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gohar
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Friday, January 27, 2006 - 3:40 AM 
quote:
....we have won this debate!!!!
its really stupid statement,
childish and mullah like...
We are not here to win debates but to express our thinking about our issues, for the betterment of our society, to pin point ours and others missunderstandings, mis-perceptions and not understandings. |
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shahbazsaleem
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 10:47 AM
quote:
Somehow I am not comfortable with the notion that one does not need permission from the first wife for second marriage. To me this reeks of violation of the rights of the first wife.
Second if the objective of multiple marriage be upbringing of orphans, can they not be financially supported, is marriage necessary.
Third, even if it be argued that there are other issues i.e., a widow woman's desires as apart from raising orphans, should this not be treated as a test of patience, after all if scholars counsel the unmarried and the homosexuals to stay chaste, then one could make a similar argument for widows.
Comments?
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, March 22, 2006 - 3:21 PM
quote:
Somehow I am not comfortable with the notion that one does not need permission from the first wife for second marriage. To me this reeks of violation of the rights of the first wife.
I agree.
quote:
Second if the objective of multiple marriage be upbringing of orphans, can they not be financially supported, is marriage necessary.
Marriage is not necessary... Its only that at that time people do marry more than once as a routine and ALLAH only suggested that you already do multiple marriages, so for the upbringing of orphans you can marry their mothers. That is absolutely not necessary but it was an advise according to the custom and traditions of that time.
quote:
Third, even if it be argued that there are other issues i.e., a widow woman's desires as apart from raising orphans, should this not be treated as a test of patience, after all if scholars counsel the unmarried and the homosexuals to stay chaste, then one could make a similar argument for widows.
Even that argument does not means that multiple marriage is something required or appreciated. One can always stay chaste whatever the condition may be. There are many women now a days whom husband are working abroad, after all they also stay chaste... |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Monday, March 27, 2006 - 9:18 PM
Your interpretation is erroneous. You said:
" ALLAH only suggested that you already do multiple marriages, so for the upbringing of orphans you can marry their mothers"
This is not true. The verse in question allows the guardians of the orphans to marry the orphans, 1,2,3,or 4. The verse is not talking about the mothers of the orphans. Please consult other tafsirs to verify.
The orphan guardians in those times (probably now also) used to devour the wealth of the orphans. They would keep orphans with them as a pretext for keeping their wealth. Moreover they would not allow the orphan to get married as that would mean loss of the orphan's wealth. The verses in the Quran are a clear directive to the guardian to:
1-not steal the wealth of the orphan under any pretext
2-not prevent the orphan's marriage when they reach maturity and when proposals come.
3-if the guardian fears that he may misuse the orphan's wealth (i.e. use it for his own personal use or mix it with his own wealth), then the guardian should legally marry the orphan. Because there is stricker penality with Allah if you even accidentally misuse orphan's wealth than if you accidentally misuse your spouse's wealth. (This does not mean misusing someone's wealth is ok).
Please read the passage in the Quran again, it does not talk about marrying the orphan's mother, but it talks about marrying the orphan.
And Allah (SWT) knows best. |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, March 28, 2006 - 2:03 PM
Dear Oosman,
thanks for the update... Even if I totally agree with you ( I haven't check it and I will soon ) as your explanations seems to be very logical but still that doesn't allow a man to marry without permission from first wife.
Actual point here is that the Quran is mainly referring to the upbringing of orphans and not multiple marriages and It only says that for the upbringing of orphans you "can" marry more than once... So, main objective is upbringing of orphans...
Its Arab's tradition at that time that people used to marry more than once, So, the Quran only suggests that you can also marry for this purpose... BUT again COMMON SENSE tells us that one should always ask permission from his first wife as did by Hazrat Ali (rt), he asked for the permission and upon refusal of the Prophet (sws), the Father of Hazrat Ali's (rt) first wife, he did not marry again until the death of Hazrat Fatima (rt). |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, March 31, 2006 - 9:58 PM
| I agree with you mostly, and as far as permission from wife is considered, I do not know, it does not say any where either permission is required or not required. But as you said, common sense dictates you ask, otherwise it will cause many problems. |
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AbuJamiylah
USA
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Posted - Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 6:44 AM
Bismillaah
Was Salaamu Alaykum
First, Allaah does not say this:
"Remember, Allah Ta'ala stated that a Muslim man may have up to four wives (if he can take care of four) but that it is "best" that he have only one".
Allaah has never given a statement that "it is best that he have only one." So first we should be careful about saying that Allaah said what He did not say.
I also wanted to offer (as a contribution to the discussion - not with intent to be argumentative) that the Shari'ah is not actually "silent" on smoking. As it does not say the word "smoking" it is covered in what smoking does to you. If Allaah says to not let your hands be the cause of your own destruction, surely your understanding of what smoking does can clear that up. The great A'immah (Imaams) used to consider smoking "makruh" (hence many Muslims' excuse for smoking claiming it is not haraam), but what we must remember is that for people like the Scholars and Imaams of this Ummah, "makruh" was tantamount to "haraam" and it is like that for anyone who fears Allaah. Also, if they had the information that the people have today, do we believe they would have said "makruh" or "haraam"?
But about the original point: A wife's permission.
To presume anyone need's anyone's permission after Allaah's permission is shirk billaah. What Allaah makes permissible, no one can make impermissible. So He permits man to have more than one wife. Never is the current wife's consent a part of the condition. Second, let us suppose the second wife says: "No I do not give my permission." If he now considers it prohibited to him or haraam, this is kufr and associating partners with Allaah.
But if we want to say that it would make a peacful situation if he at least discusses it with her, this would be true.
Now I want to say something else that tends to annoy some people. All the discussions that we have that qualify a man taking another wife from "philosophical" perspectives go away from Islaam. It is from the Sunnah of Allaah's Messenger salla llaahu 'alayhi was salaam to marry "women" (more than one) and a man can do so, even for that reason, etc. And Allaah knows best.
Was salaatu was salaam alaa rasuwlullaah
Was Salaamu alaykum
Abu Jamiylah |
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AbuJamiylah
USA
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Posted - Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 7:12 AM
Bismillaah
was Salaamu alaykum
I apologize as I did not realize how many pages I was behind on the posts. Nonetheless my post hopefully was not actually redundant to the letter.
But I was hoping I could contribute now concerning this point.
"Actual point here is that the Quran is mainly referring to the upbringing of orphans and not multiple marriages and It only says that for the upbringing of orphans you "can" marry more than once... So, main objective is upbringing of orphans..."
That is not accurate. The truth is that men (most men in the world, not just Arabs) were marrying many, many women. And Allaah did not bring the verse to make it permissible under the condition listed above, but to actually limit the number to four. He was decreasing the number.
Allaah says (interpretation):
"And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphan girls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice."
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #3)
And about this:
""But again COMMON SENSE tells us that one should always ask permission from his first wife as did Hazrat Ali".
This wanting to run rampant with our so-called common sense. So what is common sense and what standard is used. Is it from thinking Islaamically or from the days of Jahiliyah. The kufar would claim to have "common sense".
So I ask, what is the standard procedure for coming to such a serious conclusion in this deen by socalled common sense? Tell me the formula?
This = that so it only follows that WHAT should be the end conclusion. Walk me through the thinking process? Tell me how we did so much research and feel so certain the Qur'aan and Hadith do not address this matter?
Again, maybe it is the word permission. No one needs the permission as a rule when Allaah has given permission unless you are under the rule of a State that oppresses you into not doing what Allaahu ta'alaa says you can do. That is the 'asl (principle).
And As for 'Ali radi Allaahu 'anhu, we must remember that the establishment of the deen was so much still in the works so he mentioned his thoughts of marrying someone else and the issue was not a matter of his merely taking on a "second" wife, but it was what Allaah's Messenger said in response that clears that up. He said: "Never shall the daughter of the Messenger of Allaah and the daughter of the enemy of Allaah be married to the same man." It was not the issue of a second wife. It was the issue of whom he wanted to marry. And Allaah knows best.
My du'aa is that Allaah's blessings be upon His Messenger, his family and companions and all who follow them in righteousness up til the day of Judgement AMEEN
Was Salaamu Alaykum
Abu Jamiylah |
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AbuJamiylah
USA
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Posted - Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 7:21 AM
As-Salaamu alaykum
Kind of as a footnote. As we mentioned Ali radi Allaahu anhu. I wanted to state two other things. This hazrat word, where is it from? It is not from Islaam. It is borrowed from someone else, should we show so much respect for the companions by calling them a name that is equal to imitating the kufar?
And Also regarding Ali, radi Allaahu anhu, he himself said: "If this deen were a matter of our "common sense" we would wipe the "bottom" of our kuffs in wudhu not the tops."
Surely we can see the reasoning in this as we walk on the bottoms and that is what is getting soiled.
So Ali himself made a case against being so eager to follow so-called "common sense." And Allaah knows best.
was salaatu was salaam alaa rasuwlullaah wa alaa aalihi wa sahbihi ajmaa-een
was Salaamu alaykum
Abu Jamiylah |
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muslimahangel
NIGERIA
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Posted - Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 11:54 AM
as salaam alaykum,
wow! i love u abujamylah for Allah's sake! You are d only person here who has done justice to this topic as far as am concerned. It makes me wanna PUKE when i hear brothers saying they need to take permission from their wives to take another wife. Subhanallah! how can u seek permission from another on what Allah has permitted? astagfrullah! are u saying Allah doesnt know what he is saying when he said u can marry 2, 3, or 4? we sure live in times of FITNAH! Do u know how many sisters are unmarried cos alot of our so called BROTHERS are lily livered? i pray Allah opens ur eyes and heart to the truth. i know what is like not to be married at 34.imagine if i was ur sister, daughter, niece, cousin,etc. |
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muslimahangel
NIGERIA
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Posted - Saturday, April 1, 2006 - 12:03 PM
| the problem with alot of us muslims is that we allow our emotions rule us. we live the TEXT and instead use our COMMON SENSE which isnt so common afterall. When Allah and His Rosul(saw) say or decreee something, we take it without questioning.it doesnt matter whether we like or dislike it. Allah wldnt ave decreed it in the first place if HE dnt see any good in it. WAKE UP BROTHERS TO YOUR DUTIES! alot of sisters have called me names cos of my stance on plural marriage but walahi, as amuslim, u aint allowed to reject a part of the quran cos u dnt like it. You dnt have a say in Allah's decree. I cnt even marry a brother who says or feels its compulsory to seek permission of his wife. I am talking from experience. i have seen a sister who was actually gonna throw 9yrs of marriage and 4 kids away cos her husband was gonna do what Allah says he can do. subhanallah! If a woman wld leave u she wld second wife or not. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 6:34 AM
But.tins in women only
we live the TEXT and instead use our COMMON SENSE which isnt so common afterall. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 6:35 AM
But.tins in women only
we live the TEXT and instead use our COMMON SENSE which isnt so common afterall. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 6:35 AM
But.tins in women only
we live the TEXT and instead use our COMMON SENSE which isnt so common afterall. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 6:35 AM
But.tins in women only
we live the TEXT and instead use our COMMON SENSE which isnt so common afterall. |
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Bhavittre
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, April 2, 2006 - 6:35 AM
But.tins in women only
we live the TEXT and instead use our COMMON SENSE which isnt so common afterall. |
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