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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 4:39 PM 
AOA waseem
Hope you are well. The number of issues you have raised are a classic examples of how the mistranslations and falsehoods have corrupted Islam.
Quran is for all times & if it failed this test then the foundations of Islam would indeed be like a castle built on sand.
(1) Nowhere in the Quran it states that punishment for adultery is stoning. I am afraid this is another hadith based corruption in Islam.
(2) To understand any word in the Quran one has to use the best meaning and cross reference it as to how it is used in other places. The word darba in the Quran does not mean beat. I will paste my original pt from page 1.
quote:
Before tackling the word 'Daraba'
Bear this in mind from the Quran:
39:18
"The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the BEST of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence."
Then consider some of the verses from the Quran:
14:24
"Have you not seen how God puts forth (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky."
2:273
"For the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, they cannot go forth (Darban) in the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it."
Daraba (in its natural state) means: `to put forth`
AND
The approach of choosing the `best` understanding and/or meaning is both logical and, more importantly, in-line with the guidance for study we are given by God:
So:
4:34
"The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall 1) advise them, and 2) abandon them in the bedchamber, and 3) "Idribuhun" let them go forth; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great."
(3) Quran does not permit polygamy it is again a misrepresentation over the centuries by male dominated societies who wanted to use women purely for their own grtification. Let us briefly lok at the relevant Quranic verses:
quote:
4:2 And give the orphans their properties , and do not exchange/replace/substitute the bad/spoiled with the good/beautiful , and do not eat their properties to your properties , that it was a great/large sin/crime .
4:3 And if you feared that you not be just/equitable in the orphans , so marry what (was) allowed/permitted for you from the women two twos/twos, and threes, and fours, so if you feared that you not be just/equitable, so (marry) one or what your rights owned/possessed, that (is) nearer that you not side away from justice .
I think the Quran is fairly clear that more than one marriage is only permitted if it involves the mothers of the Orphans and careful study the Quran also makes it clear this is not a lience for any one to go and marry widows but only those that have been appointed guardian(s) of the orphans.
quote:
4:129"You can NEVER be equitable in dealing with more than one wife, no matter how hard you try. Therefore, do not be so biased as to leave one of them hanging. If you correct this situation and maintain righteousness, GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful."
And if there is any doubt that Islam forbids more than one wife then I think the above verse more or less banishes that notion.
Unfortunately the corruptions by the pagans and hadith have now become so ingrained in Islam that very thing that the Quran condemns is represented as condones.
Regards |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 4:44 PM
AOA
I forgot to add.
As for slavery if you look at 90 (12,13). I think this is fairly obvious that Quranic directive is to abolish slavery.
Regards |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, June 24, 2007 - 8:22 PM
004.034
YUSUFALI: Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely
Tafheem ul Qur'an by Moudoodi
(4:34) Men are the protec-tors and maintainers of women *56 because Allah has made one of them excel over the other, *57 and because they spend out of their possessions (to support them). Thus righteous women are obedient and guard the rights of men in their absence under Allah's protection. *58 As for women of whom you fear rebellion, admonish them, and remain apart from them in beds, and beat them. *59 Then if they obey you, do not seek ways to harm them. Allah is Exalted, Great.
Brother I do not know arabic. But I enclose translations from Yousaf Ali, Pickthal, Shakir, Moudoodi, I have read the translation of Islahi and Moiz Amjad. They have all translated it beating lightly |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Monday, June 25, 2007 - 10:23 PM
Quote: I guess, I’ll soon see my fate of throwing out of the forum, ..well perhaps.
don't worry K; see you aren't..studying islam is known for its high level of tolerance alhamdulillah.. just concentrate on studies--not on moderators   |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, June 25, 2007 - 11:36 PM
AOA
quote:
Brother I do not know arabic. But I enclose translations from Yousaf Ali, Pickthal, Shakir, Moudoodi, I have read the translation of Islahi and Moiz Amjad. They have all translated it beating lightly
Neither do I but that should not stop us from researching the meaning of contentious words and how they are used in the Quran in different places. That is why I gave the examples of darba in different verses. However at the end it is up to each one us as to what to accept and what to reject. For we are only responsible for own actions.
regards |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 6:13 PM
Neither do I but that should not stop us from researching the meaning of contentious words and how they are used in the Quran in different places. That is why I gave the examples of darba in different verses. However at the end it is up to each one us as to what to accept and what to reject. For we are only responsible for own actions.
Are you saying that we all can interpret Qur'an to our liking and thus have multiple interpretations of Qur'an |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 9:47 PM
quote:
Are you saying that we all can interpret Qur'an to our liking and thus have multiple interpretations of Qur'an
Where have I said that?
Does Proper and thorough research imply interperting to our own liking. I suggest you read my posts very carefully.
If anything those that claim that certain issues in the Quran only apply to certain times are doing exactly this i.e interperting and applying Quran to their own liking.
I am afraid I find it difficult to simply accept something just because so & so has translated it or interperted it as such. My own concience, mind and intellect is the most important criterea for me. But then each to his own. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, June 26, 2007 - 10:46 PM
AOA
Just to clarify what word DARBA may mean:
14:24 الم تر كيف ضرب الله مثلا كلمة طيبة كشجرة طيبة اصلها ثابت وفرعها في السماء
Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan kalimatan tayyibatan kashajaratin tayyibatin asluha thabitun wafarAAuha fee alssama/-i
quote:
Literal: Do you not see/understand how God gave an example/proverb, (of) a good/pure word/expression ,as a good/pure tree, its root (is) affirmed/established (fixed) and its branch/top (is) in the sky?
quote:
Yousuf Ali: Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
quote:
Pickthal: Seest thou not how Allah coineth a similitude: A goodly saying, as a goodly tree, its root set firm, its branches reaching into heaven,
quote:
Assad: ART THOU NOT aware how God sets forth the parable of a good word? [It is] like a good tree, firmly rooted, [reaching out] with its branches towards the sky,
2:273 للفقراء الذين احصروا في سبيل الله لايستطيعون ضربا في الارض يحسبهم الجاهل اغنياء من التعفف تعرفهم بسيماهم لايسئلون الناس الحافا وماتنفقوا من خير فان الله به عليم
Lilfuqara-i allatheena ohsiroo fee sabeeli Allahi la yastateeAAoona darban fee al-ardi yahsabuhumu aljahilu aghniyaa mina alttaAAaffufi taAArifuhum biseemahum la yas-aloona alnnasa ilhafan wama tunfiqoo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha bihi AAaleemun
quote:
Literal:For the poor , those who were restricted/surrounded in God's way/sake , they are not able (to go) moving/traveling in the earth/Planet Earth, the ignorant/foolish thinks/supposes them (as) rich from the purity/refrainment (dignity), you know them by their expressions/marks , they do not ask/question the people persistently , and what you spend from goodness/wealth , so that God (is) with it knowledgeable.
quote:
Yousuf Ali: Charity is) for those in need, who, in Allah's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land, seeking (For trade or work): the ignorant man thinks, because of their modesty, that they are free from want. Thou shalt know them by their (Unfailing) mark: They beg not importunately from all the sundry. And whatever of good ye give, be assured Allah knoweth it well.
quote:
Pickthal: (Alms are) for the poor who are straitened for the cause of Allah, who cannot travel in the land (for trade). The unthinking man accounteth them wealthy because of their restraint. Thou shalt know them by their mark: They do not beg of men with importunity. And whatsoever good thing ye spend, lo! Allah knoweth it.
How you still choose to interpert the word is up to you.
Bringing my other examples togather if you still believe that Islam allows wife beating, polygamy & slavery but then also add that these dont apply today then from what I can understand it means that these verses have no relevance today i.e inteperting and applying Quran how you would like.
However I have no doubt that Quran is applicable today, was yesterday and will be tommorrow and the true meaning will never become outdated & that is what makes my faith in Islam strong.
Therefore I am simply not willing to accept anything without fully verifying it myself.
Equally you are just as right to believe which ever translation you wish.
regards |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 8:52 AM
Salam Alekum Prev1 and all,
Dear Friend, "Daraba" has many shades. You already have explored a few in Quran, let me add a few more.
I live in Arab for over a decade and work in an environment that is 99% surrounded by Arabs. And by that, Arabs also use Darab/Idrab while they suggest somebody to swap his ID card on Attendance-machine, press a button, Knock on the Door and a few more instances. You have already seen in Quran few shades like saying a proverb (Zarb-al-Misl in urdu), Foot-thumping on the land (or simply walking) and last but most important the "Beating".
The word "Darab" is famous in Arab for its basic meaning of "Beating". Please notice that all above-mentioned shades do carry a relationship with the basic meaning of beating. Whether it is Beating on land (walking), Beating the ID Card (Swapping), Beating a Door (Knocking), Beating a Proverb (Telling) and others. This is what Arabic is All-about. A particular Word changes its shades thereby remaining very much connected to the basic meaning.
Example: Ilm (basic Arabic word for "Knowledge") then Shades: Mo'allim (One who disperse Knowledge), Aalim (One who owns the knowledge), Allama (One who masters the knowledge), Aleem (One who has the knowledge) and so on.
You forgot to mention that In Quran (2:60) Allah (s.w.t.) asked Moses (a.s.) to “Beat” his baton against the rock (Idrab bi A'suaak…), again in Quran (38:44) Allah (s.w.t.) asked Ayub (a.s.) to “Beat” his Wife (fadrib bihi….). So for the sake of first reference that you have posted in your message from Quran (39:18), I request you to realize that the basic word Darab means “Beating” and has many other shades. Now, question can be that whether “Darab” in 4:34 is used in any of its shade or in its basic meaning?
So to answer this, please notice the Reason-of-revelation (Shaan-e-nuzul) of this verse in Ibn-e-Kathir or any other authentic book (pls. refer to my first message you’ll find it, perhaps Page 4 of the discussion).
Further, I believe we (including the ulemas that Waseem mentioned about) have a general consensus that Idrab in 4:34 means Gentle-beating. What we contend here is its application in 21st century.
Raushan your quoted, "will you plz specify some of those conditions when beating is ok". I answer, pls. read any book of Tafseer (interpretation) on 4:34 and you'll find the answer.
Slavery and Polygamy, I spare due to lack of knowledge.
I apologise for my apparently offensive wayward Concentrations in earlier messages and renew my pledge to respect those whom I find in contention.
Ma’salam
Kashan Iqbal
Dubai, UAE |
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sibtil
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 1:48 PM
quote:
You forgot to mention that In Quran (2:60) Allah (s.w.t.) asked Moses (a.s.) to “Beat” his baton against the rock (Idrab bi A'suaak…), again in Quran (38:44) Allah (s.w.t.) asked Ayub (a.s.) to “Beat” his Wife (fadrib bihi….). So for the sake of first reference that you have posted in your message from Quran (39:18), I request you to realize that the basic word Darab means “Beating” and has many other shades.
è fantastico uno dei più belli che abbia mai visto, mashallah, Kashan! |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, June 27, 2007 - 11:42 PM
AOA Kashan
quote:
Dear Friend, "Daraba" has many shades. You already have explored a few in Quran, let me add a few more.
I sincerely hope you remain a dear friend, whatever our differences may or may not be.
As you outlined a word can have many different meanings & the the Quran tells us to select the best meaning.
I am sure some of your enlightened Arab friends will also tell you that the quranic Arabic is very different to the much of Arabic today (This is purely what many of my eduacted Muslim & non muslim Arab friends tell me).
For me the best meaning is not to beat, in the verse under discussion, regardless what the consensus may be (I am afraid one of my many vices is that I dont simply accept something just because it is a consensus amongst a certain group. My concience and my mind is my main criterea but then as I have said before each to his own).
I dont think I can take this discussion any further.
For me it is clear that there is zero justification for wife beating (I Have oulined my reasons already) & I can live with that.
If you believe that Quran allows wife beating then that is your progative...However then trying to justify by downgrading the force really smacks of logical desperation. Beating of any kind is a humiliation which i dont believe a merciful Allah would allow a man to inflict on his wife. However you are welcome to disagree...as above I am afraid i cannot really take this any further.
regar |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 9:55 AM
However I have no doubt that Quran is applicable today, was yesterday and will be tommorrow and the true meaning will never become outdated & that is what makes my faith in Islam strong.
brother ! this verse from part ofthe fatwah of Usma bin Laden. Do you feel these verses are applicable today and tomorrow, or were they specific to the time of prophet pbuh?
(Al-Baqarah 2: 190 - 193)
And fight in the way of God, against those who fight you, and do not transgress [this limit]; Indeed, God does not like the transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they turned you out; for persecution is worse than killing; but do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they [start to] fight you there; but if they fight you, then slay them. Such is the reward of the rejecters. But if they desist [from their rejection], then God is very Forgiving, Most Merciful. And keep fighting them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes solely for God; but if they desist [from fighting against you], then there shall be no war except against those, who are bent upon injustice. |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 10:08 AM
Salam Alekum Prev1 and all,
Certainly we continue enjoying a healthy relationship, and would do so ever, insha Allah.
My friend, if you really are sure that the meaning you have understood for Darab in 4:34 is the only correct one then I'm convinced that you commit no sin. But, if the slightest of your ego or of your personal inclination (aiming enlightened version of Quran) makes you reach to that conclusion then I beg you to reconsider it, as it is a sinful act. Targeting such an attitude Quran says in 2:85," So you agree to some of our commandments and to some you don't; consequentially, you would deserve nothing but a doomed worldly life and the severest of punishment in hereafter".
In no way I attach my liking to the act of Beating (Women/Men/Wives/Children). Rasoolullah (s.a.w.) himself never did so. Instead, what I'm begging from you is to accept that Darab in 4:34 means gently beating. And my begging is not on the basis of our consensus (or Ijma'), No, not at all, because Consensuses never offer an authentic platform, but yes, on the basis of the following,
1- Quran (2:60, 38:44, 4:34)
2- Life of Rasoolullah s.a.w. (Shan-e-nuzul of 4:34 and Tafseer of 38:44)
3- And lastly on the basis of your own wisdom benefiting not from your experiences with prevailing situations but from your knowledge (and in 4:34 knowledge of Arabic).
I wouldn't disagree that today's So-called Enlightened-Muslims (not only Arabs) do suggest a different meaning of Darab in 4:34, but I believe we should be biased to make our point on the basis of Quran, Sunnah and the Knowledge.
About your point on existing differences in Arabic of Quran and spoken Arabic of today’s Arab, I disagree with sheer respect and state that you said it rightly but meant wrongly. See, there is a word “Dialect” and the dialectical differences always exist in every language of the world. That too exists in Arab among Saudia, UAE, Qatar, Oman and others, yet the Arabs have kept the Arabic of Quran as an ideal and absolute form of Arabic, they call it “Arabic Al Fusha”. They not only endeavour learning it but also speaking at times, and generally, every sane Arab of today would guide you to “Arabic Fusha”.
Example: Quran calls Camel as “Ibil”. Every Arab today call it “Jemel”, but every Arab would know that “Jemel” is also called “Ibil” in Quran.
I mean to say that there exists as many dialects in Arab as the number of boundaries, but Quran has kept itself alive everywhere in Arab. So as a result word “Darab” means “to beat” in every dialect of today’s Arab.
Hope it helps,
Ma’salam
Kashan
Dubai, UAE |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, June 28, 2007 - 11:29 PM
AOA
quote:
brother ! this verse from part ofthe fatwah of Usma bin Laden. Do you feel these verses are applicable today and tomorrow, or were they specific to the time of prophet pbuh?
I must confess my complete ignorance. I had no idea that he also uttered similar words. I pay very little attention to him. However even he might occassionally utter some truth.
quote:
(Al-Baqarah 2: 190 - 193)
And fight in the way of God, against those who fight you, and do not transgress [this limit]; Indeed, God does not like the transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they turned you out; for persecution is worse than killing; but do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they [start to] fight you there; but if they fight you, then slay them. Such is the reward of the rejecters. But if they desist [from their rejection], then God is very Forgiving, Most Merciful. And keep fighting them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes solely for God; but if they desist [from fighting against you], then there shall be no war except against those, who are bent upon injustice
I think you need to read the verse very carefully & tell me what is that you consider in there that does not apply to humanity at any stage of its evolution. Let us break the above into points
quote:
And fight in the way of God, against those who fight you,
Unlees you are pacifist why should you not defend yourself. Are you seriously suggesting that we should lie down in face of aggression. It does not state to initiate fighting.
quote:
and do not transgress [this limit]; Indeed, God does not like the transgressors. And slay them wherever you catch them, and turn them out from where they turned you out;
The verse is even telling you not to go beyond defending against the aggressors i.e do not harm the innocent (that is my interpertation)
quote:
for persecution is worse than killing; but do not fight them at the Sacred Mosque, unless they [start to] fight you there; but if they fight you, then slay them. Such is the reward of the rejecters.
Humans always have & always will continue to fight against persecution. The verse is stating the obvious moral point.
quote:
But if they desist [from their rejection], then God is very Forgiving, Most Merciful. And keep fighting them until there is no more persecution, and religion becomes solely for God; but if they desist [from fighting against you], then there shall be no war except against those, who are bent upon injustice
i.e only fight those that inflict injustice.
Timeless surah for me. Which bit do you find objectionable?
AOA Kashan
Is it my ego? Perhaps! I will let God judge me on that.
I am fairly clear on the meaning as you yoursself have pointed out the word can have different meanings. I cannot see God wanting wife beating under any circumstances but if you are happy with this then that is fine.
I am no expert in Arabic so no point in engaging in detailed discussion regarding evolution of the Arabic language. I was merely quoting what my Arab friends have told me. Although interstingly the example of the word for camel would support what they had told me rather than your point regarding dialect.
I did use to take the translations of the Quran as being accurate it is only after considerable effort i have realised how inaccurate and misleading many of the translations are.
Take care
regards |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 7:05 AM
| kill the disbelievers wherever they find them (Q. 2:191), |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 7:20 AM
AOA bro Perv1
The three issues mentioned in Qur'an that you have mentioned you feel yin your mind have differentexplanations to what majority of muslims believe
Polygamy you are syaing that it is only in relation to orphans and widows.
Slavery and relationship with whom the right hand possesses, you are syaing Islam abolished slavery. Could you specifically quote the verse of Qur'an that abolishes slavery.
Beating wives -you feel has a different meaning.
Further to brother Kashan, excellent post, the question is are you trying to read and interpret the Qur'an according to the social norms of today and trying to justify an alternative explanation for issues described 1400 years ago.
What are your views about Maria Qibtia. The prophet pbuh accepted her as a gift and she remained a slave. The prophet pbuh had children from her.
I believe that Qur'an is the word of Allah. Everything in it is true. I cannot deny and change the facts to suit my understanding. so if you are discussing an issue with a non muslim who asks you a question about slavery, polygamy or beating wives, is your response that all the major translations of Qur'an are incorrect. Is that our defense?
Can I ask you about Hazrat Ibrahim pbuh and Hajrah her slave. The bible and the muslim belief is that Hajrah was a slave of Sarah, hazrat Ibrahim#s wife and she offered her to hazrat Ibrahim.pbuh. Slavery and relations with slaves were acceptable norms of the society.
Broter ! please understand, I profess very limited knowledge. I am not syaing I am right and you are wrong. I also believe that you are accountable for your belief and actions and I am for mine. I am interested in not trying to convince or change you but in trying to understand the logic behind this different view about the interpretation of Qur'an.
Allah knows best
Waseem |
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