to realize a privilege given to Muslim women 1400 years ago.
Given my privilege as a woman, I only degrade myself by trying to be something I’m not--and in all honesty--don’t want to be: a man. As women, we will never reach true liberation until we stop trying to mimic men, and value the beauty in our own God-given distinctiveness.
If given a choice between stoic justice and compassion, I choose compassion. And if given a choice between worldly leadership and heaven at my feet—I choose heaven. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, March 6, 2007 - 7:30 PM
dear usmani790,
Of the first hadith you quoted, I think Abu-Bakra is one the persons in the isnads and he was punished by Omer for slandering another man. According to the holy Quran we must reject the testimony of any man guilty of slandering when there are not 4 witnesses to zina. Please verify this, and if true, then the hadith is in doubt.
As for your statement quoted below:
quote:
And it is abundantly clear that throughout his life time neither did he, nor his companions pray behind a woman in private or public.
junaid's article contradicts your statement. Either he is wrong, or you are wrong.
Women need not take the place of men and need not mimic what men do for the sake nothing. There are many aspects of Arab pagan and local cultures that have crept into Islam. Among such things are honor killings, underage child marriages, preventing women from contributing to society, from education, from jobs, etc. We need to distinguish what is Shariah and what is pagan culture.
Today we see women can do everything that men do, they are only limited in their physical capacity when they are in menses, in labor, pregnant, nursing, or menopause. Besides these times, there is nothing stopping them except pagan customs imposed on them in the name of religion by fundamentalists. We need to weed out these pagan things from Islam by understanding what is Shariah. Otherwise we will continue to be left behind as we are now. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 9:05 AM
quote:
. According to the holy Quran we must reject the testimony of any man guilty of slandering when there are not 4 witnesses to zina. Please verify this, and if true, then the hadith is in doubt.
will you plz quote that verse from Quran. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 9:35 AM
quote:
Women need not take the place of men and need not mimic what men do for the sake nothing.
well said OOsman,I must appreciate.
We are prejudiced and degrade women when we say she should be like man.A women should just be a good women as a man to be a good man.
when we say indian cricket team ,it means Indian male cricket team and we have women single and male singles,this is perfectly ok,no one questions.The players capability is different and so there fields and teams are.
Being scientific and logical can reduce you to be a robot and to transform into colorful human being one definetly need artistic sense and emotions.
Now come back to the topic,I think its a question of preference of order means ,you are taking 5th step after 2nd.It sounds like giving reservation or quota to the women.You deserve and you can but you dont have level of acceptence .The acceptence is required coz you are going to deal with the society. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 9:57 AM
Dear Oosman
Quote:-Of the first hadith you quoted, I think Abu-Bakra is one the persons in the isnads and he was punished by Omer for slandering another man. According to the holy Quran we must reject the testimony of any man guilty of slandering when there are not 4 witnesses to zina. Please verify this, and if true, then the hadith is in doubt.
My finding is the same as yours as far as bukhari is concerned. I think when Iman bukhari himself compile this hadith in his work and others learned people accepts the narration from Abu-Bakra(RA).Its give me confidence to accept this hadith.As far as the verse of Quran is this verse may not fit to him as the evidences of the incident show that even though was caught in the witness ground due the forth witness pull pack. But he was regarded as a respected companion of Prophet(pbuh).
Quote:-junaid's article contradicts your statement. Either he is wrong, or you are wrong.
Just one or two isolated events are not good enough to established that woman is used lead the prayer as comparison with the 1400 years history.
Quote:- We need to weed out these pagan things from Islam by understanding what is Shariah. Otherwise we will continue to be left behind as we are now.
That is exactly what Allah has warned us from in the Qur’an when He dispraised the disbelievers saying, (Or have they partners (of Allah) who have made lawful for them in religion that which Allah allowed not?) (Ahs-Shura 42: 21)
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also warned against the same wrongdoing in the hadith which states, “Whoever innovates in this matter of ours (i.e., in our religion) whatever is not in it, that innovated thing is rejected” (Al-Bukhari and Muslim). The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “Beware of innovated matters, for every novelty is perversity” (Ahmad in his Musnad and regarded as authentic). All scholars are resolved that acts of worship are unchangeable and must be taken exactly as Allah has ordained them. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 3:01 PM
dear usmani790,
I think we both agree we need to weed out the innovations.
The only difference is what you regard an innovation and what I regard an innovation are different things. Who will judge between us?
For now, we should accept each other's belief and show tolerance. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 5:43 PM
Dear Oosman
We are discussing the shariah here and what elsc could be the judje other than Quran and Sunnah.Now what we have to see that who is speaking from his own intellect and who is providing more referances from Quran and Sunnah in the support what he says.
I can accept only when you will provide some referance.We need to realize that what ever looks good to us sitting in USA and Pakistan can not become shariah.If I will accept any thing from you blindly in the name of tolerance I may make you feel good about it but I am affraid I may get angry to our creater.Thats forsure both of us will never wish that.
Regards, |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 7:59 PM
Dear Usmani790,
Tolerance does not mean expecting others to follow your belief system. I do not expect you to follow my belief, and you should not expect me to follow yours. Just because you think something is Shariah does not mean it is Shariah. We are debating here what is Shariah and what is not.
1) Quran and Sunnah are the sources of Shariah
2) Dubious hadith are not part of Shariah
You have used dubious hadith and claim it is Shariah. I disagree with you. If you quote from the Quran or Sunnah, then I will accept it. The onus is on you to bring forth some evidence from Quran and Sunnah.
On this particular topic, I am with Mr Ghamdi.
You have the right to believe what you like, and I expect you to let me do the same. No one has given you or me any authority to impose what we believe is Shariah onto others, especially something based on dubious hadith. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Wednesday, March 7, 2007 - 10:37 PM
Qur'an and the prophet's teachings are quiet on this issue of a woman either leading a congregational prayer as an imam or as a leader of a state. it has niether promoted nor denied this possibility and has left it to the situation and need of the time to be decided on the basis of common sense, logic and the basic rules of modesty given by islam.
its a common sense that generally a woman has many many more responsibilities re: a family creation and broughtup, training etc. her physical health needs looking after herself not only during the reproductive years of her life, rather around menopause as well along with its psychological effects.
god has been kind to her  not giving her such duties that men can do in their fields--however if need arose, it is flexible and open enough to adjust accordingly whilst keeping some basic manners and rules of the duties as well as modesty. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, March 8, 2007 - 5:06 AM
Dear Oosman
Quote:-You have used dubious hadith and claim it is Shariah.
That is main differance between us, you without having good knowledge can say a hadith dubious, while my self also having no good knowledge affraid of saying this to any hadith,rather fellow the experts opinions. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, March 9, 2007 - 12:36 AM
dear usmani790,
Does it not surprise you that the so called 'experts' accept the testimony of a person who accused another person of zina, then he was punished by Umar for slander? Does the holy Quran not ask us to reject such a testimony?
Why did the respected imam bukhari accept this hadith when he knew this about abu-bakra? It calls into question the reliability of the 'expert', does it not?
I say even if Abu-Bakra was honest and did not lie, it then becomes a matter of principles that we follow the Quran. The Quran says reject his testimony. It is clear as day light.
Let us first follow the Quran. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, March 9, 2007 - 7:18 AM
Dear Oosman,
Any way this is not the only hadith I have posted in the forum, others many ahadith already quoted here, are more clear to the main issue in discussion.
You have just your own words to explain things,yours or any one elsc own words would not be much helpfull, if they are without any support of refferences from Quran and Prophetic explanations.Yours or any one else expert opinions could only be helpful when there will be no reference from main sources of the religion.
Thats how we could only follow the Quran. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, March 9, 2007 - 3:43 PM
dear usmani790,
I am afraid these are not my words, as I learnt these things from other scholars and I agree with them.
I am also afraid I do not agree in your dubious hadith and experts as it leads to wrong conclusion that is not affirmed anywhere in the Quran.
Ultimately we judge from the Quran, the hadith you quoted clearly adds something that is not presented to us in the holy Quran and cannot be corraborated, plus it has a suspicious person in its isnad.
I do not think Hanafi jurists and other scholars of the past were super humans and that there word is absolute in any way. We must be critical of everything and use our intellect in the light of the guidance from the holy Quran, otherwise we are blindly following others.
IN the end, I respect your right to your beliefs and will show you tolerance. You are trying your best with good intentions to learn, and I respect you for that.
Edited by: oosman on Friday, March 09, 2007 3:44 PM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Friday, March 9, 2007 - 10:43 PM
quote:
Just one or two isolated events are not good enough to established that woman is used lead the prayer as comparison with the 1400 years history.
The case of Umme Ammarah fighting in Jihad is also an isolated one.
And despite the Prophet's statement that for women Hajj is Jihad, female fighter pilots have been inducted into the Pakistan army without much protest from the religious clergy.
Likewise it was no big deal for women to go shield the men trapped in the Palestinian mosque, recently.
It seems, the issue arises when women lead prayers, become leaders of nations, but when it comes down to them giving up their lives in the battle field, no one even raises an eyebrow.
Edited by: junaidj on Friday, March 09, 2007 10:44 PM |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 5:34 AM
Dear Oosman,
Quote:-I am afraid these are not my words, as I learnt these things from other scholars and I agree with them.
Don't you feel any need to verify it from the main sources.Don't you wish to make sure that you are not following those scholars blindly?
Quote:-We must be critical of everything and use our intellect in the light of the guidance from the holy Quran, otherwise we are blindly following others.
How I will know that what ever you saying here is according the light of Quran,unless you will not share the verses of Quran with us.
I also appreciate you for your efforts to know the knowledge of our deen.Yours presence here is a clear prove of it.
Jazak Allah Khairen |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, March 10, 2007 - 5:44 AM
Quote:-It seems, the issue arises when women lead prayers, become leaders of nations, but when it comes down to them giving up their lives in the battle field, no one even raises an eyebrow.
Just sitting in drawing and talking is very eassy thing to do,I know who was fighting in Afghan jihad and how many woman they took there along with them.Who is fighting in Afganistan now and who is condemn the mujahaheen who are fighting there and giving their lifes.
Edited by: usmani790 on Saturday, March 10, 2007 5:54 AM |
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