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ubatchelor
AUSTRALIA
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 Posted - Monday, December 6, 2004 - 10:04 AM 
Excluding Polythiest from entering into the Holy City of Mecca is a commandement from Allah as mentioned in 9:28. As for Non-Muslims which includes People of the Book(Ahl AlKitab) is a policy of the Saudi Government.
The Policy may be a good one. I went to Haj this year and it was crowded. So crowded infact that a few hundred people passed away. If there were more people coming for Haj, the outcome could possibly be more deaths.
Eventhough, I dont agree everything that the Saudis Govt are doing....On this issue I would agree with them.
As for Madina, I dont believe there are any commandments which enforce the prohibition of anyone to enter the City...Except ofcourse the Dajjal sometime in the future But the saudis have prohibited NonMuslims to enter the city. The reason...I dont know. If anyone knows, please do inform me. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, December 6, 2004 - 4:18 PM
quote:
Excluding Polythiest from entering into the Holy City of Mecca is a commandement from Allah as mentioned in 9:28. As for Non-Muslims which includes People of the Book(Ahl AlKitab) is a policy of the Saudi Government.
Agreed. For the benefit of other participants, I'm pasting the text of the said verse as follows:
O you who believe, the Mushrikoon - i.e. the polytheists - are indeed unclean. Therefore, they should not even come near the Sacred Mosque after this year. [9:28]
So, no polytheists allowed near the Sacred Mosque, but otherwise, there seems to be no indication disallowing non-polytheistic non-Muslims.
Thanks.
Wasalaam. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, December 6, 2004 - 4:24 PM
One question, though. Marmaduke Pickthall translates verse 9:28 as follows:
O ye who believe! The idolaters only are unclean. So let them not come near the Inviolable Place of Worship after this their year. If ye fear poverty (from the loss of their merchandise) Allah shall preserve you of His bounty if He will. Lo! Allah is Knower, Wise.
We know from history that the pagans brought great merchandise and business to the Meccans, during their pilgrimages to the Ka'bah. So could it be that only polytheists of those times were forbidden?
I would like to study this with fellow members, if anyone's interested.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, December 12, 2004 - 8:38 PM
With the Name of Allah, the most Merciful and Gracious!
Salam to all,
I could not yet understand why the clear commandments in Quran and Hadees need to be explored further when we have been addressed by Quran, as Oh! People, who have believed. If we are believers then we have to believe blindly regardless of Saudi Government’s decisions. We must not enquire why Mahram is required at the places mentioned and not others. If said in Hadees, Mahram is required then the matter is finished i.e. Mahram is required without knowing further. If some concession is required, is clearly mentioned as a patient and a traveller are exempted from fasting then complete fully after the situation is over.
According to me and sorry, if we explore further then who are the believers those are being addressed. If we are so much curious why we don’t explore the graves to know the things? The answer is believing blindly otherwise we are joking with the commandments of Allah and his beloved prophet (sws) as said in Quran.
In the end it is summarized as, a woman can never ever go without Mahram to Macca/Manina regardless of Saudi Government’s decisions.
With regards!
Loveall |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, December 13, 2004 - 8:10 PM
quote:
With the Name of Allah, the most Merciful and Gracious!
Salam to all,
I could not yet understand why the clear commandments in Quran and Hadees need to be explored further when we have been addressed by Quran, as Oh! People, who have believed.
Loveall, Assalaamu Alaikum.
Could you please let me know which Qur'anic verse you talk of, referring to disallowing women travel without Mahrams?
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, December 13, 2004 - 11:42 PM
With the Name of Allah, the most Merciful and Gracious!
Dear happy Madam, Assalaamu’alaikum,
The sentence you quoted above, I have written in general for us, not specific for Mahram e.g. in Quranic verse (2.282) I have seen the ratio of men and women 1:2 misunderstood by someone but I was fearful of pointing out due to the experiences.
So far as my knowledge is concerned there is no Quranic reference favouring the presence of Mahram but according to my belief, “O people who have believed” is same for Ahadith as well. We know very well the Quranic verse (3.31), “In, Kuntum, Tohibbun-Allah-a, Fattabe-oonee, Yohbibkum-u-Allah……” (Say: If you love Allah, then follow me, Allah will Love you and forgive you your faults, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful) It must be remembered that this “Fattabe-oonee (follow me- Holy Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him)” differentiates us from the nonmuslims.
Regarding Mahram Ahadith are clear. Suppose we do not understand clearly and you know more than me, If there is doubt in some matter we have to follow the standard e.g. if I am in doubt that my Wodhhu has broken, although not, I will have to repeat fully. Suppose latest technology is not available and we are unable to see the “Shawal” moon due to clouds etc, although the moon is present, we have to fast next day in that area and same is for Mahram. This is the explanation or definition of Taqwa/piety i.e. if there is controversy then a woman goes to Macca/Madina with a Mahram it comes within Taqwa/piety otherwise not and guidance of Quran is for those who adapt Taqwa/piety (Hudallil-muttequeen (plural of Muttaquee/pious- Baqra, 2). The literary meanings of Taqwa/piety are “having absolute fear (of Almighty Allah)”. So a woman going to Macca/Madina without a Mahram is not an absolute fear of Almighty Allah.
This was the result of Taqwa/piety that only 313 not well-equipped soldiers defeated more than one lac of the well-equipped soldiers, night span prolonged till Hazrat Bilal (Raa) had spoken for “Adhan-e-Fajr” and a dry river from many years had flown by putting into it only a small chit of Hazrat Umar (Raa) and it is heard that is still flowing without any break. There are many such examples.
May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen!
With regards!
Loveall |
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ubatchelor
AUSTRALIA
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 Posted - Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 1:22 AM
Assalammualaikum,
There are various methods of interpreating the law. This is the case in Australia, USA, UK and Indonesia and also Saudi Arabia.
Part of my role at work is to interpret Australia 'Retirement Benefit' legislations. We find at times that it is hard to understand the purpose of the law. The courts at times apply an literal meaning to the law of the legislation but at times they try to understand the purpose of the law by reading the discussion that took place before parliament pass the law. Sometimes its hard to determine the purpose as there is no specific documentation to inform the purpose of the law. So Even in Western countries there are various methods to interpret the law.
Saudi Arabia is a country where they have taken Imam Ahmed bin Hambal's method of interpreting Islamic Law. His method gives more weight on the literal meaning of the quran and hadith. Furthermore, Imam Ahmed bin Hambal puts more weight on the Literal meaning of Quran and Hadiths then to use Ijtihad to derive rules of Islamic Law.
Why? Well....There is definitely the hadith where the Prophet ask Muadh ibn Jabal when he was departing to Yeman of what he should first look at at. And He mentioned the Quran. and then the Sunnah and Lastly Ijtihad. The prophet approved of this. (Reference cant remember but if you want to know...I can dig it up)
....Well, inline with the above hadith Imam ibn Hambal argues that we should use the literal meaning of the Quran and Hadiths if we can find it then only use ijtihad if there is a need to it...that is if there is no specific reference to the quran or hadith to such an extent that he prefers to use a lower-grade of Sahih hadiths than to use ijtihad. This is a method of interpretation approved among the majority of the Muslim Ummah. So if the Saudi Government uses this method and provides proof of using this method, it is acceptable.
Of course... this doesn't mean I agree that this is the best method of interpreting the Quran and Sunnah. It would always be better to know the purpose behind the law and see how the purpose can be achieved in today's time and environment. Knowing the purpose of the law is at times hard to achieve as the Quran and Hadiths doesnot always state the purpose of the law. This is similar to the view of Imam Abu Hanifa. This is my opinion...but not necessarily the best of opinion in the sight of Allah.
So in summary there are various methods of interpreting the Quran and Sunnah. Could be Literal or it could be purposive. Both could be correct.
As for the topic of Hajj and Woman. Both conclusion could be correct. Why?
If you take the literal point of view, the following hadith and other hadiths ( and yes there is no specific injunction in the quran) then it is not allowed.
Ibn 'Abbas reports: "I heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) saying: 'A man must never be alone with a woman unless there is a mahram with her. A
woman also may not travel with anyone except a mahram relative.' A man
stood up and asked: 'O Prophet of Allah! My wife has gone for Hajj while I am enlisted for such and such a battle, what should I do?" The Prophet (peace be upon him) replied, 'Go and join your wife in Hajj." (Reported by Bukhari and Muslim).
Under this circumstance, if a female has the intention to go and would have gone if there was no restriction, then Allah being Most gracious and merciful, She would get the reward of the hajj. This is supported by the following comment.
Yahya bin 'Abbad reported that a woman from Iraq wrote to Ibrahim AnNakh'i: "I have not yet performed the prescribed Hajj; for although I am
rich, I have no mahram who may accompany me on this trip." He wrote her back: "You are one of those whom Allah has not given the means to perform (Hajj)." Abu Hanifah, Al-Hassan, At-Thauri, Ahmad and Ishaq all hold a similar view on this issue.
If you take the purposive approach, by the following hadith and actions by the companions then you would conclude that the restriction at the time of the prophet was due to security and in this time and place, security is not really a big issue. Although sadly in some part of the world this is not the case.
reported by Bukhari from 'Adi ibn Hatem, who says: "I was with the Prophet (peace be upon him) when a man came to him and complained of poverty.
Another man complained about highway robbery. Thereupon the Prophet
(peace be upon him) said: 'O 'Adi! Have you seen the city of Hira in Iraq?' I said: 'No, but I have heard about it.' The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: 'If you lived long enough you will see that a woman will travel from Hira and will perform Tawaf round Ka'bah, and she will have no fear except that of Allah."
So in this hadith, the woman with taqwa travels (no mahram mentioned) to Mecca with no fear of any highway robber implying that there was a security concern when travelling at the time of the prophet.
This opinion is supported by the fact that 'Umar gave permission to the wives of the Prophet (peace be upon him) to perform Hajj while accompanied by 'Uthman and Abdur-Rahman ibn 'Awf. I'm not too sure if the group includes Hafsa bint Uthman (A mahram of Uthman).
There are also those who's view are in the middle...that is they require the woman to travel in group for her safety (also taking a purposive approach). This is the view of some Shafii Scholars.
So...In summary of the hajj issue there is a possibility of both view being correct. I view the second view as the better view as I believe that the injunction that are required of us have a reason behind them. In times where it is hard to determine the purpose of the law, we might need to take a literal approach. For example the injuction for the prohibition for the Mushrikuun to enter Mecca, I believe in the literal meaning...that is... prohibition for all times to come.
As for those who believe in the literal approach then I respect your opnion because we need to respect each other's point of view.
This is supported by the incident when the companions were informed by the prophet to head to Banu Qurayza and pray Asr when they reach there. The group travelled and on the way the time for Asr prayers was upon them and some prayed because they believed that the spirit of Asr prayer is to pray at its time. The rest of the group prayed Asr when they reached Banu Qurayza at the time of Maghrib because they believed in the literal meaning of the prophet's statement. This incident was brought to the prophet and the prophet remaind quiet...meaning that he did not correct anyone or any group but he approved both party. (again if you need the reference...I can dig it up).
I hope this helps both parties in this discussion. 
Wassalam
Umar Batchelor |
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ubatchelor
AUSTRALIA
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Posted - Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 1:24 AM
sorry about the long reply but an insight to Usul ul Fiqh and the relevant reference is important.
Umar |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 2:41 AM
Assalaamu Alaikum Bro Umar.
A long, but very sensible and objective response. I think that's the kind of approach we need our forums. At times, all of us, including myself, tend to get stuck up in rigidity - out of good faith, nevertheless. I guess your course of arguments sums up everything, and helps all participants to form their respective opinions.
I'd side with the latter i.e. not literal (or what to do when the Qur'an orders the 'killing of the unbelievers wherever we see them'?!)
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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ubatchelor
AUSTRALIA
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Posted - Thursday, December 16, 2004 - 12:50 PM
Wa alaikum Salam Warahmatullahi Wabarakatuh,
May you receive this mail in the best of Health and Iman.
I am more than happy to continue to converse with you and InshaAllah we and the readers will benefit from this discussion. I agree with you that there are alot of questions that need to be answered.
Before I attempt to answer the question, I would like to know if I really understood your questions.
When you mentioned
"1. According to the decision done by us so far, Can now women really go alone to mecca/madina? If NO which seems to be a 100% fact, how can Saudi Govt be convinced?"
Did you mean how can Saudi be convinced that they are 100% correct that Woman can not go alone to Mecca and Medina.
2. If Quran gives the facility of “Istataat” (abilities/capabilities) for Hajj which is a Fardh and why not for “Umra” and other visits?
I'm sorry to ask you this...but could you rephrase this question...Thanks :)
3. How many miserable women are in the world those have NO Mahram otherwise what are those obstacles they are facing to arrange the Mahram and, Can any obstacle, affect the decision, so far done?
Did you mean....Does a woman need to go haj if there is an obstacle to go to Haj?
4. If Mahrams are present, is their permission for the women to go alone to mecca/madina mandatory or not?
Did you mean....Is there a need to ask for permission for a woman to go alone to mecca/madina?
Awaiting your reply.
Wassalam
Umar |
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