| Author | Topic |
imran776
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Monday, April 25, 2005 - 5:49 PM 
AOA,
In these forums nobody is asked for FATWAS. Everybody is open to give his opinions but unlike the FATWA culture, which has sadly been established in Muslim community, the opinion should be in a very polite manner. Nobody even the biggest scholar is the absolute authority as far as the truth is concerned. Everyone can be mistaken in understanding an issue. One has to go for the realities and the logics.
I would love to understand the Quranic verse (4:43) if you can. Because I am opinion that although I am right but there is always a possibility that I am wrong and I am always open to new facts/realities no matter how hard they be. This might be a time for me to understand new facts or get reality. |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, April 25, 2005 - 8:41 PM
QUOTE: I would love to understand the Quranic verse (4:43)
Thank you. This means you do not want me to leave this forum. First of all tell me, in UK where you live men and women drink more or in Pakistan.
***********
Mahnoor
Please read the comments of the women at the following link:
http://www.studying-islam.org/forum/topic.aspx?topicid=1135
Are they women like you. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 1:24 AM
i am the revert. i have visited many countries. i met one of the social workers who told me…….
women are very calm and quite by nature. most of them are not bothered about their status because they consider them no doubt of high status of every kind. but some women who are deprived due to some social reasons like being beaten badly by their husbands, being divorced repeatedly, or being tortured by different ways etc come out of the homes and represent the whole women community. socially sound women dislike such movements. some women use islam becuz there is some relaxation for them in this religion otherwise they have nothing to do with islam. they do not know about the religious matters which are comparatively better from other religions but not same towards women as men are more privileged. the women should remain calm and quite to achieve the high status to avoid to be the target. however the women in all and those who come out of their homes due to some problems must be helped to solve the problems regargless of the religion and creed………..amin
the women need some sort of lesson to be patient and accept whatever the rligion says otherwise there is looking no change either in the religion or minds of the men. men always consider them super and the religion also gives them this right. if some men are more merciful to the women it is good but they can not say or help in the real sense of the sympathy towards the women. for example the man may be asked, can the man has the right to stop his father to divorce his mother or beat his mother or can the man has the right to stop his brother in law to divorce his sister or beat his sister or can the man has the right to stop his son in law to divorce his daughter or beat his daughter? the answer is certainly no in every case. this makes sense and undersrtand the whole story. my intellct says if the religion had made men more powerful judges than women it means pretty clear that men are more intellectual than women. it is very obvious to know about the intellect. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 2:23 PM
| I would disagree with your illogical deduction. Being powerful in society does not necessarily mean being smarter and being weaker in society does not necessarily mean being intellectually deprived. If what you are saying is true, then the black African's are inteleectually more deprived then the Arabs or white men because the Blacks have been the weaker nation throughout history. But that is not true, in Islam black or white or arab have same status, so they must be intellectually same. Women are weaker in society for other reasons, not because they are stupid. |
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Mikai
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 7:42 PM
Asa wb
I know that scholars views are important as one brother pointed out and so i will show some fatwas from sites i know well.
Here is a question and answer posted to the islamonline.net site. A scholar mainly explains one of the verses in the Holy Qur'an shown below. (Plz note i know this does not cover the whole issue regarding this discusion but i believe it is one good point made, which contributes to supporting some of my views).
Question
It has been shown that women are capable of performing many tasks to the ability of men, or even better. So in these types of situations, why must these women still be considered inferior to men?
Answer
All praise and thanks are due to Allah, and peace and blessings be upon His Messenger.
Dear sister, thanks a lot for your question which reflects your care to have a clear view of the teachings of Islam. Allah commands Muslims to refer to people of knowledge to get themselves well-acquainted with the teachings of Islam as well as all aspects of life.
In Islam, people are not classified according to their gender, wealth, race, or color. All people, men and women, originate from one and the same source; they have one father and one mother; their Lord is One and the same; and they share the same responsibility of obeying Him and abiding by His laws. Thus, the only criterion that distinguishes one person from another is his/her righteousness and dutifulness to Allah.
In his response to the question, Dr. Muzammil Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states:
According to Islam, women are not inferior to men. Allah creates both of them and both of them are equal in the Sight of Allah. If they are equal in the Sight of Allah, then how can they be inferior in the society or in the sight of men? Allah Almighty says in the Qur’an: (O people, We have created you from a male and a female and made you into groups and tribes so that you may know each other. Indeed the noblest of you in the sight of Allah are the most righteous among you. ) (Al-Hujurat 49: 13)
According to Islam, men and women complement each other. They are equal members of the society and they have their duties and responsibilities. There are some differences between the roles of men and women in the society, but these differences do not make one gender superior and the other inferior. The talk of superiority or inferiority is based on some of un-Islamic cultures, but it is certainly not part of Islam.
Some people misinterpret the verse 34 of Surat An-Nisaa’, in which Allah Almighty says: (Men are the managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made some to excel the other )
The aforementioned verse is not about the absolute excellence of all men over all women. It is talking only about the family organization where the husband has the responsibility to take care of his wife and children. It is not saying that every man is a caretaker of every woman.
Secondly, the verse is not about the spiritual, moral or intellectual excellence of husband over his wife. It is talking about his physical strength and capabilities, because of which he must protect his family and must be the provider for his wife and children.
Given the above, it is clear that being male or female has nothing to do with superiority or inferiority. Indeed, history is full of women who set great example of nobility and righteousness. Some of these examples are appreciated and commemorated in the Qur’an itself. We find a Surah named after one of these great women, namely Mary the Virgin, and another Surah called An-Nisaa’ (Women).
Edited by: mikai on Tuesday, April 26, 2005 7:43 PM |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 8:43 PM
salam
I would disagree with your illogical deduction. Being powerful in society does not necessarily mean being smarter and being weaker in society does not necessarily mean being intellectually deprived. If what you are saying is true,………………………………………. then the black African's are inteleectually more deprived then the Arabs or white men because the Blacks have been the weaker nation throughout history. But that is not true, in Islam black or white or arab have same status, so they must be intellectually same. Women are weaker in society for other reasons, not because they are stupid.
Oosman see above on each side of the doted line. There is no realation what I said and you are pointing
For mikai, the link you are giving of the scholar what is his cv
You are saying the following misinterpretation because you donot like it
Some people misinterpret the verse 34 of Surat An-Nisaa’, in which Allah Almighty says: (Men are the managers of the affairs of women because Allah has made some to excel the other )
I disagree with both of you. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, April 26, 2005 - 11:55 PM
Didn't you say that women have less intelect as is proved by their weakness in society?
That is what I understand from your statements. |
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xxbasxx
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, April 27, 2005 - 11:00 PM
'It is better for a woman to put the question and convince individually their father, brother and husband, if married, to cover the concept at the gross root level rather than to waste their time to discuss at this site. I think it is not difficult to handle individually the father, brother and husband. '
wat r u on about
y shud a woman only b constricted to brother/husband watever if they can discuss things here
this site isnt made just for men
everyone has a right to contribute
i think its very narrow minded of u to think otherwise
and reading ur statements..u keep contridicting urself
i dnt get wat ur trying to say at all
if women want to discuss stuff let them do it
salaamz
no offence intended
-arub- |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, April 29, 2005 - 12:00 PM
salam
mikai, you told that in quran are sura al nisa (woman) and maryam. so what about these suras of quran. see below with their numbrs.
2…………… …cow
6………………cattle
16……………..bee
27……………. ant
29……………. spider
72……………..jinn
83……………..deceievers in measuring
101…………….calamity
104…………….slanderers
105………….. ..elephant
109…………….disbelievers
what makes sense the variation from an ant to an elephant. for god sake stop the discussion and donot degrade and make insane yourself by your own.
Al-quran [4.34]- men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others …………..and becauz they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded and those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is high, great.
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others…….after this there is ‘and’ so the fist meaning is finished here whre men are said to be exceled . there are many others. so men do excel. you are wrong and selfish to escape.
of course MEN DO EXCEL as al qunan or God says. nobody will hear you if you change the meanings in this clear way. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, April 29, 2005 - 6:38 PM
| It is interesting to note that the verse does not say 'Allah excelled men over women' but it says 'Allah excelled some of them over some' It is ambiguous as to who the 'some of them over some' is exactly refering to. All though, in light of the context, it would seem it is men over women. But why the ambiguity? |
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Irsalfwalsh
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, April 29, 2005 - 6:57 PM
With the name of Allah’
>>> most of them are not bothered about their status because they consider them no doubt of high status of every kind. socially sound women dislike such movements……
The above is true……
Salam |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, April 29, 2005 - 10:27 PM
QUOTE: y shud a woman only b constricted to brother/husband watever if they can discuss things here.
After your statement I am recalling the Quranic verse (64: 14) without knowing its exact interpretation.
“O you who believe! Surely from among your wives and your children there is an enemy to you; therefore beware of them; and if you pardon and forbear and forgive, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful (64: 14).
Regarding your question I meant to say that if the father, brother and husband (in general) have one ear for hearing and the other for ejecting out, then how the individual can be happy of burning one’s eyes in front of the computer.
I see your opinion, even if you are right, no more than one half provided that you are the adult.
QUOTE: if women want to discuss stuff let them do it.
I agree here. I have been waiting for that day since long when the individuals do not call me repeatedly in this forum. I was calm and quite if you did not address me exclusively.
QUOTE: this site isnt made just for men everyone has a right to contribute.
What do you mean? Is there no other man? No doubt every body has the right to contribute. Have I stopped others? If some people have no courage to hear the opposing views they surely must not join. Do you know I had deleted my all the posts but I had been called again and again to fulfil the deficiency?
QUOTE: i dnt get wat ur trying to say at all.
If so why you are trying to address me? Are you repeatedly asking me to say more?
QUOTE: no offence intended.
One who has no intention does not know about the matter. What do you mean?
I END with the following sayings of God:
1. Allah does not impose upon any soul a duty but to the extent of its ability (2: 286)
2. Allah does not love the utterance of hurtful speech EXCEPT one to whom has been done injustice; and Allah is Hearing, Knowing. If you do good openly or do it in secret or pardon an evil then surely Allah is Pardoning, Powerful. (4:148, 149)
3. We will facilitate for him the easy END (92: 7)
I request every body not to call me again and again directly or indirectly otherwise I will have to reply. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:04 PM
<< you said….. All though, in light of the context, it would seem it is men over women. But why the ambiguity?
what does it mean by the same verse, same context and same command? i disagree on the different meanings of the context and the command otherwise if one man excel to the other man suppose then the excelled one has the right to beat the other.
Recently pointed out quranic verse 64.14 shows that God is taking the wives and children in the same category.
<< you said…….. Women are weaker in society for other reasons, not because they are stupid.
you used the word stupid for women in your subconscious because you are man. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, April 30, 2005 - 8:04 PM
<< you said….. All though, in light of the context, it would seem it is men over women. But why the ambiguity?
what does it mean by the same verse, same context and same command? i disagree on the different meanings of the context and the command otherwise if one man excel to the other man suppose then the excelled one has the right to beat the other.
Recently pointed out quranic verse 64.14 shows that God is taking the wives and children in the same category.
<< you said…….. Women are weaker in society for other reasons, not because they are stupid.
you used the word stupid for women in your subconscious because you are man. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Monday, May 2, 2005 - 3:46 AM
| I am sorry but what ever you are saying makes totally no sense at all. Please be clear. |
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Mikai
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, May 2, 2005 - 5:57 PM
Asa
As much as i do not like insulting anybody whether done intentionally or unintentionally i am amazed that for those brothers who believe in men having higher intellect than women cannot seem to understand how an answer to an opposing view should be addressed.
It's irritating to see that even though you seem to have so much knowledge in Islamic issues you do not know how to present it. I thought my query into how you should answer would be easy to understand especially when another sister (mahnoor) gave a better explanation than i did.
To Bhavittre especially:
If i have ever indicated throughout my posts that my views are correct and others are wrong then i am sorry about that because it was wrong of me. No one taking part in this discussion has any right to say their views are correct and the other brothers and sisters are wrong. You should be very careful when saying:
of course MEN DO EXCEL as al qunan or God says. nobody will hear you if you change the meanings in this clear way.
You act like as if you have the knowledge of Allah Swt!!! There are many different views on this Quranic verse by many intelligent people who make very good points and yet somehow you take the position of knowing the right interpretation and meaning!!! Brother the correct way of saying this is: In my opinion, or i believe, or the scholars i believe in....
The way to respond to me is simply to say "no i don't see what you are saying and so i am afraid i have to disagree with you, or i disagree as from my understanding that is an incorrect interpretation of the verse...etc.
In responding like this regardless of whether you agree or disagree with my views i at least get to respect your views and you as a brother. I say well done in achieving that by saying to me “you are wrong and selfish to escape”.
You can say I might be wrong, fair enough but don’t tell me I’m wrong. I could very well say that to you about your views but I wont, I prefer saying I don’t agree with you.
How am I selfish plz explain?
I feel that all people who oppose to women having the same intellect as men do not understand the depth of the issue. We have to remember that this issue regards women and not men. This issue affects women and not men. This issue questions women’s intellect compared to men not vice versa. This does not affect men so I can understand why I have found during this discussion that some brothers cannot understand what’s wrong with the way they have replied to sisters or even other brothers! Come to think of it not one brother opposing my views has said to the sisters “I can understand where you are coming from, I know how you feel, maybe you are right because I can understand some of your points, yeah I see what you are trying to get at but I still don’t agree, some of those scholars make good points”. Instead I find that those brothers just find it blatantly appalling for a sister to be blessed with the same intellect as men! Is it really that absurd to you? What world am I living in ?!?
There is one good way I can think of to give you a much better understanding and that is to put yourself in a woman’s shoe. Lets say that that the Qur’an and hadiths indicate women having more intellect than men, so brothers how would you like sisters answering your questions?
I found something interesting on the web regarding how one should respond to a sister, which i will post in my next reply. |
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