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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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 Topic initiated on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 - 10:08 PM 
Testimony of Women
And call in two male witnesses from among your men [over the document of loan]. And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
And upon those of your women who commit fornication, call in four people from among yourselves to testify over them; if they testify [to their ill-ways], confine them to their homes till death overtakes them or God formulates another way for them. (4:15)
Upon those who accuse honourable women [of fornication] and bring not four witnesses as evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are transgressors. But those who repent and mend their ways, Allah is Most-Forgiving and Ever-Merciful. (24:4-5)
I would like to use this forum, as a means to study various commonly held(mis)conceptions on Women in Islam. The first in these series is "The Testimony of Women". Please let us have your views on the issue. More specifically, does the Qur'an require the witnessing of one man to stand equal to that of two women?
Wasalaam.
Saadia
Edited by: saadiamalik on Tuesday, November 16, 2004 10:09 PM |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Wednesday, November 17, 2004 - 6:54 AM 
>>And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
>>More specifically, does the Qur'an require the witnessing of one man to stand equal to that of two women?
As far as I know, 2:282 is suggestive as opposed to being directive. Just like the issue in the verse on women beating after separation of beds for nushuz. It does not mean you have to do it, the verse simply offers a suggestion.
So any extrapolation on 2:1 stands wrong, in my opinion.
Obviously there are women bankers and financial experts, so it would be quite absurd to consider the ratio as being 2:1.
PS: Saadia, I am so sorry, once again I ahve managed to delete your post in the general forum. Given my extreme workload these days, I am getting quite absent minded. My apologies. But please post your message again for us all in that 'homo guilt' forum.
Edited by: junaidj on Wednesday, November 17, 2004 6:56 AM |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:43 AM
quote:
As far as I know, 2:282 is suggestive as opposed to being directive. Just like the issue in the verse on women beating after separation of beds for nushuz. It does not mean you have to do it, the verse simply offers a suggestion.
So any extrapolation on 2:1 stands wrong, in my opinion.
Assalaamu Alaikum.
You went and hit the nail on the head right away - as far as I am concerned!
For all members, Shehzad Saleem sahib (Dean of Studying Islam) has penned a special issue of Renaissance - the monthly journal (if any would like to subscribe, please write to me at saadiam@wol.net.pk). He has written on 25 misconceptions about 'Women in Islam'. I would like to take each issue up, one by one, and use the women's forum for discussion. Participation would be immensely beneficial. I guarantee you. As a start up, in the following post, I'll be quoting the relevant portion. Please do read, and discuss.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 19, 2004 - 7:50 AM
The Testimony of Women*
* This part has been translated and adapted from Ghamidi’s ‘Burhan’
(Translation: Shehzad Saleem)
Since the Qur’an has in no way bound the Muslims to adopt a particular method in proving a crime, it is absolutely certain that a crime stands proven in Islamic law just as it is in accordance with the universally acceptable methods of legal ethics endorsed by sense and reason. Consequently, if circumstantial evidence, medical check-ups, post mortem reports, finger prints, testimony of witnesses, confession of criminals, oaths and various other methods are employed to ascertain a crime, then this would be perfectly acceptable by Islamic law.
It is to this fact that the following words of the Prophet (sws) allude to:
الْبَيِّنَةُ عَلَى الْمُدَّعِي وَالْيَمِينُ عَلَى الْمُدَّعَى عَلَيْهِ (ترمذى: رقم 1261)
To substantiate a crime is the claimant’s responsibility, and the person who refutes it will have to swear an oath. (Tirmadhi: No. 1261)
In the words of Ibn Qayyim:1
البينة في كلام الله و رسوله و كلام الصحابة اسم لكل ما يبين الحق فهي اعم من البينة في اصطلاح الفقهاء حيث خصوها بالشاهدين أو الشاهد واليمين
The word ‘Bayyinah’ in the language of the Qur’an, of the Prophet (sws) and of his Companions (rta) is the name of everything by which the truth becomes evident. Hence contrary to its connotations in the terminology of the jurists, it has a wider meaning because they only use it for two witnesses or an oath and a witness.
However, there are two exceptions to this:
Firstly, if a person accuses a chaste and righteous man or woman having a sound reputation of fornication. In this case, the Qur’an stresses that the accuser shall have to produce four eye-witnesses. Anything less than this will not prove his accusation. Circumstantial evidence or medical examination in this case are absolutely of no importance. If a person is of lewd character, such things have a very important role, but if he has a morally sound reputation, Islam wants that even if he has faltered, his crime should be concealed and he should not be disgraced in the society. Consequently, in this case, it wants four eye-witnesses to testify and if the accuser fails to produce them, it regards him as guilty of Qadhf. The Qur’an says:
وَالَّذِينَ يَرْمُونَ الْمُحْصَنَاتِ ثُمَّ لَمْ يَأْتُوا بِأَرْبَعَةِ شُهَدَاءَ فَاجْلِدُوهُمْ ثَمَانِينَ جَلْدَةً وَلَا تَقْبَلُوا لَهُمْ شَهَادَةً أَبَدًا وَأُوْلَئِكَ هُمْ الْفَاسِقُونَ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ تَابُوا مِنْ بَعْدِ ذَلِكَ وَأَصْلَحُوا فَإِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَحِيمٌ (24 :4-5)
Upon those who accuse honourable women [of fornication] and bring not four witnesses as evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are transgressors. But those who repent and mend their ways, Allah is Most-Forgiving and Ever-Merciful. (24:4-5)
Secondly, to purge an Islamic state from prostitutes who, in spite of being Muslims, do not give up their life of sin, the only thing required, according to the Qur’an, is that four witnesses should be called forth who are in a position to testify that a particular woman is a prostitute by profession. In this case, it is not necessary at all that they be eye-witnesses. If they testify with full responsibility that she is known as a prostitute in the society and the court is satisfied with their testimony, then they can be given any of the punishments fixed by the Qur’an for habitual criminals. The Qur’an says:
وَاللَّاتِي يَأْتِينَ الْفَاحِشَةَ مِنْ نِسَائِكُمْ فَاسْتَشْهِدُوا عَلَيْهِنَّ أَرْبَعَةً مِنْكُمْ فَإِنْ شَهِدُوا فَأَمْسِكُوهُنَّ فِي الْبُيُوتِ حَتَّى يَتَوَفَّاهُنَّ الْمَوْتُ أَوْ يَجْعَلَ اللَّهُ لَهُنَّ سَبِيلًا (15:4)
And upon those of your women2 who commit fornication, call in four people from among yourselves3 to testify over them; if they testify [to their ill-ways], confine them to their homes till death overtakes them or God formulates another way for them. (4:15)
Barring these two exceptions, the Shari‘ah does not in any way bind the court to follow any prescribed procedure to ascertain a crime. Consequently, in cases of Hudud punishments or in those of evidence in any other crime, in the view of this writer, it has been left to the discretion of the judge whether he accepts someone as witness or not. In this regard, there is to be no discrimination between men and women. If a woman testifies in a clear and definite manner, her testimony cannot be turned down simply on the basis that there is not another woman and a man to testify alongside her. Likewise, if a man records an ambiguous and vague statement, it cannot be accepted merely on the grounds that he is a man. If a court is satisfied by the statements of witnesses and by any circumstantial evidence, it has all the authority to pronounce a case as proven and if it is not satisfied, it has all the authority to reject it even if ten men have testified.
Except in cases where the Qur’an has used the words ‘منكم’ (minkum: from among you) as in 4:15 above, similar is the case with the testimony of non-Muslims: It is left to the discretion of a judge.
Here it should remain clear that our jurists hold a different view in this matter. Ibn Rushd has summed up the opinions of the jurists on this issue in his celebrated treatise Bidayatu’l-Mujtahid in the following words:
واتفقوا على انه تثبت الأموال بشاهد عدل ذكر و امرأتين لقوله تعالى : فرجل وامرأتان ممن ترضون من الشهداء واختلفوا في قبولهما في الحدود فالذي عليه الجمهور انه لاتقبل شهادة النساء في الحدود لامع رجل ولا مفردات وقال أهل الظاهر : تقبل إذا كان معهن رجل وكان النساء اكثر من واحدة في كل شىء على ظاهر الآية وقال ابوحنيفه : تقبل في الأموال وفيما عدا الحدود من أحكام الأبدان مثل الطلاق والرجعة والنكاح والعتق ولا تقبل عند مالك في حكم من أحكام البدن واختلف أصحاب مالك في قبولهن في حقوق الأبدان المتعلقة بالمال مثل الوكالات والوصية التي لا تتعلق الا بالمال فقط فقال مالك وابن القاسم وابن وهب : يقبل فيه شاهد وامرأتان وقال أشهب وابن الماجشون : لا يقبل فيه الا رجلان واما شهادة النساء مفردات اعنى النساء دون الرجال فهي مقبولة عند الجمهور في حقوق الأبدان التي لا يطلع عليها الرجال غالبًا مثل الولادة والاستهلال وعيوب النساء
There is a general consensus among the jurists that in financial transactions a case stands proven by the testimony of a just man and two women on the basis of the verse: ‘If two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses’. However; in cases of Hudud, there is a difference of opinion among our jurists. The majority say that in these affairs the testimony of women is in no way acceptable whether they testify alongside a male witness or do so alone. The Zahiris on the contrary maintain that if they are more than one and are accompanied by a male witness, then owing to the apparent meaning of the verse their testimony will be acceptable in all affairs. Imam Abu H@anifah is of the opinion that except in cases of Hudud and in financial transactions their testimony is acceptable in bodily affairs like divorce, marriage, slave-emancipation and raju‘ [restitution of conjugal rights]. Imam Malik is of the view that their testimony is not acceptable in bodily affairs. There is however a difference of opinion among the companions of Imam Malik regarding bodily affairs which relate to wealth like advocacy and will-testaments which do not specifically relate to wealth. Consequently, Ash-hab and Ibn Majishun accept two male witnesses only in these affairs, while to Malik Ibn Qasim and Ibn Wahab two female and a male witness are acceptable. As far as the matter of women as sole witnesses is concerned, the majority accept it only in bodily affairs, about which men can have no information in ordinary circumstances like the physical handicaps of women and the crying of a baby at birth.4
The jurists have based their view upon the following verse of the Qur’an:
وَاسْتَشْهِدُوا شَهِيدَيْنِ مِنْ رِجَالِكُمْ فَإِنْ لَمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّنْ تَرْضَوْنَ مِنْ الشُّهَدَاءِ أَنْ تَضِلَّ إِحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الْأُخْرَى (282:2)
And call in two male witnesses from among your men [over the document of loan]. And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
In the opinion of this writer, this view of our jurists concerning the testimony of a woman is not correct owing to the following two reasons:
Firstly, the verse has nothing to do with the bearing of witness over an incident. It explicitly relates to testifying over a document. It is very evident that in the second case witnesses are selected by an external agency, while in the first case the presence of a witness at the site of an incidence is an accidental affair. If we have written a document or signed an agreement, then the selection of witnesses rests upon our discretion, while in the case of adultery, theft, robbery and other similar crimes whoever is present at the site must be regarded as a witness. The difference between the two cases is so pronounced that no law about one can be deduced on the basis of the other.
Secondly, the context and style of the verse is such that it cannot relate to law or the judicial forums of a state. It is not that after addressing a court of law that it has been said that if such a law suit is presented before them by a claimant, then they should call in witnesses in this prescribed manner. On the contrary, this verse directly addresses people who borrow and lend money over a fixed period. It urges them that if they are involved in such dealings, then an agreement between the two parties must be written down, and to avoid disputes and financial losses only witnesses who are honest, reliable and morally sound should be appointed. At the same time their personal involvement and occupations should be suited to fulfill this responsibility in a befitting manner. The verse should not be taken to mean that a law-suit will only stand proven in court if at least two men or one man and two women bear witness to it. It is reiterated that the verse is merely a guidance for the general masses in their social affairs and counsels them to abide by it so that any dispute can be avoided. It is for their own benefit and welfare that this procedure should be undertaken.
Consequently, about all such directives the Qur’an says:
ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِنْدَ اللَّهِ وَأَقْوَمُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلَّا تَرْتَابُوا (282:2)
This is more just in the sight of God; it ensures accuracy in testifying and is the most appropriate way for you to safeguard against all doubts. (2:282)
Ibn Qayyim comments on this verse in the following manner:
فهذا في التحمل والوثيقة التي يحفظ بها صاحب المال حقه لأفي طريق الحكم وما يحكم به الحاكم فان هذا شيء وهذا شئ
It relates to the heavy responsibility of testifying by which a person of wealth protects his rights. It has no concern with the decision of a court. The two are absolutely different from each other.5
Footnotes:
1. Ibn Qayyim, I‘lamu’l-Muwwaqi‘in, 1st ed., vol 1, (Beirut: Daru’l-Jayl, 1973), p. 90
2. ie., Muslim women who habitually commit fornication.
3. ie., from among the Muslims.
4. Ibn Rushd, Bidayatu’l-Mujtahid, 1st ed., vol. 4, (Beirut: Daru’l-Ma‘rifah, 1997), p. 311
5. Ibn Qayyim, I‘lamu’l-Muwwaqi‘in, 1st ed., vol 1, (Beirut: Daru’l-Jayl, 1973), p. 91 |
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rashid23
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, November 27, 2004 - 3:20 AM
Assalam Alaikum
And call in two male witnesses from among your men [over the document of loan]. And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
It is clear that main woman witness is only one. It is suggested that second be present so that "if either of them gets confused the other reminds her". That means witness of one is acceptable but if one women "gets confused" second may be brought to "remind her". In leagal term main witness, according to Quranic verse is only one woman. The other is suggested to "remind the other" as women at that time were not involved in financial matters so second can be brought just to "remind other". This clear Quranic verse seems to have been misunderstood by our Shaikhain as the circumstances in their times were different. Now women work actively in financial matters and now it does not require to "remind the other". It is also clear that there are no clear instructions regarding witnesses in other matter & this verse can not be implied in other matters. As Islam treats male & female on equal terms, decession of making one malewitness equal to two women or not accepting women withnesses, by some of the Shaikhain is their error. And they are surely prone to error. As they did not live in the circumstances of today and there decissions & thinkings are not error free. |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, November 28, 2004 - 6:35 PM
quote:
Assalam Alaikum
And call in two male witnesses from among your men [over the document of loan]. And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
It is clear that main woman witness is only one. It is suggested that second be present so that "if either of them gets confused the other reminds her". That means witness of one is acceptable but if one women "gets confused" second may be brought to "remind her". In leagal term main witness, according to Quranic verse is only one woman. The other is suggested to "remind the other" as women at that time were not involved in financial matters so second can be brought just to "remind other". This clear Quranic verse seems to have been misunderstood by our Shaikhain as the circumstances in their times were different. Now women work actively in financial matters and now it does not require to "remind the other". It is also clear that there are no clear instructions regarding witnesses in other matter & this verse can not be implied in other matters. As Islam treats male & female on equal terms, decession of making one malewitness equal to two women or not accepting women withnesses, by some of the Shaikhain is their error. And they are surely prone to error. As they did not live in the circumstances of today and there decissions & thinkings are not error free.
Wa'Alaikum Assalaam.
Thanks very much for your input. I tend to humbly agree with you. I also tend to think, as a result of this verse, that Allah would not want to unnecessarily drag women into the court of law. Ideally, men should deal with such documentations, but if need be, women can be brought in as witnesses. Agreed.
Wasalaam.
Saadia |
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karime
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 9:52 AM
1. And call in two male witnesses from among your men [over the document of loan]. And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
2. And upon those of your women who commit fornication, call in four people from among yourselves to testify over them; if they testify [to their ill-ways], confine them to their homes till death overtakes them or God formulates another way for them. (4:15)
3. Upon those who accuse honourable women [of fornication] and bring not four witnesses as evidence [for their accusation], inflict eighty stripes, and never accept their testimony in future. They indeed are transgressors. But those who repent and mend their ways, Allah is Most-Forgiving and Ever-Merciful. (24:4-5)
Assalam Alaikum
You have stated a few verses of Holy Quran cited above; but I think you did not ask any clear question regarding to verses except that of does the Qur'an require the witnessing of one man to stand equal to that of two women?
So I mention a short explication what I learn and think as a student and seek to know better in the regard.
Verse: 1. And call in two male witnesses from among your men [over the document of loan]. And if two men cannot be found then one man and two women from among those whom you deem appropriate as witnesses so that if either of them gets confused the other reminds her. (2:282)
Meanings of these lines are as clear as said “call in two male witnesses ……………………her.
Then if you think,
In the first lines, there is shown priority to a man then a woman because why man has been chosen as witness?
Second, if two men are not found then call in one man and two women; here also it shows that man has given more importance than woman Why one man and two women?
Third, if one of them confused or forgets the other reminds her, once again it shows more importance of a man than a women because “ can a man not be confused? Why a woman has been called if she confused.
Beyond all this, I have been listening from scholars, and learnt some where in Holy Quran that Allah has raised up a stage of man than of woman; and when women heard or read this, from that day they are seen busy to solve this conclusion.
Every thing is created by Allah and called nothing less standard. Every man and woman has been given equal rights of living and equal physique (ie. Two eyes, two ears, mind, legs….); and so as to animals, birds and others; and every thing has been made as couple.
Now when we see a lion with ( four legs, two eyes, …etc ) and a fox, a deer….etc ( with the same physique ) are creations of Allah; but a fox, a deer can not kill a lion where as a lion can easily kill them; why? All are made equally then why some one can do something and other can’t do the same?
A deer and a fox etc can say why we have been given less power that we can’t fight against a loin with dare and protect our lives. Where as a loin can say why I have been given less power that I can’t escape from a man’s net and they (men) catch me at my home (jungle) easily? Somehow a lion can kill also a man; and a man can also kill a lion.
But all this does not mean to say that something is better than other; actually every qualities or powers are given to man or woman equally; so as animals and birds …., but who can utilize these more effectively of them, Allah knows better this. There fore HE separated them as we know easily.
*HE (Allah) says if one of them confused the other reminds her because HE found that she could be confused. It does not mean that HE has given her less memory but Allah has distributed his signs of creations in everyone every where differently (separately); in each separation you will find him and His signs to know Him easily and in a better way.
I think two women but hundred women are not equal to a man and also a women is not less than hundred man, even a man is not equal to a man and a woman to a woman but physically.
This is uncompleted…. And still a lot to say
But if you clearly ask your questions, it would be nice to reply or send comments/views.
Your (1) & (3) stated verses are also keeping a long discussion/explanation if you not ask any clear question.
Do reply against my comments what u did calculate as I may change my views or get more about Allah and His direction.
A. Karime, Jacobabad |
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saadiamalik
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, November 30, 2004 - 2:18 PM
Could you please give your opinion briefly, in a sentence or two? Insha'Allah, we'll carry forward our discussion from there. Thanks.
Wasalaam
Saadia |
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