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These are the Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, revelations, etc.) of Allâh, which We recite to you (O Muhammad SAW) with truth. Then in which speech after Allâh and His Ayât will they believe? (Al-Jathiyah 45:6)

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Yours comments:-Yet again Allah is forbidding to believe in any speech (recital, hadith or what ever meaning you choose to give) other than the recital, speech etc of the Quran.

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Now tell me in the light of the above suras why do you still continue to believe in speeches outside the Quran or do you not believe what the Quran is telling you/

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My response:- Brother were you in yours senses when you have wrote this?.Don’t get angry but please try to realize that how wrongly you are interpreting the above verse(45:6).See how I am interpreting these verse below. Please compare this with yours one and look at the verse again and then please give yours comments on them.I hope this way we will understand the Quran more better.

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My Interpretation:- Brother if you will see this verce in the context then Allah here saying this to nonbelievers that is, "When these people have not believed even after Allah's own arguments have been presented for His Existence and His Unity(as mentioned in the previous verses), what else can be there by which they will gain the faith ?

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It is not saying at all that don’t believe in any thing elsc than Quran neither there is any sense to say that don’t believe any thing else than Quran to those people whom not yet have faith brother.Here the are arguments presented to non-believers so they might have faith.

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My Interpretation:- Brother if you will see this verce in the context then Allah here saying this to nonbelievers that is, "When these people have not believed even after Allah's own arguments have been presented for His Existence and His Unity(as mentioned in the previous verses), what else can be there by which they will gain the faith

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Indeed in their stories, there is a lesson for men of understanding. It (the Qur'an) is not a forged statement but a confirmation of the Allâh's existing Books [the Taurât (Torah), the Injeel (Gospel) and other Scriptures of Allâh] and a detailed explanation of everything and a guide and a Mercy for the people who believe.[] (Yusuf 12:111)

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Yours comments:-Yes of course- Torah & Injeel mentioned by name...where are Bukhari et al mentioned above.

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My response:-I hope you have red the Torah & Injeel,if you have red than you surely knows that there are very few verces there which are the words of Allah.Most of old testament and new testament is full of sayings of prophet Moses and specially Prophet Jesus(peace be upon them).

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But here in this verse above still Allah confirm them as His Scriptures

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This is some thing especial for Quran that it is 100% are the words of Allah

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But it not means that words of Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) have not important for us

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That is the reason Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) is called second source of Islamic laws.

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perv1UNITED KINGDOM Posted - Friday, January 05, 2007 - 11:38 AM

Salaam aboosait

I dont believe these stupid stories of Ayesha being 6 and the prophet havein sex with numerous wives duting one noght or cutting peoples hands or gorging their eyes out.

THE WHOLE PURPOSE MY POST WAS THAT THESE STORIES ARE MENTIONED IN THE HADITH...THEREFORE HOW CAN YOU TRUST THESE HADITH.[/quote]

Wa alaikum assalam.w.r.w.b

When you are sure that some stories are baseless, why do you give publicity to them rather than propagate the Truth?

Many contemporary Muslims who have not been trained in the sciences of hadith regard the collections of Bukhari and Muslim as particularly reliable, and tend to accept them as sure and certain.

Trained Islamic scholars are much more likely to adopt a critical stance towards even the sahih collections, and caution that hadith have to be weighed and evaluated, not accepted as true without further consideration.

Hence the MSA* collection of hadith, warns:

“Today, the situation is different. The collections of ahadeeth have for the most part stabilized, and with the advent of the printing press, the collections are easily mass-produced. There is a blessing in all this of course, but there is a real danger that Muslims will fall under the impression that owning a book or having a database is equivalent to being a scholar of ahadeeth. This is a great fallacy. Therefore, we would like to warn you that this database is merely a tool, and not a substitute for learning, much less scholarship in Islam.”

*(The Muslim Students Association of the U.S. and Canada is also known as MSA National. It is an umbrella organization for all of the chapters at various campuses across the continent)

You are adviced to learn the science of hadeeth before making a fool of yourself in public forums.

(The Science of hadith is the process that Muslim scholars use to evaluate hadith.)
The classification of Hadith into Sahih (sound), Hasan (good) and Da'if (weak) was firmly established by Ali ibn al-Madini (d. 234 AH).

Later, al-Madini's student Muhammad al-Bukhari (d. 256 AH.) authored a collection that he stated contained only Sahih hadith.

al-Tirmidhi (d. 279 AH) was the first traditionist to base his book on al-Madini's classification .

Ilm ar-Rijal

Ilm ar-Rijal is the "science of biography".

The earliest remarks cited in the books of Rijal go back to a host of Successors, followed by those after them until the period of the Six major Hadith collections, a period covering the first to the third centuries AH .
Comments about individual narators can include :

• "Imam (leader), Hafiz (preserver)."

• "Reliable, trustworthy."

• "Makes mistakes."

• "Weak."

• "Abandoned (by the traditionists)."

• "Liar, used to fabricate ahadith."

This resulted in individual verdicts on each of the Narrators of hadith.

Dump merge

The commonest technique consists of a careful examination of the isnad, or chain of transmission.

Each hadith is accompanied by an isnad: A heard it from B who heard it from C who heard it from a companion of Muhammad.

Isnads are carefully scrutinized to see if the chain is possible (for example, making sure that all transmitters and transmittees were known to be alive and living in the same area at the time of transmission) and if the transmitters are reliable.

The scholars reject as unreliable people reported to have lied (at any point), as well as people reputed to be stupid (and thus likely to misunderstand the saying).

Early Sufis, or Muslim mystics and ascetics, are also distrusted by the legal scholars. Imam Malik comments dismissively on "an ascetic who doesn't know what he is narrating". [citation needed]

Sunni scholars regard affiliation to some extreme Shia and Qadariya sects as sometimes reducing a narrator's reliability, due to these sects' alleged propensity for fabricating hadith; Kharijites are seen as less likely to fabricate. However, they generally accept these narrators too as long as they were not engaged in actively spreading their views.

Shi'a scholars, conversely, doubt the impartiality of the Sunni scholars, and privilege narrators known to have followed Ali and his descendants.

Patricia Crone a skeptic of established Islamic history has stated

"One of the biggest problems with the method of authentication by isnads is early traditionists were still developing the conventions of the isnad.

"They either gave no isnads, or gave isnads that were sketchy or deficient by later standards. Scholars who adhered strictly to the latest standards might find themselves rejecting or deprecating what was in fact the very earliest historical material, while accepting later, fabricated traditions that clothed themselves with impeccable isnads".

(Roman, provincial and Islamic Law, Patricia Crone, pp. 23-34 of the paperback edition)

Hadith that were not thrown out as clearly spurious (maudu') were usually sorted into three categories:

• "genuine" (sahih, the best category)

• "fair" (hasan, the middle category)

• "weak" (da'if)

Some of the sahih hadith were further distinguished as mutawatir, or agreed upon. The sayings or events reported in these hadith were attested by so many witnesses, though different isnads, that it was thought inconceivable that these hadith could be forgeries.

For more clarification here's a modern scholar view; Sheikh Ahmad Kutty is a Senior Lecturer and an Islamic Scholar at the Islamic Institute of Toronto, Ontario, Canada.
The fundamental Islamic sources such as the Qur'an and the core traditions of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) have been fully preserved intact. This can be demonstrated easily by referring to the sound historical methodologies in verifying the sources.
There is a basic distinction between Islam and other religions in this regard:

Islam is singularly unique among the world religions in the fact that in order to preserve the sources of their religion, the Muslims invented a scientific methodology based on precise rules for gathering data and verifying them.

As it has been said, "Isnad or documentation is part of Islamic religion, and if it had not been for isnad, everybody would have said whatever he wanted."

So, there is no comparison between the sources of Islam and those of other religions in this respect, as you will never find anything comparable to the many sciences Muslims invented for this noble task of preserving the sources of Islam. By virtue of such sciences, you can scrutinize and verify every report in the sources.

Thanks to these efforts, the Qur'an as well as the core tradition on which the Islamic faith and practices are based, have been fully protected.

In this context, it should be added that the process of recording Hadith started as early as the time of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him). Actually, many Companions recorded hadiths, and, `Abdullah ibn `Amr, for example, was permitted and even encouraged by the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) to write down Hadith.

In addition, some 50 Companions and many Successors are said to have possessed manuscripts (sahifah, Arabic plural suhuf), which was used as a term to designate compendia of Hadith that emerged during the century before the formation of the classical collections.

For more elaboration, you can read about the stages of recording Hadith.

References http://www.jamiat.org.za/isinfo/tirmidhi04.html
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah

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Salaam aboosait

My friend i find you writing extremely difficult to read, so perhaps i might have evn misunderstood the points you are trying to make.
Any chance of using a bigger font so it is easy to read.

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Trained Islamic scholars are much more likely to adopt a critical stance towards even the sahih collections, and caution that hadith have to be weighed and evaluated, not accepted as true without further consideration.

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Today, the situation is different. The collections of ahadeeth have for the most part stabilized, and with the advent of the printing press, the collections are easily mass-produced. There is a blessing in all this of course, but there is a real danger that Muslims will fall under the impression that owning a book or having a database is equivalent to being a scholar of ahadeeth. This is a great fallacy. Therefore, we would like to warn you that this database is merely a tool, and not a substitute for learning, much less scholarship in Islam.”

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*(The Muslim Students Association of the U.S. and Canada is also known as MSA National. It is an umbrella organization for all of the chapters at various campuses across the continent)

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You are adviced to learn the science of hadeeth before making a fool of yourself in public forums.

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Nida_e_Khair Posted - Wednesday, January 03, 2007 - 1:58 PM
Assalaamu 'Alaikum.
Thankyou brother aboosait for your effort. But you know what?....

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1.why quran says about itself that it is in arabic language?

It is repeated at least 12 times.why its so important.
dont you feel its unique.

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Can you plz shed some lights on it?

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2.do we need any support to learn and understand Quran.

YES

if yes,then tell us some of them.

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Wa Alaikum assalam w.r.w.b....
You have judged him right. For everything he says 'murgi ki ek tang'
...anyway it is like 'bail ke age khutba padhna'
Wa s salam.

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