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Junaidj
CANADA
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 Posted - Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 1:55 AM 
http://www.womeninworldhistory.com/essay-01.html
Historical Perspectives On Islamic Dress
Yet it was only in the second Islamic century that the veil became common, first used among the powerful and rich as a status symbol.
Throughout Islamic history only a part of the urban classes were veiled and secluded. Rural and nomadic women, the majority of the population, were not.
The veil did not appear as a common rule to be followed until around the tenth century.
Edited by: junaidj on Sunday, November 19, 2006 1:56 AM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Sunday, November 19, 2006 - 6:59 PM
>>We're only saying that they should cover their heads. Veiling and secluding women is un-Islamic without doubt. <<
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Here are a couple of questions:
1) Even those women who covered their heads, as you can see from the pictures, not all hair was covered. It was more like an ornament, or for pinning reasons that the headdress was worn.
It was more like a loose 'dupatta'/shawl if anything else, which substantiates the cultural practice of that head cover.
The Biblical dress for women will only substantiate this point.
Had the head cover been mandatory, would there not have been a strict enforcement of covering up all of the head as several Hijabi women do today.
2) Do we have any reports in which the Prophet asked women to cover their head? He has asked them not to wear see through garments, he has instructed men to cover their thighs, he has even commented on the beard as well,
The question is do we find the Prophet asking a woman to cover her head properly or in this way or that way? After all he has corrected other aspects of the dress, both for men and women?
Even the Hadith attributed to Aishah (RA) is weak as it has no 'mursal'.
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Finally on the veil and seclusion, these points are actually brought forth by ulama who interpret the verses on khimar, thawb and jilbab as one recommending veiling and seclusion.
As you can see its a matter of interpretation. No one agrees completely on what the verses are saying, after all its a human endeavour.
In anther context, Maulana Tufail Hashmi of the Federal Shariah Court himself said that any implementation of the Hudood laws should be seen as human interpretation of the Divine law and NOT as the Divine law itself.
The same would hold here. In my opinion the head cover was a cultural practice, in your opinion it is mandated It is important that we use the statement 'In my opinion...'.
Otherwise we become arrogant spokesmen of God.
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Finally, I think that the bulk of the argument rests on the word 'khimar' and its use as an implicit command.
Well you can find other implicit refrences in Koran which are not mandated. Example, polygamy.
People who believe that head cover is merely being alluded to as a cultural garb, also hold the opinion that polygamy is merely being alluded to and the Koran is certainly NOT encouraging the practice.
However this requires appreciation of Classical Arabic grammar, and not many people have a grasp on it.
Btw the Koran is clear on what it wants of its addresses. Example the verses on who a man cannot marry.
The KOran goes in great detail, forbidden to you are your mothers, daughters, aunts, etc etc....
Likewise for inheritance laws the Koran goes in to great detail, 1/3rd for this, 1/8ths for that and so on.
Likewise Koran gives explicit commands, forbidden is the flesh of the swine, blood, carrion...
Then why is it that Koran is not giving explicit commands on the head cover? But just on the covering the chest?
Because it leaves many things to Sunnah of the Prophet. Method of prayer, Nikah between man and woman, etc.
And even in Sunnah, do we find the Prophet's explicit directive to women to cover their heads? Or was it merelt assumed as a cultural practice as the turbans of the men?
Edited by: junaidj on Sunday, November 19, 2006 11:08 PM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Monday, November 20, 2006 - 6:08 PM
Brother Junaid, how come the Holy Prophet (SAW) never stated that the head-cover is not compulsory, if it were a cultural practice as you say?
The Holy Prophet never stated the beard is not compulsory either or on the caps men would wear in that time.
And by the way, if I've ever lied against Allah, then I seek His Grace and forgiveness; but please do not include me in your list of "arrogant spokesmen of God"!
I deeply apologize if you got taht impression.
I certainly was not aiming that at you.
I respect and support your right to believe that Hijab is mandated by God.
Edited by: junaidj on Monday, November 20, 2006 6:08 PM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 4:11 PM
quote:
Well, atleast the Holy Prophet (SAW) did express his disgust when he saw two clean-shaved men. Besides, even though the beard isn't part of the Sharee'ah, I think it's still a sin not to keep it .........
My Sister Nida,
Two points here:
Beard is not part of the Shariah, that much you concede, which is a crucial point. And whteher it is a sin not to keep it is another discussion.
And whether the Prophet expressed disgust at clean shaven men is again attributed to Hadith which may be weak.
Further, I think the Prophet asked men that if they wanted to keep a beard then do it in such and such way, not in such and such way.
However, when it comes to Hijab, it is something to think about that why don't we find similar strong statements from Him?
But anyway, besides our disagreement, I fully support and defend someone's right to wear the head scarf. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 5:46 PM
marwan
quote:
Allah has called such people hypocrites in the Qur'an.
Your understanding of the Quran is poor at best. You are quick to brand and judge others in your ignorance.
quote:
I for one find it irritating when people try to make islam fit with their liberalism.
Islam is a liberal religion.
Quran 2.143: Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you.
Being middle nation means neither too strict, nor too lenient.
You see what happens when on one hand we have people like taliban, islamic courts (of somalia) - people get fed up with religion and start hating it. They are too strict in their interpretation. On the other hand there are too liberal a people and they start deviating from the true path also.
Edited by: oosman on Tuesday, November 21, 2006 5:46 PM |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:53 PM
marwan,
I don't need you to tell me what I am. And Allah knows best what lies in the hearts of men. I do not comment on you because I am ignorant about you, but it seems Allah has given you some mysterious powers to let you judge others. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 1:24 PM
| And your words are evidence of your beliefs. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:06 PM
from studying islam module and Understanding Islam web site
Specific Directives in exceptional circumstances.
In the age of the Prophet Mohammad Pbuh in Madinah when some miscreants started teasing and besmearing the characters of Muslim women, the Almighty in Surah Ahzab bade the wives of the prophet Pbuh, his daughters and other Muslim women to draw their cloaks over them when they go out to places which were insecure. Dressed thus, they would be distinguished from women of lewd character and they would not be teased on the pretext of being outwardly similar to women of low character. It is reported that that when Muslim women in the dark of night or in the dim of dawn would go out to relieve themselves these miscreants would get after them and when they would be called to account they would say that they actually thought that these honourable ladies were in fact slave-women. (Ibn Kathir, Tafsir al-Qur’an al Azim vol 3).
Those who harass believing men and believing women unjustifiably shall bear the guilt of slander and a grievous sin. O’Prophet! Enjoin your wives, your daughters, and the wives of true believers to draw their cloaks over them [when they go out]. This makes it more probable that they may be distinguished [from slave women] and not be harassed. God is ever forgiving and merciful. If the hypocrites and those who have the ailments [of jealousy] in their hearts and the scandal mongers of Madinah do not desist. We will rouse you against them, and their days in that city will be numbered. Cursed be they; wherever found, they would be seized and put to painful death. (33:58-61).
It is evident from the words and their context in which they are used that the directive mentioned in the preceding verses was not of permanent nature. Owing to similar reasons, the Prophet Pbuh also forbade Muslim women from travelling alone on long journeys and from walking on pathways within a crowd of men.
The believing women were directed to take their outer garments and cover themselves to help them be identified as free believing women. This aided them in avoiding any harassment by some of the hypocrites who were out to scandalize the believing women in general and the household of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in particular. Since the edict was meant for the believing women who were directly facing the related situation, there would have been no reason for them to ignore the directive. Therefore, they showed a response expected from pure believing women. The directive contained in the referred verse of Surah Ahzab is not a general commandment of the Shariah. It only pertains to a specific situation and was introduced to cope with a problem at hand |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, November 22, 2006 - 8:12 PM
From the Understanding Islam web site
Sahih Al-Bukhari Volume 6, Book 60, Hadith # 282
Narrated Safiya bint Shaiba (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) used to say: "When (the Verse): "They should draw their veils over their necks and bosoms," was revealed, (the ladies) cut their waist sheets at the edges and covered their faces with the cut pieces.
Abu Dawood Book 14, Hadith # 2482
Narrated Thabit ibn Qays (Radhiallaahu Ánhu): A woman called Umm Khallad came to the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) while she was veiled. She was searching for her son who had been killed (in the battle) Some of the Companions of the Prophet (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said to her: You have come here asking for your son while veiling your face? She said: If I am afflicted with the loss of my son, I shall not suffer the loss of my modesty. Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) said: You will get the reward of two martyrs for your son. She asked: Why is that so, oh Prophet of Allah? He replied: Because the people of the Book have killed him.
Abu Dawood Book 32, Hadith # 4091
Narrated Aisha, Ummul Mu'minin (Radhiallaahu Ánha) "May Allah have mercy on the early immigrant women. When the verse "That they should draw their veils over their bosoms" was revealed, they tore their thick outer garments and made veils from them. Ibn Hajar Al-Asqalanee, who is known as Ameer Al-Mu'mineen in the field of Hadith, said that the phrase, "covered themselves", in the above Hadith means that they "covered their faces". [Fath Al-Bari].
According to Imam Ahmed Ibn Hanbal, Iman Shaf'ee, Imam Malik, covering the face is wajab. Definition of wajab is something that is not clear in the Qur'an, as being fard but is clear in the hadith of prophet Muhammad (sallahu alahi wasalam). Imam Abu hanifa said that if it's not the era of fitna then women could leave their face open.
This is from the book "Hijab" written by Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin This is also in the book "Hijab" by Abdul Aziz Adweesh.
"The Ullima who are of the opinion that it is permissible to look at the face and hands of a strange woman (who is not mahrrum) say so mainly for the following reasons:
The hadith of Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) when Asmaa (Radhiallaahu Ánha) the daughter of Abu Bakr came to the Rasulullah (Sallallaahu Álayhi Wasallam) while wearing thin clothing. He approached her and said: 'O Asmaa! When a girl reaches the menstrual age, it is not proper that anything should remain exposed except this and this. He pointed to the face and hands. But this hadith is WEAK because of 2 main weaknesses.
There is no link between Aisha (Radhiallaahu Ánha) and Khalid bin Dareek, who narrated the hadith from her. And in every chain of narrators Khalid bin Dareek is mentioned.
In the chain of narrators Sa'eed bin Basheer appears, who is known by most of the Muhaditheen as being a weak narrator. This has been mentioned by Imaam Ahmad bin Hanbal (Rahimahullah), An-Nasai (Rahimahullah), Ibn Madeeni (Rahimahullah) and Ibn Ma'een (Rahimahullah). This is also why Imaam Bukhari (Rahimahullah) and Muslim (Rahimahullah) did not except this hadith to be in their books.
(From Shaikh Ibn Uthaimin in the book "Hijaab" pages # 17 and 18.)
We also have to see that the Muhadith Abu Dawood when he quoted this hadith put with it that it is Musal (with a broken chain that does not lead up to the Sahaba).
(From The Book "Hijaab wa Safur" under tha fatwaa of Shaikh AbulAziz Bin Bazz on Page #61. Also stated as being weak by Shaikh Nasirudden Al-Albaani in his Daeef Sunan Abu Dawud in Kitab-ul-Libas under hadeeth number 4092 (which is the original hadeeth number.) It has also been mentioned in the magazine called "Al Hijrah" that Ullima agree this hadith is weak.)
An other thing that shows the weakness of this hadith is that after the ayah for hijab (Surah Al-Ahzaab - Verse #59) was revealed then the women of Sahaba wore a complete veil and covered the faces and hands. This includes Asmaa (Radhiallaahu Ánha) the daughter of Abu Bakr, who is supposed to have narrated this hadith. Asmaa (Radhiallaahu Ánha) covered herself completely including the face, this has been narrated in authentic hadith in Imaam maliks "MUWATTA Book 20 Hadith # 20.5.16." "
. Imam Abu Hanifa in his referred opinion has identified the exact nature of the directive and the circumstances in which it is applicable |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 12:34 PM
good news for everyone 
our 'disclaimer' is shortly being introduced re: the code of conduct on forums.
plz continue the healthy exchange of views with the intention of learning and practice, to please god, our Lord.
peace |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Friday, January 12, 2007 - 11:51 AM
we must raise a loud voice against this act of adding things to the Islamic belief as sacred what Allah and His Messenger sws hv not announced so. because when we try and announce acts sacred in a religion-without a sound base, just because it appeals to our nature and personality, no matter how trivial it looks, it has far reaching effects causing severe harm to the message of that religion; leading people away, even from what good that religion had to offer
for an e.g. plz check
http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=1083 |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, January 15, 2007 - 1:20 PM
aray nida aik cheez mein phasi raho gee tu kuch naheen seekh sako gee(if you get stuck you won't be able to learn more) no we aren't talking about head cover here my deary now you'll hv to re read this thread and the link i hv given for the article'announcing acts as sacred' (i really wish that if we spend reading, of even half the time we spend writing, many things will be clear.)
also plz continue your your effort for the healthy exchange of views as studying islam aims at providing an intellectual space for such. i hv noticed you are trying to bring the dress code issue in every thread. i sincerely suggest you read the relevant topic from our sister site understanding islam/ search topic to understand the detailed stance and also discuss in our 'islamic customs & etiquettes' course forums.
also do read our basic courses 'religion of islam', and 'revelation of Qura'n'
best |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Monday, January 15, 2007 - 8:16 PM
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, October 14, 2023 - 9:42 PM
السلام عليكم
I left this forum many years ago, and had requested the admins/managers to delete all my posts.
Since they have conveniently ignored my request, I advise the readers to ignore my posts, and I openly retract from anything I said that was against the Qur'aan, Sunnah or way of the salaf.
I also free myself from this website, for its 'aqeedah and manhaj is not what the salaf were upon.
Learn true Islaam instead of wasting your time listening to people's opinions on forums.
www.tawhidfirst.com (English)
www.imamdarimi.com (Urdu)
(Posted by member, Nida_e_Khair) |
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