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Junaidj
CANADA
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 Posted - Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 4:42 AM 
The Koran gives a direct and explicit statement on beating wives and according to the Islahi/Ghamidi school it is there to curb the wife beating practice by mentioning it as a last resort.
The curbing of wife beating is not like the ban on drinking and gambling also well entrenched practices of the Arabian society, or even like the gradual removal of institutions like slavery.
To understand this beating scholars of the past advanced theories. Nushuz and beating with miswak, or like spanking a child. Khaled Abou Fadel calls this 'kinky'.
The following appeared in the latest Renaissance.
http://www.renaissance.com.pk/FamilyIssuJu07.htm
He should remember that this physical chastisement is similar to the one a mother gives to a rebellious son or the one a teacher gives to an unruly student. He must be aware that in case he misuses this authority in any way, he would be held responsible before the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. In this world also, his wife has the right to report his behavior to the authorities who can punish him for any misconduct in this regard.
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I have always found this explanation, well never mind.
1) Wife is not a child/ward.
2) Who are "the authorities", in most cases parents, mother in laws, and frankly they are useless in many cases. (I just saw the movie Provoked).
If one merely relegates justice to God, then we wash hands off our responsibility.
For me I don't understand this verse. And as such I'll put a moratorium on this part. Just as we don't understand material on God's attributes, throne etc and for which a huge span of time was employed by Asharites and Mutazilah.
I like what Ali Eteraz writes on this issue:
http://eteraz.org/tag/quranproject
By reading the commentary in the Asad Quran, the reasonable Muslim will become convinced that beating is not a good idea. Meanwhile, The Saudi Noble Quran, which has no commentary, leaves the average reader with the impression that beating is OK. Here is the commentary at the bottom of the page from the Asad Quran:
Fn.4 It is evident from many authentic Traditions that the Prophet himself intensely detested the idea of beating one's wife, and said on more than one occasion, "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening?" (Bukhari and Muslim). According to another Tradition, he forbade the beating of any woman with the words, "Never beat God's handmaidens" (Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i, Ibn Majah, Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Ibn Hibban and Hakim, on the authority of Iyas ibn 'Abd Allah; Ibn Hibban, on the authority of 'Abd Allah ibn 'Abbas; and Bayhaqi, on the authority of Umm Kulthum). When the above Qur'an-verse authorizing the beating of a refractory wife was revealed, the Prophet is reported to have said: "I wanted one thing, but God has willed another thing - and what God has willed must be best" (see Manar V, 74). With all this, he stipulated in his sermon on the occasion of the Farewell Pilgrimage, shortly before his death, that beating should be resorted to only if the wife "has become guilty, in an obvious manner, of immoral conduct", and that it should be done "in such a way as not to cause pain (ghayr mubarrih)"; authentic Traditions to this effect are found in Muslim, Tirmidhi, Abu Da'ud, Nasa'i and Ibn Majah. On the basis of these Traditions, all the authorities stress that this "beating", if resorted to at all, should be more or less symbolic - "with a toothbrush, or some such thing" (Tabari, quoting the views of scholars of the earliest times), or even "with a folded handkerchief" (Razi); and some of the greatest Muslim scholars ( e.g., Ash-Shafi'i) are of the opinion that it is just BARELY permissible, and should preferably be avoided: and they justify this opinion by the Prophet's personal feelings with regard to this problem.
The average Muslim believes in two sources of Islam, the Quran, and the Sunnah, the practice of Muhammad. Both are of equivalent weight in Islam because the Quran asks us to affirm the Sunnah. The Asad Quran, in the first sentence of its commentary, makes it very clear that beating a woman is "detested" by the Sunnah. Most Muslims are very unlikely to do anything that would offend the Prophet's sensibilities. The Asad Quran speaks up. The Noble Quran stays silent.
Finally, Asad's commentary quotes the Prophet's sermon where the Prophet states that beating should be allowed only when a woman has become guilty in an obvious manner. Jurists have historically taken this to mean that only an Islamic court of law can determine cases of adultery. Thus, Asad's Quran also points out the role of the state, while The Noble Quran makes no mention of this fact.
* There is a recent Quranic translation, by Laleh Bakhtiar, in which the Arabic verb translated as "beat" by Asad and others, is translated as "to go away." However, Ms. Bakhtiar's translation is not even out yet. Furthermore, being a "feminist" Quran, it is not likely that many conservative institutions, which is what we are targetting, would embrace it. Personally, I do find Bakhtiar's translation of the term compelling. Until this translation comes out and becomes more accepted, please, abide by the Prophet's Sunnah. Also, people should realize that a person who already thinks that beating a wife is against the Prophet Muhammad's Sunnah, is more likely to accept Bakhtiar's argument that the word does not mean beating at all.
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BOTTOM LINE:
Asif Iftikhar critiqued me strongly on one of my articles as follows:
I don’t know what is so funny about a person who wears a beard and a certain length too, understanding it to be the requirement of religion. To many, it is more than shari‘ah. It is a symbol of their love for the Prophet (sws).
The point I am making here is that just as men will go the distance and keep beards for love of their Prophet no matter what the world thinks of them, I think the same standard should apply in the case of wife beating, for love of the Prophet, they should not resort to beating no matter what.
We really should stop providing justifications like 'just like beating a child'.
Edited by: junaidj on Thursday, June 14, 2007 4:46 AM |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, June 14, 2007 - 5:27 AM
To the Moderator:
Excerpt from Mothly Journal of Renaissance "However, even after this stage, if a wife refuses to accept the authority of her husband, the husband has the right to finally resort to gentle physical affliction".
The Renaissance is very much official voice of SI, Al-Mawrid and all in connection, do we still need to contact Query Service??
Ma'salam
Kashan
Dubai |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Friday, June 15, 2007 - 11:51 AM
thnx J 'n K
(J, r u still there or moved?)
K; re: ref from renaissance.never ignore the golden rule of 'text and context' even when reading the revelations 
2ndly-no matter what you are reading; always keep the mind open -as this is what God, our dear Lord wants us to do vide infra
'afala ta'qeloon'
'afala tatadabbarun'
'afala tafakkarun'
'afala tubseroon'
'afala tasmeoon'
and so on
Qur'an is the one revelation which is filled the most with the invitation to use one's mind ;
targeting on aql e saleem, fikr e saleemand finally qalb e saleem  |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 7:13 AM
Ok lemme rephrase, would u approve the act of gently Beating the wife ((Darab) if the Text and the Context falls exactly same as described in Quran for one single individual? OR u'll quickly get to the opinion that the Text and the context of this verse can never exist again.
Pls. answer in Yes OR No, then we move on,
Ma'salam
Kashan
Dubai |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, June 17, 2007 - 11:40 AM
In my limited knowledge and humble opinion the translation of 4:34 does state light beating.
My limited understanding is that Qur'an has given us the guidelines, bounderies and limits. It is encompassing lifestyle from 1400 years ago to date and till the end of this world. Allah has also given us intellect and insight.
As I look there are three apparently controversial issues
1. Polygammy upto 4 wives.
2. Whom your right hand possesses i.e slave girls and allowed to have intimate relations with them
3.Beating wives.
All three issues when looked at in context of 1400 years ago society may not even raise an eyelid. All three issues when looked at from the mindset of today ,in particular people living in the West, would seem to show Islam as a sexist and male friendly religion.
In my limited knowledge,
1. the religion has not stipulated it in a wording where it says that a husband MUST beat his wife.
2. If you are living in a non muslim country and the rules of that country forbid you toundergo such an act then you must refrain from it.
3. I personaly do not agree with beating a wife or polygamy and slavery has been abolished.
One has to look at it from this angle: Is beating your wife mandatory?according to Islam. It is not.
After the battle of Badr the number of orphans and widows exceded the number of muslim men, so polygamy was allowed with strict requirements.Islam allowed it but did not encourage it. There is no reason for us to practice it today, as circumstances are not the smae. The same may apply to beating wives. It may be that the verse has to be taken in context of 1400 years ago and not today.What I am trying to get at is that salat, fast are mandatory, beating wife is not.
Please have a read of the link from the understand-islam web site on the question
Is islam sexist
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=3512
and wife beating
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=544
please see the further discussion at the bottom and further related discussions on it |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Monday, June 18, 2007 - 4:55 PM
thnx W
'cos looks like K is in a full fledged mood to get me into a 'katehra'  and declare 'yes' or 'no'-although i hv requested a few times that if my replies are not satisfactory, to write to our Q service.
wish we had a bit of different style than muna'zra |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Tuesday, June 19, 2007 - 11:18 AM
Few Clarifications/Reminders/Gestures of Thnx
Thnx to Waseem who at least accepted that 4:34 does mean gentle beating under “Darab”. That’s what I wanted at this stage. May I assume that the Moderator, thanking Waseem, means she echoes his opinion????
Waseem, I believe we were not discussing if corporal, moral or mental persecution of Women in the light of Quran is permissible, mandatory, encouraging or otherwise. If you wish, we may opt for it, but through the Moderator only. I did bring the example of Polygamy but just to substantiate my claims about the current debate. Alas! Moderator evaded it, calling it beating about the bushes. Never mind, no issues.
Resp. Moderator, regretfully u did not post a direct answer against any of my argument so far. In monthly Renaissance we already have an official voice of Q service about the matter, I’m afraid what u want to know further. Ok u suggest me a Q and I’ll put to Q Service.
Waseem, I believe very first thing in this debate is to see if Allah (s.w.t.) allowed Husband to beat his Wife gently as a last resort to correct her negative attitude, since you agreed on it, so I’m happy till here.
Next in the debate is that “Does 4:34 stands revoked in U.K./US/Europe and stands valid in Saudia/UAE/Pak. etc? I believe this is not the case as till today, including SI/Almawrid Scholars, none call it a revoked (Mansookh) verse.
Next in line comes that 4:34 has a context and that context does not exist any more, then pls. you tell me that today have Wives attained immunity to an attitude identical to one that is described in Quran. I believe No, instead, today’s Wives are much more vulnerable to adopting negative attitude as described in Quran.
Further, I have mentioned in my messages, completely overlooked by you and the Moderator, that this very verse 4:34 is not super imposing over the State’s regulations and if State debars Men from beating wives then one must obey it. Besides, in the countries where it is not a punishable crime to beat wives, there too Men should resort to some peaceful alternatives, as it is not the norms of today’s society (Pls. have a go to my earlier messages, I believe you’ll find consensus).
I believe its pretty clear from me. Dear Mod. if you play a Mod. then be ready always to stand in Katehra (Witness Box), else play a novice, none would mind and u'll be spared.
Ma’salam
Kashan
Dubai |
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imran776
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 2:27 PM
AOA All,
Sorry for jumping late into the fruitful discussion addressing a sensetive issue.
I have gone through the complete post and I think while addressing any issue from Quranic perspective we need to understand few things first:
a) Why Quran has addressed this issue?
I believe this question is very important as normally it is said that Islam is a complete code of life but if we look at the shariah, we will realise that there are just few directives in this regards Now why Quran has addressed those and left others, we must look at this issue from this point of view.
2) Secondly Quran is a book as opposed to a mere combination of few directives ot aayas. So We must first understand what's the Islaimc stance on that whole issue? Like in this case the beating of wife is a directive or guidance for the institution of family, so where does Islam stands regarding it. So this must be understood in the light of whole context. Which will also determine the exact intended meaning of the word.
If we can address that as well it will help us understand better.
W/salaams
Imran |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, June 20, 2007 - 8:48 PM
In my limited knoweldge and humble opinion.
1. I would like to clearly state that my knowledge is very limited.
2. Whilst very rightly, as stated by bro Imran, certain verses of Qur'an were specific for certain occasions. We see the example of Hijab, and in the case of "Kill these Infedels". However In my opinion 4:34 is not in that category.
3.When we look at the punishments in the Qur'an. The Qur'an has given the ultimate punishments for a handful of crimes.It does not mean that every death is avenged by murder and every adultary by stoning.
4 If we look at the issue of wife beating and the steps that are suggested, we find that the Qur'an is trying to explore every possible avenue to avoid the ultimate punishment. It is a case of someone hell bent on causing anarchy in the house hold. Does not want to listen to reason, or help from council,her stance is unreasonable, and lesser actions are ignored.
I repeat the beating is not made compulsory. Husband is not forced to resort to it but still can go down the route of divorce.
We can also look at it in the light that the verse is clearly closing the route to any more serious punishment to be implemented on wife.
I return to the point of human and personal intellect. I find that the extreme scenario is extremely unlikely to occur in every day life. The issue the Qur'an is highlighting is deliberate stubborness and being unreasonable and unapproachable. The final decision lies with the implementer i.e husband. If I was in that state and felt that undertaking physical punishment is unlikely to influence tthe issue then I would consider the alternative of divorce or seperation. There is no rationale in betaing for the sake of beating. Only if there is any likelihood of succeeding.
I find this issue similar to polygamy and slavery. Slavery and intimate relations with slaves seems unimaginable in 2007. It was accepted norm 1400 years ago.
We have to ask ourselves, two questions. Firstly, the restrains beofre we reach beating are so severe that the chances are extremely unlikely that in modern society we will need to reach the stage of beating. Secondly, religion has not made it compulsory to act out. It has defined a limit hadood. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 12:52 AM
thnx for translating the 'katehra' K  |
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imran776
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 8:58 AM
AOA,
Brother Waseem you said:
"certain verses of Qur'an were specific for certain occasions"
Brother I am afraid, that's not what i meant. I will give my point of view on this issues now:
Stance of Quran on Family Institution
This issue is related to institution of family. Although single human form the building block of humanity, the building block of society is a family. The whole evolution of a person from new born to old age requires this institution and in my opinion this is one of the very basic requirements of the humans.
Man and women start this institution by marrying each other. Now like with every other institution, this institution also requires certain responsibilities on individuals (with respect to each other) hence some authority to complete those responsibilities.
One should think of this family institution as a mini state and therefore Islam has defined the responsibilities of man and women which of course are not on the modern world concept of equality of man and women, which is not only unnatural but also never practised in the world. Rather the set of responsibilities and authority is based on justice, on the natural capabilities of both sexes.
Most Likely victim in Family Institution
The most likely sufferer in the institution of family, as the history has proved, is women. Despite being in the modern scientific era and so-called civilised societies the victims of domestic violence are females.
Now the stance of Islam on family institution is clear as sated above and also the most likely victim in case of any issues as well.
So not only to preserver the institution of family but also to prevent any kind of Zulm on women, Allah has instructed man to act in a tactical way (for family preservation) in case of Nashuz and also at the same time limiting man to use beating as the last resort (not making compulsory). And the magnitude of this beating is a hit by Mikwas and the purpose is to try to a maximum level to save this institution.
Now if we keep these things in mind then we shouldn’t be ashamed of this in front of other religions. Islam has given protection to women, while preserving the family instituion. If not beating is the main and ultimate goal of modern approach, then has is been able to implement it despite being not only scrapping family system (at least practically) but also being claiming the champion of equal rights to man and woman? I will leave the decision to readers.
W/salaam
Imran |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, June 21, 2007 - 8:16 PM
| What evidence supports the point of view that beating wife lead to improvement in family infra structure. |
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imran776
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 22, 2007 - 8:03 AM
| This is not what i meant. Beating wife doesn't lead to improvement in family infrastructure, rather its can (I insist can) be a last resort to save this institution as opposed to domestic voilence. And also the extent of this beating is very clear from Hidath and the life of prophet (PBUH) and his companions.. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 22, 2007 - 6:41 PM
In my limited understanding the only way I have been able to understand the issue of wife beating is by seeing it in the same context as slavery and polygamy.Taken in context of 1400 years ago civilisation.
In today's world, I cannot imagine , from my own perspective, experience and of the family and friends I have, anyone either resorting to wife beating or implying that wife beating improved the family bonding.or helped in keeping it together.
I will ask your opinion. Supposing you were happily married with children, heir to a rich landlord, owning all the property and people in that area. I mean owning them. Would you say that in today's world you can justify having intimate relations with your female servant who is like a slave as you own her house family and land. Quoting the Qur'an Whom your right hand possesses.
I will also ask you another question, if you are married would you resort to wife beating as a last resort, if circumstances required according to the Qur'an. |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 9:25 AM
Salam Alekum
Being explicit, I agree to what Imran776 writes.
Waseem Pls. investigate the word Darab scholastically and you would find this word is neither symbolic nor is Context-specific. The word Darab (is even not a term) is very much general and means Beating, in here (4:34).
2nd thing if you really want to help yourself reach a conclusion then first just get rid of intentions to bring about a West-acclimatized Version of Islam. In Quran, there are certain things that do change its shade as per the situation that evolves, but certainly 4:34 is not among those. Allah (s.w.t.) made Men and Women and he (s.w.t.) knows well how to deal with all. We may not know or see the true results of this act (beating) but ought to accept that it’s a reality and very much approved by Quran.
38:44 is also supports that Islam does allow (of course not mandatory or even encouraging) Husbands beating Wives. But surely as a last resort to avoid disintegration of a family (Talaq).
You have ignored my pleas so far that 4:34 is not superimposing over the State’s regulations about family matters and if a certain country debars Men from Beating Wives then one must obey the State’s regulations and should opt for some other alternative to save the institution of his family. In other countries, where its not a punishable crime, such an act would stand deplorable but certainly would not be punishable or would not be regarded as a Sin as per Islam.
Resp. Moderator, yes I translated “Katehra” as I believe that those who have least acquaintance with your Urdu also click this Link. And, with due respect, I wish someone could translate the Word “Moderator” for you (Pls. draw a Smiley face here, I’m not good at it). I guess, I’ll soon see my fate of throwing out of the forum, ..well perhaps.
Ma’salam
Kashan Iqbal
Dubai |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 4:10 PM
quote:
The word Darab (is even not a term) is very much general and means Beating, in here (4:34).
will you plz specify some of those conditions when beating is ok.
Its very useful and interesting discussion ,and I hope it will continue till we reach any conclusion.
wassalam |
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