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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:49 PM 
AOA Waseem
It is very difficult to have a meaningful dialogue if you keep jumping from issue to issue. It becomes a game of cat and mouse Ah! I have got you there. Lets clarify one or few points at time and then time permitting we can discuss others.
We started with the word darba. You appear to dismiss this by saying majority of Translations & if that is going to be level of our discussion then you are perfectly right as the majority are with you. However if you have other logical explanation of why you disagree then I am all ears.
I have given you explanation & verses re- polygamy and my view is very clear, other than repeating this view I am not sure what your point is.
As for slavery I have given you the references earlier. I will be happy to discuss why you dont think it abolishes slavery.
Interpertation of anything is always is very contentious. Before we even get that far we have to establish the meaning of a particular word or verse. All I am trying to do for my own benefit is to establish the correct meaning. Try getting of this site for a while and carry out some further research and it might just challange what you concieve to be the truth.
I have had a similar conversation with a very learned Arab friend, who considered himself to be an expert on Arabic language he also rubbished my views on the word darba. I simply asked him to cross refernce it in the Quran and try to establish possible alternative meanings. He was quite astonished and now does not believe the word darba means to beat in the verse concerned. What and how you believe is purely up to you. I am quite happy with my own approach.
Just a note, many of Muslims often justify cerain view points by pointing to what the majority believe, well if you are going to adopt this approach then why not go the whole way as majority of the population on this planet do not believe in the Quran or the last prophet.
You have mentioned Kashans article:
Did I read it incorrectly or did he not give different meanings for the word darba.
It is not my defence. It is bit pointless defending something if I do not have clear understanding myself.
Yes I do believe the majority of translation are wrong...it is not a defence but I have taken the effort to find out for myself so at least if I am wrong then it is not because I am not trying.
You yourself raised the point (&correct me if I am wrong) that the beating, polygamy, slavery are issues which apply to that time only and have no place in modern society. My friend my simple question to you then is why are you a muslim. A belief in something so divene & then dismissing it as being irrelevent at different times does not, to me at least, seem to believe in soemthing very divine...please give this some thought. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 2:56 PM
AOA Waseem
Please do not ask me justify or explain something which is not in the Quran (regardless whether you other Muslims believe them to be true). I think my views on hadith and other non Quranic Sunnah are very clear.
regards |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 3:22 PM
AOA
fROM Waseem:
quote:
“And slay them wherever ye find them …” [Baqarah (2): 191]
The above unfortunately is often quoted by non Muslims. Regrettably, without citing the full context is a mischievous misrepresentation of the Quranic message. Unfortunately amny Muslim buy into this nonsense. You can take anything out of a text and give it a opposite meaning the intended one. The full context makes it abundantly clear that such slaying is sensible only when the Muslims are at war with a non-Muslim group. Although I have already gone through this before here is the full verses giving this full context are as follows:
“Fight in the way of God against those who fight against you, but initiate not aggression. Verily God loveth not aggressors. And slay them wherever ye find them, and drive them out of the places wherefrom they drove you out, for persecution is worse than slaughter. And fight not with them at the Sacred Mosque until they first attack you there, but if they attack you (there), then slay them. Such is the reward of disbelievers. But if they desist, then verily God is Ever Forgiving, Most Merciful. And fight them until there is no more persecution, and religion is for God. But if they desist, let there be no hostility except against the wrongdoers.” [Baqarah (2): 190-193]
I am surPrised that you should accept this anti Quranic propoganda. READ THE WHOLE TEXT AGAIN. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 6:40 PM
My friend my simple question to you then is why are you a muslim
I feel this sort of debate is undignified. If someone questions the basis of your belief you question why he is a muslim.
I am a muslim because I believe Islam is the right religion.However I do not justify my belief by interpreting the Qur'an as I feel suits my understanding of Islam or makes it more acceptable. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 9:22 PM
AOA Waseem
quote:
I feel this sort of debate is undignified. If someone questions the basis of your belief you question why he is a muslim.
Apologies for it was not my intention to offend. It was merely to ask if you believe Islam allows..wife beating, polygamy, slavery & slaying non believers then why do ou believe in such faith. I did not realise it was an offensive to ask someone why they believe in a particular faith for that question has been asked of me and vice versa from people of different faiths. Infact you are actually asking me what you have become offended by:
quote:
If someone questions the basis of your belief
Forgive me but have I not simply reitrated what you have asked of me?
I have not interperted anything, but simply given you alternative meaning of the verses. Surely ou are aware that every language has infinite amount of words which have different meanings.
Not once you have produced any evidence to expalin why you think the meanings I have given are wrong but seem to be stuck in this interpetation business. Yet you are the one who started the interpertation that 1400 yrs ago slavery,polygamy, slaying and wife beating would not have raised an eyebrow but now seem to be barbaric. Therefore it seems only fair to ask you why are you a Muslim. As I said I did not consider this to be offensive. I suggest you check all the pages where you have questioned me and see if on this criteria how often you have been offensive...although I do not consider you to have been so.
My friend you have raised a number of issues which I have replied point by point yet not once you have answered directly.
I will ask you simply then does Islam allow wife beating, polygamy, slavery and slaying of non believers. If the answer is yes then can you please explain why.
quote:
I am a muslim because I believe Islam is the right religion.However I do not justify my belief by interpreting the Qur'an as I feel suits my understanding of Islam or makes it more acceptable.
Again you are only too willing to question but not willing to answer.
How can you have a belief which does not suit your understanding...i am afraid you have lost me here.
Your implication here (which can again according to your own criteria is quite offensive) is that my beliefs in Islam are interperted to make them acceptable to other people...very undiginified assumption dont you think.
I would appreciate a straight answer to above |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 10:39 PM
If my reasons and justification for an argument is that this is how interpret dharbha.then I am at a loss. Would you like to quote one recognised tafseer or scholar that agrees with that interpretation.If the answer is no then I rest my case. I am sorry brother but how do I contest a personal interpretation vs all the combined scholars of Islam. The discussion comes to a stand still.
I find this reasoning extremely weak, because this is how I interpret it, simple. SO how do I challenge this?
I would be grateful if facts are not distorted. I have asked a question how we try to understand wife beating. I am not clear but I am looking for an explanation. However my belief in Allah and Qur'an is absolute. If I cannot understand it I will keep on searching and deliberating.
I have re -read your posts but I am still at a loss where in Qur'an slavery was abolished, kindly refresh my memory. You have still not answered my question about Maria and Ibrahim pbuh having relations with a slave. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, June 29, 2007 - 10:53 PM
AOA Waseem
I think you are right this discussion is coming to a stand still. I will try once more.
let us for a moment stick with darba.
MY POINT IS THAT IT HAS MANY MEANINGS HERE ARE EXAMPLES FROM THE QURAN:
14:24 الم تر كيف ضرب الله مثلا كلمة طيبة كشجرة طيبة اصلها ثابت وفرعها في السماء
Alam tara kayfa daraba Allahu mathalan kalimatan tayyibatan kashajaratin tayyibatin asluha thabitun wafarAAuha fee alssama/-i
quote:
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Literal: Do you not see/understand how God gave an example/proverb, (of) a good/pure word/expression ,as a good/pure tree, its root (is) affirmed/established (fixed) and its branch/top (is) in the sky?
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Yousuf Ali: Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
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Pickthal: Seest thou not how Allah coineth a similitude: A goodly saying, as a goodly tree, its root set firm, its branches reaching into heaven,
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Assad: ART THOU NOT aware how God sets forth the parable of a good word? [It is] like a good tree, firmly rooted, [reaching out] with its branches towards the sky,
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2:273 للفقراء الذين احصروا في سبيل الله لايستطيعون ضربا في الارض يحسبهم الجاهل اغنياء من التعفف تعرفهم بسيماهم لايسئلون الناس الحافا وماتنفقوا من خير فان الله به عليم
Lilfuqara-i allatheena ohsiroo fee sabeeli Allahi la yastateeAAoona darban fee al-ardi yahsabuhumu aljahilu aghniyaa mina alttaAAaffufi taAArifuhum biseemahum la yas-aloona alnnasa ilhafan wama tunfiqoo min khayrin fa-inna Allaha bihi AAaleemun
quote:
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Literal:For the poor , those who were restricted/surrounded in God's way/sake , they are not able (to go) moving/traveling in the earth/Planet Earth, the ignorant/foolish thinks/supposes them (as) rich from the purity/refrainment (dignity), you know them by their expressions/marks , they do not ask/question the people persistently , and what you spend from goodness/wealth , so that God (is) with it knowledgeable.
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Yousuf Ali: Charity is) for those in need, who, in Allah's cause are restricted (from travel), and cannot move about in the land, seeking (For trade or work): the ignorant man thinks, because of their modesty, that they are free from want. Thou shalt know them by their (Unfailing) mark: They beg not importunately from all the sundry. And whatever of good ye give, be assured Allah knoweth it well.
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Pickthal: (Alms are) for the poor who are straitened for the cause of Allah, who cannot travel in the land (for trade). The unthinking man accounteth them wealthy because of their restraint. Thou shalt know them by their mark: They do not beg of men with importunity. And whatsoever good thing ye spend, lo! Allah knoweth it.
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Right in the above examples it is NOT translated as to beat.
Which means that darba has meanings other than beat.
If you understand this point then let me know and I will continue with my explanation. Otherwise I think it will be sensible to end the discussion here. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 6:21 AM
thx to you all for v knowledgable posts. its a breath of fresh air to see people trying to understand with reasoning whilst keeping the faith-as this is all what islam is about.
changing the meaning completely does not appeal to me but i strongly feel that like many other words mentioned in Qur'an according to the time it was revealed in-the interpretations can be different and can be applied differently as long as it remains within the circle of the shariah/law given by islam.
punishing wife/spouse in other ways than beating according to the law and culture of the country where we live does not change/effect the basic suggestion Qur'an is presenting here as a solution to a problem developed in a family.
(like dr.M said, we ought to remind ourselves that we are talking about suggestion-because this has not been given as a rule of shariah/law here)
i think therefore we all could have some diversity of opinion in this regard and therefore am not claiming at all  what i have said is the right only 
wassala'm |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 8:58 AM
Every Muslim is aware that the Qur'an has a pivotal role in our religion.
And hold fast to the rope of God together and do not become disunited.... (3:103)
The Holy Prophet (pbuh) has explained that the Book of God is the rope of God that stretches from Heavens to Earth.
The natural outcome of this directive is that whenever Muslims encounter a difference of opinion, we resort to the Qur'an to find its solution. Unfortunately the irony is that we have gross difference of opinions concerning the interpretations of the Qur'an itself, in many instances providing contrasting explanations about its directives. This also occurred because Muslims based their Qur'anic interpretations on unsubstantiated Ahadith, different philosophies and mysticism. They also resorted to blind following of individual interpretations by religious scholars and were reluctant to question their understandings and interpretations. Furthermore the society did not encourage Intellectual inquisition towards the then accepted interpretations and beliefs about religion, to question them was looked upon as being un-Islamic. In addition to intellectual differences, the more serious issue raised by this multiplicity of interpretations of the Qur'an is that this forms the basis of the vast majority of sectarianism in Islam. Different religious groups have interpreted Qur'anic verses in different chosen ways to justify their beliefs and approaches. Each sect has adopted its own interpretation because isolating a verse from its context can associate multiple meanings to it.
Understanding Islam approach based on the thinking pioneered by Imam Farahi, aspires that when the Qur'an is interpreted in light of its theme, context and sequence, with a firm grasp of its language and taking into account the time of revelation and the phase of the prophetic mission, it reduces possibilities of different understandings from the Qur'an because it uses the Qur'an itself as the first scale for understanding the Qur'an.
According to Imam Farahi:
"There is no justification or place for more than one interpretation in the Qur'an".
Amin Ahsan Islahi in his Qur'anic commentary, Tadabur-i-Qur'an, writes:
"I have given the complete and required importance to the coherence of it's (i.e. The Qur'an's) text. Hence I have utilised the same diction and assertions in its entirety. In fact, I was forced to use the same diction and assertions, because after applying coherence, (The Qur'an) does not allow you to wonder in various valleys (i.e. different conclusions). The true fact becomes explicit right in front (of one's eyes in such a manner) that unless you are ignorant or blind you would not be able to deny it."
The text of the Qur'an will not accept multiplicity of explanations. This fulfils the obligatory and essential basis for the claim of the Qur'an that it is a balance in whose scales; everything must be weighed in order to ascertain the extent of truth; and criterion or distinguisher of good and evil which like a sieve sifts out good from evil. |
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Kashan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 9:27 AM
Excellent Dr. Khan. I truely appreciate this clarification (Ur message in green text).
Ma'salam
Kashan
Dubai, UAE |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:28 PM
Islahi states in referance to translation of Qur'an,
meen nay zoo mey sher dekha
Kis sher kee amad hey key run kaamp rahaa hey.
A literary scholar will have no problem in recognising that in the first senatnce sher means Lion the king of jungle and in the second the word sher is used as a similie for a brave person.
for Qur'an to be meezan and furqaan. The balance on which we decide right from wrong, how can we have a situation that we have multiple explanations of the same scenario. what credibility does that give to the divine guidance? |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 12:31 PM
I am still waiting for your response about verses of Qur'an abolishing slavery.
I am still waiting for your response regarding Maria qibtia
I would like to know your views that if Qur'an according to yourself is abolishing slavery, then how cna the prophet of God actually keep a slave and have children from her. Maria died after the prophet pbuh's death so deen had been completed by then |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 1, 2007 - 10:01 PM
AOA Waseem
You are correct I have not responded to some of your points. That is because as I mentioned earlier I find your style very furstrating you do not directly respond to the points of discussion but jump to another.
Therefore I cannot see any purpose in continuing this discussion. I think neither of us appear to be able to grasp each others point. As far as I can see you have not responded to any of my points directly.
We started with:
DARBA - I have given you translations by the the very people you quoted initially i.e Yousuf Ali et al. I dont know how to get the point across to you, perhaps my written language is poor. I will try once more:
I have given you the translations of the word DARBA in different verses in the Quran where it has been translated differently & THEY ARE NOT MY TRANSLATIONS. THESE ARE NOT MY INTERPERTATIONS BUT TRANSLATIONS OF THE VERY PEOPLE YOU HAVE QUOTED. As I am not even able to get this very basic point across to you I doubt whether we will be able have discussion on more complex issues.
DO YOU ACCEPT THAT THE WORD DARBA HAS BEEN TRANSLATED DIFFERENTLY IN DIFFERENT VERSES
Very simple question I dont know why you are able to answer it simply.
quote:
The text of the Qur'an will not accept multiplicity of explanations. This fulfils the obligatory and essential basis for the claim of the Qur'an that it is a balance in whose scales; everything must be weighed in order to ascertain the extent of truth; and criterion or distinguisher of good and evil which like a sieve sifts out good from evil.
I think this sums up the difference in our approach. How do you know which explanation is the correct one? |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 1, 2007 - 10:14 PM
AOA Henna
quote:
punishing wife/spouse in other ways than beating according to the law and culture of the country where we live does not change/effect the basic suggestion Qur'an is presenting here as a solution to a problem developed in a family.
(like dr.M said, we ought to remind ourselves that we are talking about suggestion-because this has not been given as a rule of shariah/law here)
i think therefore we all could have some diversity of opinion in this regard and therefore am not claiming at all what i have said is the right only
I think you are falling into the same trap. If you accept that Quran allows one to beat ones wife then say it is not rule of course it is a rule i.e permissibel. It is bit like saying max of 70mph on UK motorways is not a rule because we dont have to go up to 70. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 2, 2007 - 6:49 AM
By Javed Ghamidhi
The right of a husband to punish his wife must be understood in its proper perspective:
a. Firstly, it can only be resorted to when a wife starts to challenge the authority of the husband and threatens to disrupt the family set-up. It is in fact a last resort to protect the institution of family from breaking up. It must not be resorted to in anything less in severity than a rebellious attitude from the wife. The Qur’a#n has not used the word ‘disobedience’. Any difference of opinion or altercation is not to be resolved by this procedure. Disagreements and disputes must be settled mutually. It is only when the wife stands up against the authority of her husband should this procedure be employed.
b. Before resorting to physical chastisement, the two previous stages mentioned by the Qur’a#n (4:34) must elapse. The husband should first of all admonish his wife and convince her to give up her defiant behavior. He should exercise all the patience he can muster to urge and beseech her to change her stance. If after repeated pleas and continuous admonition in a considerable span of time, the wife continues to persist in her rebellious attitude, he has the authority to go on to the second stage by avoiding marital contact with her. This detachment, it is clear, is a form of reproof, and a very strong appeal to the wife to correct herself. Again, this attitude should continue for a substantial period of time so that the point is driven home. It is highly unlikely that most wives would persist in their arrogance after these two initial stages. In all probability, patience, forbearance, and restraint would have conquered their hearts. However, even after this stage, if a wife refuses to accept the authority of her husband, the husband has the right to finally resort to gentle physical affliction.
c. If the husband is left with no alternative but to physically punish his wife, he must be very careful in this regard and must not wound or injure her. He should remember that this physical chastisement is similar to the one a mother gives to a rebellious son or the one a teacher gives to an unruly student. He must be aware that in case he misuses this authority in any way, he would be held responsible before the Almighty on the Day of Judgement. In this world also, his wife has the right to report his behavior to the authorities who can punish him for any misconduct in this regard. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 2, 2007 - 7:03 AM
three points to make
different meanings of the same words has been used in Qur'an like Kitab for shariah as well as Qur'an, furqaan for Battle of badr and Qur'an etc.
Qur'an is meezan and furqaan. it will not tolerate multiplicity of interpretations for then it will not be meezan
If a literary scholar reads the Quranic verse in its context, nazam, referance , he/she clearly can elucidate that the word can have only one meaning which will be accepted by the sentance.
Allah knows best. I am not aware of a single scholar who has translated dharbha differently for verse 4;34. however, if you feel comfortablle that your understanding and knowledge is superior to the rest of scholars then there is not a lot to say.
I cannot argue a point where one says I think it means this because I think so. not because of any source or back up.
The question is does dharbha mean beating or not?
This is my last post on this issue as I think I have hit a brick wall.
Take care and kind regards |
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