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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 11:45 AM 
quote:
quote:
actually its the hadith which forced the meaning of beating.
Otherwise, it can be translated as "separate (from her)" which is more qur'anically logical.
So you are welcome.
So, you mean to say
We have to reject the hadith and accept your explaination of saying "it can be translated" Why did Allah SW used this word which can be translated as "seperate" rather than using a clear word? Why did he used the word which create such conufsion?
However, direct meaning of daraba is to beat. You like it or not.
Don't give lame excuses such as "can be translated as". If I accept your reasoning, this means your interpretation is more precious than hadith. If accepting hadith as shirk than accepting your interpretation is definitely greater shirk.
so are you questioning Allah's motives?
How about this, Allah knew that some men would ascribe to the prophet that this word should be understood as beating as they followed other than the Qur'an. And so he made it as a test for people like you to see what they follow.
More later... |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 2:07 PM
quote:
no problem sahira... I have a life and have debating homosexuals as well...salaam
I FAIL TO UNDERSTAND WHAT 'debating homosexuals' HAS TO DO IN THIS THREAD.
The ongoing debate if I am not mistaken is on 'wife-beating'
Two possible meanings for the word 'dharaba' have been highlighted.
Brother Marwan and his supporters insist that a particular meaning only should be accepted. Whereas Authentic Hadeeth shows that Muhammed Rasoolullah (Sallahu Alaihi Wasallam) has preferred the second meaning.
Who is more competent to select the right meaning of aparticular word - Allah's Apostle or a great scholar of the 21st Century?
Muhammed's (s.a.w.) words ofcource
I have in my files a discussion which took place between two scholars on this subject recently. I shall search out and copy it for your reading asap.Insha Allah. |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 2:28 PM
quote:
I have in my files a discussion which took place between two scholars on this subject recently. I shall search out and copy it for your reading asap.Insha Allah.
The Milli Gazette <edit@milligazette.com> wrote:
Assalamu 'alaikum.
"Daraba" in Arabic means only to hit and strike.
When used alone as in the Quranic verse in question(like "Darabtuhu"/ "Udrubuhunna"], it has only this meaning.
However, if used with "ard" [land] it means "to travel" as in the Quran in various places (e.g.,2:273, 4:101, 5:106].
As a stand-alone verb it never means to travel or to abandon.
The explanation below is a fabrication by the so-called "Islamic scholar".
To be double sure, I have just checked the most authoritative Arabic
dictionary, Lisan Al-'Arab, and it does not offer any such meaning for "daraba" used in the verse which, in any case, is qualified to "mild beating". There are many powers one enjoys but he never uses them and there is no question that now when women are educated and self-dependent, this would be required or even tolerated by women. They may even write down in their marriage contracts that their husbands will not use such powers against them like the talaq or polygamy provisions which a woman
can restrict. In case of talaq, she can even take this right in her own hands or make it conditional in whatever way she likes.
Zafarul-Islam Khan
Alumnus Al-Azhar Uni., Cairo, & PhD, Islamic Studies, Manchester Uni.
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 2:48 PM
PLEASE IGNORE THE FOLLOWING SENTENCE IN THE ABOVE QUOTE AS THIS REFERS TO THE POST WHICH HE RECEIVED FROM 'THE SO CALLED ISLAMIC SCHOLAR' AND WHICH I HAVE NOT COPIED HERE.
The explanation below is a fabrication by the so-called "Islamic scholar" |
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marwan
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 3:37 PM
The other thing i wanted to add to my last post is specifically because allah did not define what was meant by the beat meaning, then that is not the meaning, as I, unlike mushrikeen do not believe that Allah revealed an incomplete and incomprehensible text only to be clarified by contradictory and fabricated sayings.
Next, I quote from lughatul quran by Abdul mannan omar (based on lisan, taj and others):-
ضرب
This word admits a great variety of meanings and interpretations as: To heal, strike, propound as an example, put forth a parable, go, make a journey, travel, mix, avoid, take away, put a cover, shut, mention, state, propound, set forth, compare, liken, seek away, march on, set, impose, prevent, fight, traffic with anyone's property for a share in the profit, leave for sake, take away thing (with 'an). Dzaraba bi arjulihi: He travelled, Dzaraba al-ardza Without fi or with fi: To travel. Dzaraba fulanun al-gha'ita: to go to relieve the bowels , go to privy, go for earning livelihood. La tudzrabu akbad al ibili illa ala thalathati masajida: la turkal fala yusaru ilaiha: One must not ride to go but for three mosques. etc...
For Dzaraba:-
He set forth, coined, propounded, compared, gave, mentioned, traveled, took away, avoided (with 'an).
For Idzrib: -
Strike, go, seek a way, march on.
etc...
Lane's lexicon had nearly 7 pages on this word and its forms and lisn has allot on it too. |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 3:49 PM
quote:
.....define what was meant by the beat meaning,.....
Your arguement has already been proved wrong in my post dated Monday, November 27, 2006 - 2:28 PM |
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sahira
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, November 27, 2006 - 9:05 PM
QUOTE no problem sahira... I have a life and have debating homosexuals as well...
and this means what exactly |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 12:44 AM
[quote TextI have shown that you statement that the word dzarb has only two meanings is plain false.
You have refuted nothing abusait.
YOU HAVE NOT READ MY POST WHERIN I HAVE QUOTED FROM Zafarul-Islam Khan
Alumnus Al-Azhar Uni., Cairo, & PhD, Islamic Studies, Manchester Uni.?. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:09 AM
what is the meaning of the word 'homosexual' and 'gay', and is there any difference?
Also who is a sodomite, are all homosexuals sodomites? Are all sodomites homosexuals?
Edited by: oosman on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 1:18 AM |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:40 AM
showing homosexuals the truth of their perversion.
PLEASE ELABORATE |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 11:07 AM
| Brother marwan, what exactly was your point of bringing up the topic on homosexuals? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:11 PM
Can you clear some confusion in the terminology you used. There seems some minor contradiction. You said:
quote:
"Homosexual" is the term which is used in reference to those who are sexually attracted to and have perverted sex with people of the same gender.
quote:
A sodomite is one who sodomises
quote:
So not all homosexuals are sodomites
How is that possible that all homosexuals have perverted sex but they are all not sodomites?
Is it possible to have a homosexual who does not have 'perverted sex' and/or sodomy?
Is it a sin to be a homosexual who does not have sodomy and does not have perverted sex?
Thanks for the definitions and clarification. |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 1:24 PM
quote:
to aboosait: -what do you mean elaborate? Do you want 200 pages of research or are you looking for a definition?
Dont act silly. I meant 'elaborate as to what relevance the subject of homosexuals has in this thread'. |
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askhalifa
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 5:25 PM
quote:
so are you questioning Allah's motives?
Definitely not. But, if you insist that daraba means to seperate here, than my question is to you why did Allah used the word which has direct and well know meaning of "to beat"
Just recall what you have writter earlien "1. The Qur’an is complete and detailed for our guidance." If what you have said is correct, if Quran is complete and detailed than we have to agree that, Allah has give permission to beat their wives in certain circumstances, and limit of beating is not set. He can beat the wife as much as he wish, but not to her death. If you say daraba means to seperate, than Quran is incomplete and not in detail. That's my point
quote:
How about this, Allah knew that some men would ascribe to the prophet that this word should be understood as beating as they followed other than the Qur'an.
Even if we don't follow hadith, it was direct meaning of the word. Actually, hadith came to rescue the women and set a limit for beating
quote:
And so he made it as a test for people like you to see what they follow.
Ok, if a person follows the direct meaning of the word daraba he fails the test and if a person follow indirect meaning discovered by marwan in 20th century he passes the test.
The very fact that daraba carries different meaning that you have mentioned, only proves that we require another authentic source to explain Quran. Otherwise, everyone would take whatever meaning they want and will have all different religions in the name of Islam |
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askhalifa
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 5:29 PM
quote:
2. The excellent example of the prophet can be found in the Qur’an in the same way it can for Ibrahim.
Prove this only from Quran. Where did Quran mentiones that excellent example of Quran is found only in Quran? And yes don't give your understanding, Prove directly from Quran. Otherwsie you would be saying that, reject hadith and accept ME |
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askhalifa
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Tuesday, November 28, 2006 - 5:40 PM
quote:
3. The only revelation/inspiration given to Muhammad was the Qur’an. That is, it is the only guidance from Allah that reaches him.
Again prove this from Quran.
Read the translation of the verse
066.003 When the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his consorts, and she then divulged it (to another), and Allah made it known to him, he confirmed part thereof and repudiated a part. Then when he told her thereof, she said, "Who told thee this? "He said, "He told me Who knows and is well-acquainted (with all things)."
Al-Qur'an, 066.003 (At-Tahrim [Banning, Prohibition])
According to this ayah Allah informed Prophet Mohammed that one of his wife have disclosed his secret. Could you tell me in which ayah Allah SW told this to the prophet. Clearly, Allah SW have told something to the prophet which is not their in Quran.
From the context, its clear that this ayah was revealed after the incident.
Kindly, don't change the topic. We are discussing Hadith authenticity
Edited by: askhalifa on Tuesday, November 28, 2006 5:42 PM |
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