| Author | Topic |
Junaidj
CANADA
|
 Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:50 AM 
quote:
i would be the last one to uncover my head.....
No one owes any explanation to anyone least of all to buysbodies who have nothing better to do than harp on what a female must/should/ought to do. |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:50 AM
marwan,
You cannot have it both ways. You accuse us of doing kufr by not following clear commands of Allah. And yet you say it is not explicitly said to cover the head. So how is it kufr when we do not support something that is not explicitly shariah? When it is not shariah, but your interpretation, then rejecting it cannot be kufr. Are you saying your interpretation and logical conclusion to cover the head when not explicitly stated by Allah, is Shariah?
Why do you call us Kafir? |
|
Junaidj
CANADA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 12:59 AM
quote:
Why do you call us Kafir?
It goes back to Vinod's point.
The impact of a heterodox view is only momentary. If one seizes to catch it and contemplate on it, then it is gone. Instead of dealing with this fear, one easily succumbs to the defence mechanism that kicks in. Demonize the originator of such thoughts as an attempt to "deviate" the community, "water down" God's religion and stuff like that.
This is actually a trap of the ego. It gives a false sense of being right and fighting for the right, simply because it is the view held by oneself and others for a long time. it's really a spiritual problem.
NO AMOUNT OF EDUCATION or intellectual capacity can help a person with this. It's about controlling the ego. It's about giving up presumptions of absoluteness about one's views and the willingness to be open to the possibility that the contender has got it right. It's about humility.
******************
Finally Imam Shafi's statement is reproduced:
“I am convinced about the veracity of my opinions, but I do consider it likely that they may turn out to be incorrect. Likewise, I am convinced about the incorrectness of the views different from mine, but I do concede the possibility that they may turn out to be correct.” — Imam Shafa’i
******************
Edited by: junaidj on Thursday, November 16, 2006 1:01 AM |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 1:05 AM
| well said, however the words of Imam Shafa’i might be too heavy for most people here to contemplate on or understand. |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 1:19 PM
Once again you stoop down to name calling and humiliating other members.
It just shows us your true character. |
|
marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 2:02 PM
quote:
marwan,
You cannot have it both ways. You accuse us of doing kufr by not following clear commands of Allah. And yet you say it is not explicitly said to cover the head. So how is it kufr when we do not support something that is not explicitly shariah? When it is not shariah, but your interpretation, then rejecting it cannot be kufr. Are you saying your interpretation and logical conclusion to cover the head when not explicitly stated by Allah, is Shariah?
Why do you call us Kafir?
I am not having anything both ways.
Though Allah does not explicitly state that the head must be covered in terms of
"COVER YOUR HEAD", it is undeniable that Allah means for it to be covered by the usage of the khimar, just like Allah undeniably means for your rear end or your thighs to be covered by the jilbaab.
Are you going to say that it is a position of sharia that your bottom and thighs must be covered? And so if anyone insists that they must be covered they are being fanatics who are taking themselves too seriously?????!!!!!!!!!
Get real oosman, get some logic and stop playing this game.
Edited by: marwan on Thursday, November 16, 2006 2:03 PM |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 7:50 PM
What I see you doing is adding things to religion that are not there. This is plain and simple bida.
I hope you realize your mistake and seek Allah's forgiveness.
ps. Junaid did not insult you in any way, but you degraded him in your comments. |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 9:00 PM
quote:
And what I said is as much bida as telling you to cover your thighs is bida.
I agree.
Anything added to religion is innovation. But bida can be good or bad. |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 10:44 PM
you just dont get it it do you?
I have been trying to assert there is a shariah - the word of God and Rasool. And there is man's interpretation of it.
The rules of modesty are man's interpretation of God's word. They are not God's word. Please stop trying to say they are God's words. If they are, then bring your verses and clear ayats. Otherwise they are someone's interpretation.
If it is an interpretation, then people are free to follow it if it is good, but reject it if it is no good.
My only problem with you is you keep saying things in the name of God that are not.
Allah has not said cover thighs. But Allah said to be modest. So being modest can mean cover thighs. But to say that Allah orders cover thighs is not true. We should be afraid of Allah and not put our own words in Allah's mouth. Even if they are good words, we still cannot say they are Allah's words if they are not His explicit words.
Please stop confusing your personal interpretation as word of God - it is your word, not word of God.
I hope you can agree on this simple thing.
Whether you are disgusted with me or not, that is your personal issue. I do not reveal my personal feelings about you, and you should try to do the same. |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Thursday, November 16, 2006 - 11:27 PM
| How can you be so arrogant or ignorant as to say something and claim it is from God when it is your own interpretation? |
|
oosman
USA
|
Posted - Friday, November 17, 2006 - 4:58 PM
I agree with your advice to marwan.
As for your statement about gold and silk being haram - it is not in the quran; so we cannot say Allah said it. If it is in a hadith that you think can be traced to the prophet, then it can be called part of shariah. However I am not an expert on hadith, and cannot speak on a matter I have little knowledge of.
I agree with you in the head covering is a good principle - but I am only saying it is not the word of Allah.
I do not think marwan believes in hadith otherwise he would have peppered this board with them long ago. I have little knowledge of hadith so I try to avoid talking about them. I have no way to verify if the prophet did say to cover the head or not, so I only say what I know is in the Quran.
Before thinking that other people do not understand, you just look at yourself also and see if you understand or not? Are you self critical too? |
|
Junaidj
CANADA
|
Posted - Friday, November 17, 2006 - 9:09 PM
In the same way, although Allah hasn't said that covering the head is obligatory, the women of the Holy Prophet's (SAW) time have proved that it is.
Allah actually has never said anything about the beard. However, the men at the Prophet's time wore a beard.
Now there is disagreement on whether beard is part of the Sunnah or not. The same holds for Hijab as well.
Not a single one was seen without a head-cover, and not even unauthentic traditions mention the uncovering of the head.
Same holds for the beard as well. All Companions had it and not a single tradition mentions on shaving the beard.
According to your logic, wearing silk and gold is also not Haraam because, as you say, "Allah has not mentioned it".
Just because something is not explicitly haram, does not mean one should do it. Example: Smoking. The evidence is clear. Smoking kills, yet it is not haraam.
The issue is left to the discretion of the individual.
*****************
Btw let me share some pictures from the movie 'Nativity Story' on the head cover of women in Biblical times.
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0762121/photogallery
Edited by: junaidj on Friday, November 17, 2006 9:11 PM |
|
hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
|
 Posted - Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 3:36 PM
we request all our honored participants to continue the healthy exchange of views and plz keep to the basic manners of interaction 
(quote: i would be the last one to uncover my head...." )
you are right junaid i may hv been a bit premature in announcing that.
however another important point re: headcover which i hv discovered by reading the history of other cultures including the cultures of the book, and which came under discussion whilst speaking to a christian colleague of mine is that covering head has also been a protective act for covering the rest of the body; in a sense that untill the peace of cloth remains on head(which you can imagine like a hook or a hanger) and this peace of cloth continues to the rest of the body, there are fewer chances to uncover the rest of the body. once the cloth comes off the head, there is a high chance (and it actually has happened over the years) that the fabric slips lower and lower; next step being low neck, then low shoulders and so on.
however one has to watch this delicate difference and balance carefully in order to keep things in their right place and not overloading stuff in the name of 'beiing careful' neither underloading in the name of being 'moderate'
we all therefore try to learn and ask the AlHadi 'ahde nassiratal mustaqeem' in every aspect. ameen. |
|
Junaidj
CANADA
|
Posted - Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 5:42 PM
I came across this webiste which depicts the dress code of Muslim women in the Middle Ages. The Hijab certainly was NOT a universal experience. Please see the pictures carefully.
I'll post relevant excerpts.
http://www.sfusd.k12.ca.us/schwww/sch618/Clothing/Islam_Clothing,_Jewelry_Ma.html
Muslim and Middle Eastern Clothing, Jewelry, Make-up
For some Muslims, modest clothing for women is a head covering called a 'hijab', but this was not worn in all medieval Muslim societies.Text
Ibn Battuta was a traveler in the 14th century.
In Mali, West Africa, Ibn Battuta observed ...
"Their women are of surpassing beauty, and are shown more respect than the men. These people are Muslims, punctilious (very exact, never late) in observing the hours of prayer, studying the books of law, and memorizing the Qur'an. Yet their women show no bashfulness before men and do not veil themselves, though they are assiduous (worked hard) in attending prayers.
And in Andalusia (Spain): The queen has her head covered (with a crown), but the female attendants' heads are uncovered.
************************
Conclusions: Throughout the Islamic world of the Middle Ages, there were differences in women's clothing. In many cultures the women wore head covering, but not all. After the spread of Islam from Spain to India and south into Africa, there was no central authority that controlled how people interpreted the Qur'an.Text |
|
marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Saturday, November 18, 2006 - 8:01 PM
so because some women called Muslim in the past dressed incorrectly (like nowadays I might add), that means that Allah has not ordered it?
Great logic there, well done. |
|
Junaidj
CANADA
|
Posted - Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 1:47 AM
http://www.mwlusa.org/publications/positionpapers/hijab.html
The most oft-quoted hadith attributed to the Prophet (pbuh) is as follows:
Aisha said, "Asma, daughter of Abu Bakr (that is, Aisha’s sister), entered upon the Apostle of God (pbuh) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of God turned his attention from her and said, "O Asma, when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her except that she displays parts of her body except this and this," and he pointed to her face and hands. (Sunan Abi Dawud)
This hadith is found only in the hadith collection of Abu Dawud (no. 4095). According to Abu Dawud, it is considered weak because the narrator who transmitted it from Aisha is not known (mursal). Other hadith found elsewhere talk about not wearing see-through clothes or clothing intended for wear by the opposite sex. Also, Aisha reported that when the verse above was revealed about covering the breast (24:31), the women tore their thick outer garments to make veils.
Edited by: junaidj on Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:47 AM |
|
 Reply to Topic 
Printer Friendly |
| Jump To: |
|
|
|