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Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 9:05 AM

Islam gave unprecedented respect to Muslim women and In fact in many ways Women are given higher degree of reverence as compared to men (e.g. Mothers as compared to Fathers), but we need to accept here that in a Family-life yet men are given sovereignty over their Women (“The Men are rulers over their women…. 34:4 Annisa). And though under specific evolving circumstances, yet men are given a right to BEAT his wife whereupon strictly avoiding any severe blow that could cause internal corporal injury.

The Reason-of-revelation (Shaan-e-Nuzool) of the Verse 34:4 also is helpful in clarifying the subject further.

"Once a companion Saad Bin Rabia’ (may Allah be pleased with him) slapped his wife Habibah (may Allah be pleased with her) and the matter was reported to Rasoolullah’s (peace be upon him). Rasoolullah (peace be upon him) was about to give his verdict in favour of Wife, but, prior to that, Gabriel (peace be upon him) appeared and revealed this Verse “The Men are rulers over their women…..”, after this revelation Rasoolullah’s (peace be upon him) uttered that I wished something else and Allah (the exalted) ordered something else (Ibn-kathir)."

Further, please read 44:38 (Suad): Here One of Allah’s apostle Ayub (peace be upon him) was ordered by Allah (the exalted) to beat his wife, tenderly though.

Now a quote from Mr. Ghamdi, he says that the words used in Quran meant an interpretation that was classical in nature and was widely understandable for its famous (Ma'roof) meaning in the then Arab. And from that day onwards until today, Arabs use the word "DARAB" for beating and not for revoking any given right to somebody, as Dr. Hina Khan (the moderator) mentions in her reply to the subject.

Well, being sympathetic to Dr. Khan's meaning of DARAB (holding pocket money, limiting makeup…. etc.), I classify her derived meaning related to the stage where a Man is advised to banish (Wahjur) his wife from his bed, and strictly not to the stage where a man is advised to BEAT his wife.

Besides, I'm not an expert of Arabic Grammar (Nahav) but just would like to notify that Horses and Camels are nouns but DARAB/Beat is a verb/action word. So, Dr. Khan is not right in drawing this analogy.

What can be the right answer to the subject is that the Quranic order of beating a wife cannot be considered here as super imposing over the family laws of the State. And if State debars men for beating their Wives under any circumstances then one must obey its State’s regulations (Wa Allah A’lam, I’m not an expert in Islamic Jurisprudence-Fiqh, but just gave my opinion.

Kashan Iqbal
Dubai, UAE

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Thursday, May 31, 2007 - 9:09 AM

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Friday, June 1, 2007 - 8:25 AM

Welcome to the SI forums Kashan, assalamu alaykum

and keep us posted. Studying Islam encourages difference of opinion in order to learn and understand better.

(plz note;what i mentioned re: daraba is from the understanding i have so far about this issue and from various faith and interfaith meetings we have come across whilst trying to resolve some of the problems relating to this matter in this country-not an opinion particularly from javed ghamidi sb-
secondly , the change of meaning has not been the idea but to take the message from Qur'an for the practical matters faced in this issue today-we all know and strongly believe that Qur'an does not lag behind in such guidance-and never will-what has been mentioned does not at all change the relevant meanings; nor is the intention to do so.)

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Friday, June 1, 2007 - 12:55 PM

W. Salam Sister Khan(The Moderator), Thanks for the welcome note.

I do not see a direct answer from u about my written passage that u agree or disagree. My point was, and is, that in 4:34 meaning of Daraba is nothing but to beat tenderly. Pls. make me understand on the basis of authentic evidences if i wrote something wrong.

Besides, I'm a very keen follower of "SI", "Al-Mawrid", Danish Sera etc websites and, at the moment, trying, with the available resources and time, to read Mr. Ghamidi.

Last thing, I also wanted to advise you that being a moderator your posted messgaes must not discourage ppl like "Dalmir" as we ought to make a broader connection.

2ndly,4:34 discusses an issue that is not in much favor of today's women so urself, being a woman (as per my understanding) and the moderator, must stay very cautious in moderating such topics in order not to project any personal or natural inclination about the matter, which is, to an extent, obvious from ur posted answers so far. But, I must admit that i have read u on quite a number of occassions but never felt need to complain.

Ma'salam we Rehmah

Kashan IQbal
kashaniqbal@hotmail.com

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Saturday, June 2, 2007 - 7:53 AM

Quote from my own answer, "Besides, I'm a very keen follower of "SI", "Al-Mawrid", Danish Sera etc websites ..." posted on June 01, 2007.

I would like to rephrase the above as, I'm a keen follower/Reader of happenings at SI, Al-Mawrid and Danish Sera Websites..."
Kindly read as rephrased.
Thanks
Kashan
Dubai

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Saturday, June 2, 2007 - 7:53 AM

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Saturday, June 2, 2007 - 8:16 PM

(aray K aap say kis ney kaha i'm/or all moderators at SI are religious scholars...

if you need a scholarly reply plz write to query@studying-islam.org )

'daraba' could be interpreted as actually 'gently beating' in some areas of the world even today-where it is a norm to do so-however one is not bound by this interpretation in other parts of the world where it demands punishment if one is accused of beating his wife or child. this is the beauty of islam in all times and ages as well as various cultures.

however I have given my opinion based on solid evidence and understanding from Qur'an and the teachings of the prophet sws alongwith the examples of some other verses where you do not take the literal meaning for an order and use the evidence from the time 'n environment when the verse was revealed , other relevant verses as well as the practices carried fwd from the prophets (pbu them)-as learnt from the basic rules of language(interpretation of Qur'an, Language of Qur'an/zuban kay asool from javed sb's 'meezan' you must be aware of- as you mentioned your affiliation with almawrid's studies) from my renowned and distant teachers- javed G sb and shehzad saleem sb(patron 'n CEO SI respectively)- i am therefore satisfied with my opinion.

another example- we know about the rules of parda/hijab-and we understand on similar basis that even though Qur'an has used certain words and language like 'jilba'b' to describe that, yet we are not tied up in various parts of the world by one particular arab style of jilbab wore those days-but wherever we live we have to find a modest dress which covers us as per the teachings of modesty given by Islam.

however not necessarily everyone/ yourself feel similarly satisfied with the explanation given above; therefore if you still have objections and need a scholarly reply, you may write to query@studying-islam.org. plz note that moderators at SI are not the scholars of SI. but when needed they can direct you how to coordinate with the scholars;as mentioned above.

hope this helps

waseem

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Sunday, June 3, 2007 - 1:48 PM

From the understanding Islam web site

Maintaining a balance between responsibility and authority is an important issue in modern Organizational Theory. There can be a difference of opinion regarding the extent of power (authority) delegated for performing a particular duty (responsibility); but obviously, if someone is assigned a duty he must be given a reasonable degree of authority that is necessary to perform his tasks. For example, if we assign the Police Department the task of prevention of crime in a society, we will have to give the necessary degree of authority to the personnel of that department. In case we refuse to do so then the department cannot be held responsible for any crime committed in the society. As stated earlier, there can be a difference of opinion regarding the extent of the authority given to perform a particular duty but the basic principle that every responsibility must entail adequate authority cannot be questioned.

Keeping the above explanation in mind, consider the concept of the "society". Society has generally been defined as the web of relationships and interactions among human beings. A closer look at society shows that its basic and primary unit is the family; actually, society, as a whole, is nothing more than the various family groups that comprise it. Therefore, in building a stable society, it is of utmost importance that this basic and primary unit should be given all the stability that it can be given. It is only for this reason that most, if not all the teachings of Islam regarding the social set up are directed towards achieving this particular end. Obviously, one of the most important requirements for providing stability to the institution of family is to build it up on a sound basis and to define its authority/responsibility hierarchy. If you look at the referred verse closely, you shall see that it is actually giving this definition. The verse reads as follows:

"Men [as husbands] are responsible for their women because God has made the one superior to the other [in different spheres] and because they spend of their wealth. Therefore, righteous women are obedient [to their husbands] and guard their secrets as God has also guarded secrets. As for those from whom you fear refusal of obedience, admonish them and [if this does not effect their behavior then] leave them alone on their beds and [if even this does not effect their behavior then] beat them." (Al-Nisaa 4: 34)

Marriage between two individuals is the beginning of the formation of a family and for a family to be properly constituted and organized, which in turn would result in a stable society, the referred verse has given it a responsibility/authority structure. A typical family normally consists of a man, a woman and their children. An important point to note in this verse is that rather than defining the whole responsibility/authority structure, the verse has restricted its definition to the responsibility/authority relationship between a man and his wife. The reason for restricting this definition only to a man and his wife, and not mentioning the position of children, is also quite obvious. It is only here that man, in general, has and can commit a mistake. Obviously, no one will object when we say that parents - father and mother - are jointly and severally responsible for the proper upbringing and well being of their children. However, when it comes to man and wife, we may, by "rashly" applying the principle of equality, make a mistake. Thus, it is only in the case of the husband-wife relationship that the Qur'an has provided its guidance.

According to the referred verse, it is actually the men (as husbands) who are ultimately responsible for providing their women with an atmosphere, which is conducive for their well being (in this world as well as in the hereafter) and, as a result, for the whole family. Two reasons have been given for delegating the position of the head of the family unit to men. Firstly, because it is they who have been made responsible for earning the livelihood for all the family members; and secondly, because, in comparison to women, they are more suited physically and emotionally to be given this responsibility, just as women are more suited for a number of other responsibilities.

After declaring the responsibility of the man as the head of the family, for the smooth functioning of the household, women are advised and persuaded to recognize the heavy responsibility placed on their husband's shoulders and to remain obedient to them. It is in this context that the husbands, for the purpose of fulfilling the responsibility placed on their shoulders, are advised to admonish their wives if they feel that their wives refuse to be obedient to them and thereby hinder them in fulfilling the responsibility that has been placed on them. In case their admonition turns out to be in vain, they should then avoid conjugal relations with them to make them realize the gravity of their disobedient attitude. In case even this step fails to improve the wives' behavior, the husbands are then advised to beat them lightly.

We may determine in the light of the referred verse of the Qur'an that unless the matter is of the nature of "Nushooz" or refusal to accept the position of the other and thus may ultimately result in the breaking of the household, the man should not resort to beating. Obviously, in the stages of admonition and restrain from conjugal relations, the matter shall be brought under extensive discussion and views shall be exchanged thoroughly. Seen in this perspective, the referred verse has actually provided a safeguard for women against domestic abuse and beating. Men, in other words, have been restrained from resorting to any kind of physical punishment, unless it is determined that the matter is one of "Nushooz". They are not allowed to take any such action on the basis of any trivial difference of opinion.

As should be obvious from the above explanation the stated authority is given to a man only to fulfill the responsibility of maintaining a peaceful and smooth running of the family. If women are allowed to show disrespect towards the responsibility assigned to the man, it is quite likely that the same attitude is transferred to the other members of the family and an environment of complete anarchy is allowed to take charge. It must also be kept in mind that such situation of anarchy, if left unchecked for some time, in the basic unit of the society, i.e. the family, can find its way to the very roots of the whole society and then destabilize its whole structure. Islam does not want such a situation to materialize and it is only to prevent it that it has given the referred commandment.

waseem

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Sunday, June 3, 2007 - 1:50 PM

Conclusion of the above discussion on Understanding Islam web site

The preceding discussion on "Beating Women (Wives)" has been kept unaltered, except for a few minor alterations of the nature of editing. However, according to my revised opinion regarding the related verses of the Qur'an, it now seems to me that the basic stress in these verses of the Qur'an is to hinder a person from using force in correcting a domestic problem situation. The Qur'an, it should be observed, has not merely stated that in case a wife is persistent in disrupting the peace and tranquility of a household, her husband should beat her to bring her in line; on the contrary, the Qur'an has actually hindered the man from using force for correcting such a situation by directing him to resort to admonition. Then again, if continual and sincere admonitions of the man seem to be falling on deaf ears, even then the man cannot use force for correcting the situation. The Qur'an has once again hindered the person from using force, by directing him to show his disapproval of the wife's behavior by resorting to restraint in his conjugal relations with his wife. This restraint, once again, is in the hope to make the wife realize her mistakes.

If we keep the occurrences of domestic abuse and violence - even in the modern "civilized world" - in perspective, we shall observe that it is not whether a person enjoys a legal right to beat his wife or not, which plays any role in such domestic violence. On the contrary, such physical violence is a result, generally, of an emotional outbreak and extreme anger. Man, due to the greater physical strength that he, generally, has as compared to a woman, has a higher tendency of resorting to physical violence in a state of extreme anger and an emotional outbreak. It is, in fact, in such a state of mind that man is most likely to physically harm a woman or to seriously injure her by resorting to force. The Qur'an, it should be observed, has disallowed the man from taking to force in such a state of mind. It has directed the man that even under enraging circumstances, the man should admonish the wife and advise her to correct her behavior. Thus, if seen in the correct perspective, the Qur'an has, in fact, hindered the man from resorting to physical force at the time when he is most likely to do so. In other words, the stated directive of the Qur'an is actually a directive for self-control and self-restraint for the man. Moreover, the act of admonition, which is recommended by the Qur'an at this stage, provides an opportunity for the exchange of views between the two individuals. This opportunity enhances any chance of correction of the situation through dialogue. However, if this dialogue does not improve the situation, even then the man is disallowed from resorting to any physical force. Even now, the Qur'an wants the man to practice self-restraint and to avoid all physical violence. On the contrary, it has directed the man to sever his conjugal relations with the woman, to show his disapproval of the situation.

Thus, seen in the aforementioned perspective, the stated directive of the Qur'an is, in fact, to deter a person from resorting to any physical force in a state of mind, when he is most likely to take a rash action.

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Monday, June 4, 2007 - 5:00 AM

(thx W)

this matter is also touched in our recent,jun, issue of monthly renaissance-along with many other misunderstandings about various imp matters and islamic stance; including women's, family, political and economic issues as well as beliefs and sources of islam

3. A Husband has an Absolute Right to beat his Wife?

The right given by the Qur’an to the husbands to physically punish their wives in certain circumstances is a thorny issue in the modern mind. The issue needs to be understood in its true perspective. The Qur’an says:

وَاللَّاتِي تَخَافُونَ نُشُوزَهُنَّ فَعِظُوهُنَّ وَاهْجُرُوهُنَّ فِي الْمَضَاجِعِ وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ فَإِنْ أَطَعْنَكُمْ فَلَا تَبْغُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ سَبِيلًا إِنَّ اللَّهَ كَانَ عَلِيًّا كَبِيرًا (34:4)

And as for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them [first] and [next] refuse to share their beds and [even then if they do not listen] punish them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Indeed, Allah is Exalted and Mighty. (4:34)

The following implications of this verse need to be understood in their proper perspective:

a. Firstly, this measure can only be resorted to when a wife starts to challenge the authority of the husband and threatens to disrupt the family set-up. It is in fact a last resort to protect the institution of family from breaking up. It must not be resorted to in anything less in severity than a rebellious attitude from the wife. This rebellious attitude is termed as نُشُوز (nushuz) by the Qur’an. It has not used the word “disobedience”. Any difference of opinion or altercation must not be resolved by this procedure. Disagreements and disputes must be settled mutually. It is only when the wife stands up against the authority of her husband that this procedure be employed.

b. Before resorting to physical chastisement, the two previous stages mentioned by the Qur’an (4:34) must elapse. The husband should first of all admonish his wife and convince her to give up her defiant behavior. He should exercise all the patience he can muster to urge and beseech her to change her stance. If after repeated pleas and continuous admonition over a considerable span of time, the wife continues to persist in her rebellious attitude, he has the authority to go on to the second stage by avoiding marital contact with her. This detachment, it is clear, is a form of reproof, and a very strong appeal to the wife to correct herself. Again, this attitude should continue for a substantial period of time so that the point is driven home. It is highly unlikely that most wives would persist in their arrogance after these two initial stages. In all probability, patience, forbearance, and restraint would have conquered their hearts. However, even after this stage, if a wife refuses to accept the authority of her husband, the husband has the right to finally resort to gentle physical affliction.

c. If the husband is left with no alternative but to physically punish his wife, he must be very careful in this regard and must not wound or injure her. He should remember that this physical chastisement is similar to the one a mother gives to a rebellious son or the one a teacher gives to an unruly student. He must be aware that in case he misuses this authority in any way, he would be held responsible before the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. In this world also, his wife has the right to report his behavior to the authorities who can punish him for any misconduct in this regard.

d. It finally needs to be considered that all rights must be exercised with prudence keeping in view the circumstances. Exercising one’s right is never obligatory. There can be circumstances in which a person chooses not to exercise this right.

for further topics re:misunderstandings see:
http://renaissance.com.pk/FamilyIssuJu07.htm

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Tuesday, June 5, 2007 - 6:15 AM

Quote from the Moderator," aray K aap say kis ney kaha i'm/or all moderators at SI are religious scholars..."

This case I have no complaints but am surely a bit uncomfortable with the usage of media by the novices. Instead, I'd rather suggest a religious authority to represent a Moderator. To me, and to Oxford Dictionary as well, the word Moderator means a "Religious Leader".

Ma'salam

Kashan
Dubai

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Thursday, June 7, 2007 - 6:31 AM

nopes

you'll find a 'moderator' on most religious and non-religious forums on net and intranets; workplaces,educational or social--(the one on our hosp.trust intanet is very rough 'n tough though-strikes straight away and displays himself as 'Terminator' with the logo--'i'll be back

' )
btw if you wish these forums to be moderated by the scholars of the site, then really yourself and us all will have to find/sponsor a few more of them-'coz believe me-this handful is a rare species--world-wide

...
the ones on this site are severely tied up completing various educational and research projects-still available via the query services 'n on some forums-mostly course forums-to help us in our issues-may God bless their time 'n efforts. amen.

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Thursday, June 7, 2007 - 11:32 AM

I admire ur stamina for not getting annoyed by my bit offensive messages. At least u passed this test. I agree with u on the moderator issue only if u agree to change the designation from Moderator to Semi-moderator.

Now about this debate, in my very first and second message i insisted that in 4:34 word Darab means Beating tenderly and that is also obvious from ur referral from monthly Renaissance. So would like to accept this reality now? I am fully agreed that this act is a last resort and that i did mention too in my message as well.
Prayers
Kashan

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Monday, June 11, 2007 - 5:02 AM

thnx K. keep participating in our forums. we appreciate your interest in education and academics.

re: mod/semi-mod: again getting stuck in literal meaning

literal meaning of moderator, literal meaning of daraba-this is a common problem with us today and therefore studying islam and sister websites endeavour to clarify and educate on this.

as for the renaissance ref for this-javed sb and shehzad sb are my respected teachers and i have learnt some of the details about the Qur'anic language from their teachings; however they never taught us to close our minds -if i live in UK i shall use my mind and see that using daraba here can simply mean 'domestic violence' and we must apply it according top the situation -this is the beauty of Qur'an and islam-the most practical way of life everywhere in the world.

Kashan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES

Posted - Monday, June 11, 2007 - 8:23 AM

Salam alekum, Respectable Dr. Khan: I very humbly but firmly state that the rule u stick to, a non-literal or metaphorical interpretation of Quran as per the circumstances or the situation that prevails, is not correct and does not glow always.

I dare asking u this question that how would u interpret the Quranic-verse in which Muslim men are allowed to have four wives at a time, certainly through this order Quran aims some virtuous social gains, yet if one wants having four wives just aiming satisfaction to his own sexual desires and offering no social virtues, he does not commit a sin as per the Islamic jurisprudence (pls. check with a Scholar as well).

Now, Western law and society does not approve polygamy, yet West has soften its rules for its Muslim citizens as to offer them liberty to practice their religion. I’m sure in U.K. Muslim men are very much allowed to have four Wives.

Now the Question is not that we should interpret every Verse of Quran as per the situation that prevails or territory that changes, rather we need first to quantify the contents of concerned Verse if that offers a room for its metaphorical interpretation or it just means a literal one. Secondly, in latter case (literal inter.) we need to acquaint the local Non-Muslim regime about that particular case (e.g. Beating Wives, or four marriages etc.) that this part of our religion does not enjoy flexibility and they (West) must adapt their Rulebooks to live up to their commitment of providing liberty to the minorities for practicing their religion (hint; as they allow four wives).

Referring to the German Adjudicator’s verdict: I have not read that ruling in full, but what I understood is that she has ruled in favor of husband thereby not punishing him for his applied chastisement to his wife. If this is the case, I would approve her ruling, thereby condemning the act of husband in a way that he should have respected the norms of the society and era he lives in, and must not have resorted to physical persecution.

Dr. Khan, finally I must pledge that I would remain attached to the discussion insha Allah, and assure that no ego of mine would supersede my will to accepting the truth, but only if either I reach the truth or if that reaches me. After all, that is what we all meant to strive for.

Conclusion: We ought to quantify if a particular Verse of Quran offers room for its metaphorical interpretation or otherwise. The Word Daraba in 4:34 means to beat gently, and that enjoys no room for any metaphorical interpretation.

Best regards,

Kashan
Dubai

hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM

Posted - Wednesday, June 13, 2007 - 6:03 AM

thx K

but i wish i had time to beat around the bush

hv given my stance in detail. however like i said before if you are not satisfied plz feel free to write to our Q service. however you are welcome to keep sharing your views with the forum mates as well.

best,
wassala'm

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