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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 10:54 AM 
I agree with aboosait.
Quote of marwan:
And this answers the lame hadithi cry "are you saying muhammad was only a mouth peace and not the partner of Allah in guiding us like us hadithi people make him out to be?"
PLEASE! We're Muslims! Woe to us if we ever say that Muhammad (SAW) was a partner of Allah! He was only a servant of God, raised to honour. Stop judging us! |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, November 21, 2006 - 11:43 AM
| The fact is nida that in stating that hadith guide us to jannah, that hadith can add to and contradict the qur'an, people are putting muhmammad as a partner to allah in guidance. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:02 AM
No Brother Marwan, the fact is that you don't know the criteria for judging a Hadeeth's authenticity. Any Hadeeth that contradicts the Qur'an is not considered authentic at all by us Muslims.
And yes, we do believe that the Ahaadeeth guide us to Jannah, because they are the words of the Holy Prophet (SAW) who will never guide us to Hell.
Wassalaam, and Allah knows best. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 11:59 AM
| Brother Marwan, putting our differences aside, can you please reply to my question posted on "whom your right hands possess"? |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, November 23, 2006 - 4:50 PM
regarding hadith guiding to jannah, please consider: -
“When the servant of Allah stands calling on Him, they almost swarm all over him. Say: 'I call only upon my Lord and do not associate anyone else with Him.' Say: 'I possess no power to do you harm or to guide you right.' Say: 'No one can protect me from Allah and I will never find any refuge apart from Him –only in transmitting from Allah and His Messages. As for him who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he will have the Fire of Hell, remaining in it timelessly, for ever and ever.' So that when they see what they were promised, they will know who has less support and smaller numbers. Say: 'I do not know whether what you are promised is close or whether my Lord will appoint a longer time before it.'”
(72:19-25)
“Surely you cannot guide whom you like/love, but Allah guides whom He pleases, and He knows best the followers of the right way.
And they (Muhammad’s contemporaries) say: If we follow the guidance (Qur’an) with you, we shall be carried off from our country. What ! have We not settled them in a safe, sacred territory to which fruits of every kind shall be drawn?-- a sustenance from Us; but most of them do not know.”
(28:56-57)
“And obey Allah and obey the messenger and be cautious; but if you turn back, then know that only a clear deliverance of the message is (incumbent) on Our messenger” (5:92)
Here we are told that if we disobey Allah and the messenger, then upon the MESSENGER is only the task of delivering the message (that is, of reciting the Qur’an to the people).
“Say: Obey Allah and obey the messenger; but if you turn back (if you disobey him), then on him rests that which is imposed on him (clear deliverance of the message) and on you rests that which is imposed on you; and if you obey him, you will be guided; and nothing rests on the messenger but clear delivering (of the message)”.
(24:54)
‘and if you obey him, you will be guided’ but from (72:19-25), we see that Muhammad has no power to guide aright, hence we see here that in the context of obeying Allah and his messenger, the obeying of Muhammad is in actual fact the obedience of Allah, which ties in with what immediately follows it, namely that his mission was simply to clearly deliver the revelation (The Qur’an) and (4:80).
And if we once again look at the following verses: -
“When the servant of Allah stands calling on Him, they almost swarm all over him. Say: 'I call only upon my Lord and do not associate anyone else with Him.' Say: 'I possess no power to do you harm or to guide you right.' Say: 'No one can protect me from Allah and I will never find any refuge apart from Him –only in transmitting from Allah and His Messages. As for him who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he will have the Fire of Hell, remaining in it timelessly, for ever and ever.' So that when they see what they were promised, they will know who has less support and smaller numbers. Say: 'I do not know whether what you are promised is close or whether my Lord will appoint a longer time before it.'”
(72:19-25)
If we study the two underlined statements in this ayah we very clearly get an understanding of what it means to say ‘Obey Allah and his messenger’. The first statement: -
' Say: 'I (The messenger Muhammad) possess no power to do you harm or to guide you right.'
This very clearly indicates that Muhammad CANNOT guide us correctly (To Jannah or away from Jahhannam).
Yet the next statement says: -
As for him who disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he will have the Fire of Hell, remaining in it timelessly, for ever and ever.'
And it implies that Obeying Allah and the messenger guides to Jannah and away from Jahannam! And as Muhammad cannot guide us, but Allah and his messenger can guide us, it therefore follows that Allah and his messenger does not refer to the separate obedience of Muhammad and Allah for our guidance, but instead t the obedience of Allah through the obedience of the Messenger when he recites the Qur’an .
“And if you (o people) reject (the truth), nations before you did indeed reject (the truth); and nothing is incumbent on the messenger but a plain delivering (of the message)”.
(29:18)
No duty is imposed upon the messenger but to proclaim the message.
so just consider.
regarding the what your right hand possess forum... ill add something if i have anything that i am prepared to contribute at this time, asap inshallah.
salaam |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:48 PM
Quote:
No duty is imposed upon the messenger but to proclaim the message.
Brother, the Ahaadeeth are the messenger's words, and therefore, they are a part of the message. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, November 24, 2006 - 4:52 PM
| Actually hadeeth are someone else's words claiming to be coming from the prophet. Please don't forget this. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, November 24, 2006 - 5:20 PM
Quote:
...hadeeth are someone else's words...
Not necessarily. If all of them were someone else's words, then why would there be strong and weak Ahaadeeth? Therefore, it's possible that the strong ones are his (SAW) words.
Wassalaam, and Allah knows best. |
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askhalifa
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Friday, November 24, 2006 - 6:14 PM
Thank you Marwan,
I never knew that I can follow Quran unconditionally. Actually hadith restrict us from wife beating. But Quran says
3:34
Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.
There is no limit for beating is set. Yes, I won't kill her. because killing is prohibited in Quran.
Thank you.. |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 12:22 AM
actually its the hadith which forced the meaning of beating.
Otherwise, it can be translated as "separate (from her)" which is more qur'anically logical.
So you are welcome. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 4:30 AM
By Mufti Taqi Usmani
The Status of the Holy Prophet (pbuh)
So, the first pertinent question in the subject is: What status does a prophet occupy when he is sent to the people? Has he no higher a status than that or a message-carrier or a postman who, after delivering the letter, has no concern with it whatsoever? The answer is certainly in the negative. The prophets are not sent merely to deliver the word of Allâh. They are also required to explain the divine Book, to interpret it, to expound it, to demonstrate the ways of its application and to present a practical example of its contents. Their duty is not restricted to reciting the words of the Book, rather they are supposed to teach it and to train people to run their lives in accordance with its requirements. The Holy Qur’ân leaves no doubt concerning this point by saying:
Allâh has surely blessed the believers with His favor when He raised in their midst a Messenger from among themselves, who recites to them His verses and makes them pure and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom, while they were, earlier in open error. (3:164)
He (Allâh) is the One who raised up, among the unlettered, a Messenger from among themselves who recites the verses of Allâh, and makes them pure, and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom. (62:2)
The same functions were attributed to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) in the prayer of Sayyidna Ibrahim (pbuh) when, according to the Holy Qur’ân, he prayed:
Our Lord, raise in their midst a messenger from among themselves who recites to them Your verses and teaches them the Book and the Wisdom and purifies them… (2:129)
These are the terms of reference given to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which include four distinct functions and the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has been entrusted with all of them:
(1) Recitation of the Verses of Allâh.
(2) Teaching the Book of Allâh.
(3) Teaching the Wisdom.
(4) Making the people pure.
Thus, the Holy Qur’ân leaves no ambiguities in the fact that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is not supposed to merely recite the verses and then leave it to the people to interpret and apply them in whatever manner they like. Instead, he is sent to “teach” the Book. Then, since teaching the Book is not enough, he is also required to teach “Wisdom” which is something additional to the “Book.” Still, this is not enough, therefore the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has also to “make the people pure,” meaning thereby that the theoretical teaching of the Book and the “Wisdom” must be followed by a practical training to enable the people to apply the Book and the Wisdom in the way Allâh requires them to apply.
These verses of the Holy Qur’ân describe the following functions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh):
(a) He is the authority in the way the Holy Book [the Qur’ân] has to be recited.
(b) He has the final word in the interpretation of the Book.
(c) He is the only source at which the wisdom based on divine guidance can be learned.
(d) He is entrusted with the practical training of the people to bring his teachings into practice.
These functions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) can never be carried out unless his teachings, both oral and practical, are held to be authoritative for his followers, and the Muslims who are given under his training are made bound to obey and follow him. The functions (b) and (c), namely, the teaching of the Book and Wisdom require that his sayings should be binding on the followers, while the function (d), the practical training, requires that his acts should be an example for the Ummah, and the Ummah should be bound to follow it.
It is not merely a logical inference from the verses of the Holy Qur’ân quoted above, but it is also mentioned in express terms by the Holy Qur’ân in a large number of verses which give the Muslims a mandatory command to obey and follow him. While doing so, the Holy Qur’ân has used two different terms, namely the “itaa’ah” (to obey) and “ittibaa’” (to follow). The first term refers to the orders and sayings of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) while the second relates to his acts and practice. By ordering the Muslims both to “obey” and to “follow” the Holy Prophet (pbuh), the Holy Qur’ân has given an authority to both his sayings and acts. |
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askhalifa
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 4:41 AM
quote:
actually its the hadith which forced the meaning of beating.
Otherwise, it can be translated as "separate (from her)" which is more qur'anically logical.
So you are welcome.
So, you mean to say
We have to reject the hadith and accept your explaination of saying "it can be translated" Why did Allah SW used this word which can be translated as "seperate" rather than using a clear word? Why did he used the word which create such conufsion?
However, direct meaning of daraba is to beat. You like it or not.
Don't give lame excuses such as "can be translated as". If I accept your reasoning, this means your interpretation is more precious than hadith. If accepting hadith as shirk than accepting your interpretation is definitely greater shirk. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, November 25, 2006 - 11:27 AM
askhalifa,
excellent post brother..
It is one of the reasons of opposing hadith blindly ..
salam |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 5:55 PM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum Brother askhalifa!
I agree with Brother raushan regarding your post. |
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sahira
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, November 26, 2006 - 9:02 PM
| marwan bhai, you jump ship alot im still waiting for your reply on is islam turning into Mohammadasim are you choosing not to answer or do you not have an answer. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 6:49 AM
By Mufti Taqi Usmani
We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.
The word “Zikr” has been used here for the Holy Qur’ân as has been used in the verse 15:9 and it has been made clear that the people can only benefit from its guidance when they are led by the explanations of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
Again, the words “for the people” indicate (especially in the original Arabic context), that the Holy Prophet’s (pbuh) explanation is always needed by “everyone.”
Now, if everyone, in every age is in need of the prophetic explanation, without which they cannot fully benefit from the Holy Book, how would it be useful for them to preserve the Qur’ânic text and leave its prophetic explanation at the mercy of distorters, extending to it no type of protection whatsoever.
Therefore, once the necessity of the prophetic explanations of the Holy Qur’ân is accepted, it will be self-contradictory to claim that these explanations are unavailable today. It will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy to establish the necessity of the sunnah on the one hand and to make its discovery impossible on the other. Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise. |
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