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JunaidHasan
GERMANY
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 Posted - Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 10:13 PM
Thank you, brother Ibrahim, for your explanation. I don't want to argue but learn... Please explain a little more of how a hadith (if it is narrated by so many of people e.g., 70) cannot be regarded as a basic source? My mind says that it should be, simply because such large number of people cannot lie.
Yours Brother,
Junaid |
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ibrahim
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006 - 2:28 PM
| well Br u r RIGHT but tell what ur MIND says about a KHABER that comes to U VIA Generation to Generation & the other that comes to U via 70 or 100 OR even 1000 people? which of those TWO shud be more Authentic/reliable & if U'll be Given the Choice to make ONE as ur SOURSE wich of the TWO u'll select for this Purpose? |
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JunaidHasan
GERMANY
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Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006 - 5:28 PM
If I have to choose one, I'd definitely go for the “khabar” that comes to me via generation to generation method of transmission.
But see, if a “khabar” reached to the “muhaddaseen” from a large number of people from “qurun-e-oola” and afterwards that “khabar” got recorded in the books of “ahadith” which have transferred to us via generation to generation transmission (in the written as well as spoken form), doesn’t it make such a “khabar” an absolutely authentic source of the “D’in”? Secondly, why do we have to choose only one out of these two sources: “Mutwatir Ahadith” and “Sunnah”? I mean, wouldn’t it be better if we regard both of them as the authentic sources?
Sincerely,
Junaid |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 8:57 AM
Brother Ibrahim
Quote:-U both NOT KNOW the Difference Between a Khaber e Wahid & Khaber e Mutawaatir. Plz carefully NOTE that a Hadith Even if its Narraters r 70 may be Regarded as a Mutawater Hadith BUT it is STILL a Khaber e Wahid Bcoz Khaber Mutawatir means that KHABER whose Narraters r UNCOUNTABLE
Reply:-What you have said above, it could your owm understanding but not the understanding of great scholars of Islam of any time.What actually you are saying that we should leave asdie all the Ahadith which Quran calling again and again to follow.The four great scholars of Islam has formed the four Medhabs and Ahadith have a very basic role on them.The fifth Medhab also based on Ahadith and they are called (Ahelay Hadees).
Brother this course is based on lies when this give the impression to his students that this course is not giving a new idea and all Muslim have consensus on how this course presenting the religion.
Now I would recommend to you that don’t tell any further lies and accept what this website have presented in this course is based on your own understanding of the religion. The current practice of the religion by the Muslims all over the world by following four Madhab and who ever takes Ahadith as a basic source of the religion are doing a big mistake as per this website’s understanding.
This would the fair way and if still people wish to 2nd yours understand of religion,so every one is free to choose what ever he likes in this world. |
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Tariq Hashmi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:10 AM
assalaam o alaikum
We believe in the sources of religious knowledge that are beyond doubt. The views of the scholars will only be helpful in understanding somethign they cannot be considered bidning without the arguments presented to substantiate them. It is only the word of the Prophet (pbuh) that has to be accepted without hesitation.
The first and foremost things is to resolve the issue whether the word Sunnah connotes concepts, ideas beliefs or historical narratives therfore, i wouel request you kindly to:
1. Please explain with example from the classical Arabic that it does.
2. How does the narrator (Hazrat Aaisha rta) take the word Sunnah in the following tradition:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported.: Halt at al-Abtah is not the Sunnah. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) halted there simply because it was easier for him to depart from there, when he left. (Muslim No: 1311)
Regards,
Tariq |
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ibrahim
Moderator
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 17, 2006 - 11:49 AM
well br Junaid that's GOOD to SEE that U have gone for the “khabar” that comes to U via generation to generation method of transmission.
But
No plz Note that reality that There is Hardly any Hadith that Fulfils the Twatur Condition of Muhaddiseen. It is Imagination & not Fact that we can Find a Hadith that have 70 Narraters in EVERY generatation till it reaches to the “muhaddaseen”.
Secondly, we have to choose only those things as OUR authentic sources that HAVE NO DOUBT in them as Described above by Br Tariq.
& Br Sohail Usmani! if u r Really serious in Understanding at least our Point of View than plz NOTE that this is NOT OUR unrestanding about the Status of Hadith. It's, as i've written in my prev. posts as well, the OPINION of ALL GREAT Myhadditheen like Imaam Bukhari, Imam Muslim & others + Imam Abu Hanifah, Imam Shafi'ee & others. plzzzzz JUST try to Understand RATHER just NEGATING us.
&
thanks 4 Admitting that every one is free to choose what ever he likes in this world.
&
Believe ME everyone is Responsible ONLY for What he chose for himself as he is BOUND to FOLLOW that According to HIM is RIGHT. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, June 21, 2006 - 12:48 PM
assalaam o alaikum
Quote: -We believes in the sources of religious knowledge that are beyond doubt.
Reply: -Have you ever ask help from Allah for that, pray to Allah wholeheartedly I am sure there will be no daubt after that.
Quote: -The views of the scholar’s will only are helpful in understanding something they cannot be considered binding without the arguments presented to substantiate them.
Reply: -Change your way of thinking towards them and try to realize that they have done the wonderful job.
Quote-It is only the word of the Prophet (pbuh) that has to be accepted without hesitation.
Reply: -What about the your hesitation in accepting Prophet (pbuh) words? Brother how I see this life is full of test from our creater. In every single day there are lots of tests waiting for us. All tests are not similar there is also Varity in them.
As far the Ahadith are concern these are not all as authentic as Quran is. This is what the test for us. The authenticity of Ahadith is already classified by the earlier schalors. If we will further dig into them a lot, I think this will be a big mistake. This might lead us to further errors. I don’t think this the right time for that, the time is gone we were not there at that time.
We have to realizes and appreciate the earlier peoples whom have done the wonder full job for preserving the Ahadith from corruption.
Quote:-The first and foremost things is to resolve the issue whether the word Sunnah connotes concepts, ideas beliefs or historical narratives therefore, i wouel request you kindly to:
1. Please explain with example from the classical Arabic that it does.
Reply: -Brother you have stuck in the literal meaning of Arabic word Sunnah.If you will take the literal meaning of Sunnah to defined it so you are doing a big mistake. These days if a contact has to sign between two companies so what they do they defined some words in the begining. They don’t depend on their literal meanings. As far as my study is concern Muslim has defined Sunnah as defined by Taqi Usmani Sahib in my first post and I see consensus among scholars on it. Some times even in Quran we can not take the literal meaning of every verse. There is one example of that.
But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter (17:72)
Here are some examples of Sunnah other than yours provided definition.
Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Mutarrif ibn Abdullah reported:Imran ibn Husayn was asked about a person who divorces his wife, and then has intercourse with her, but he does not call any witness to her divorce nor to her restoration. He said: You divorced against the Sunnah and took her back against the Sunnah. Call someone to bear witness to her divorce, and to her return in marriage, and do not repeat it. (Sunan Abudawud Book #12, Hadith #2181)
Narrated Amr ibn al-'As: Do not confuse us about his Sunnah. Ibn al-Muthanna said: The Sunnah of our Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) is that the waiting period of a slave-mother whose husband has died is four months and ten days. (Sunan Abudawud Book #12, Hadith #2301)
Narrated Tamim ad-Dari: Tamim asked: Apostle of Allah), what is the Sunnah about a man who accepts Islam by advice and persuasion of a Muslim? He replied: He is the nearest to him in life and in death. (SunanAbudawud Book #18, Hadith #2912)
2. How does the narrator (Hazrat Aaisha rta) take the word Sunnah in the following tradition:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported.: Halt at al-Abtah is not the Sunnah. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) halted there simply because it was easier for him to depart from there, when he left. (Muslim No: 1311)
Reply:-This action of Prophet (pbuh) is not being taken as a Sunnah ,the reason She already described.
If you will see the above there Ahadith so you will come to know that so many things which Prophet say in any occasion and when the matter occur so if one find Prophet sayings on that particular issue so one is bound to follow it depending on the nature of matter. So many of Prophet saying and action were to lets the people know that this is also permisible. Like one is sick and if he can not perform salat by standing so he can sit and perform.
Since Allah gave the authority to the Prophet that he can make things unlawful and can make things law full,so it’s a very important issue for a true Muslim.Certainly one would like to know what is permissible for him and what is not.The good source is Ahadith.Here one can see that Ahadith are the basic source of our Deen.
Quran means book of study,or book which peoples used to red so can we call human written books quran as well?The words are not that important the important is what we have to do in this world.How good we can follow the right path and where could we find that knowledge from.
The intellectual discussion on Quran and Sunnah or any effort of accruing knowledge of them will not be benefited unless the person is serious and committed to follow them and wish a desire to implement the knowledge in his life.If he don’t have any desire so all his effort of doing all his research will not be benefit to him.He only will get light from Quran and Sunnah depend on the thrust one have. |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, June 23, 2006 - 6:51 AM
quote:
What you have said above, it could your owm understanding but not the understanding of great scholars of Islam of any time.What actually you are saying that we should leave asdie all the Ahadith which Quran calling again and again to follow.The four great scholars of Islam has formed the four Medhabs and Ahadith have a very basic role on them.The fifth Medhab also based on Ahadith and they are called (Ahelay Hadees).
Assalam o Alaikum Brother Usmani,
There is a very interesting point in your above mentioned post... You have said that The four great scholars of Islam has formed the four Medhabs and Ahadith have a very basic role on them
Now this means that there are FOUR madhabs on the basis of AHADITH and if AHADITH are the BASIC source, then this implies that ALLAH has revealed 4 DIFFERENT religions to ONE person only. ( i.e. Beloved Prophet pbuh )
This is very confusing to me... How can ALLAH Almighty reveal FOUR religions to a SINGLE person at the SAME time. Please clarify that
Edited by: atifrafi on Friday, June 23, 2006 6:54 AM |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 6:14 AM
Assalam Alaikum Brother Atifrafi
Quote:-This is very confusing to me... How can ALLAH Almighty reveal FOUR religions to a SINGLE person at the SAME time. Please clarify that
Reply:-Brother What I mean by Four Medhabs is Four School of Thoughts or Four Fiqa. These are called as Fiqa Hanafi,Fiqa Shafai,Fiqa Humbali,Faqa Maliki.
I hope that it will be clear to you now.
Best regards, |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 8:02 AM
Brother Usmani,
Even FOUR School of thoughts means that there are FOUR different set of teachings revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (sws). He passed all FOUR set of teachings to people which finally became "four school of thoughts"... This is only possible if we agree that "Hadees" is a BASIC source in Islam and if its a BASIC source then there shouldn't be any difference just like there isn't any difference in Quran. Still there is NO room of FOUR different school of thoughts if AHADEETH are BASIC source because there shouldn't be any difference in BASICS as the religion revealed by the Almighty is only ONE. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:32 AM
Brother Atifrafi
There are no major difference amongst these four Medhabs,only the minor ones.These minor differences also mainly due to the different interpretation of Quran and Sunnah by these Great Myhadditheen.Ummah at large has the consensus on these Fours Methabs. |
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Tariq Hashmi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 2:00 PM
Have you ever ask help from Allah for that, pray to Allah wholeheartedly I am sure there will be no daubt after that.
I am sorry i could not understand what you mean by saying this.
What about the your hesitation in accepting Prophet (pbuh) words?
Now it comes to slander. When did anyone here say that they challenge the words of the Prophet (pbuh). I seek refuge of the Almighty from even thinking of that. I would request you brother not to be judgmental if you want any good for others.
Brother you have stuck in the literal meaning of Arabic word Sunnah.If you will take the literal meaning of Sunnah to defined it so you are doing a big mistake. These days if a contact has to sign between two companies so what they do they defined some words in the begining. They don’t depend on their literal meanings. As far as my study is concern Muslim has defined Sunnah as defined by Taqi Usmani Sahib in my first post and I see consensus among scholars on it. Some times even in Quran we can not take the literal meaning of every verse. There is one example of that.
But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter (17:72)
I think our debate needs to be stopped here. We have no common grounds to stand on. The point was very simple and can be communicated to every person in the world regardless of their language and culture. But here i have have failed. May Allah forgive me for this. My dear brother i have never said that all the words need to be taken literally. What i said is that we need to establish the usage of the word in the language of the Qur'an and the classical Arabic language. It is not the question of literal or not but that of usage in that language. I still do not expect myself to have made the point clear.
Narrated Imran ibn Husayn: Mutarrif ibn Abdullah reported:Imran ibn Husayn was asked about a person who divorces his wife, and then has intercourse with her, but he does not call any witness to her divorce nor to her restoration. He said: You divorced against the Sunnah and took her back against the Sunnah. Call someone to bear witness to her divorce, and to her return in marriage, and do not repeat it. (Sunan Abudawud Book #12, Hadith #2181)
Narrated Amr ibn al-'As: Do not confuse us about his Sunnah. Ibn al-Muthanna said: The Sunnah of our Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) is that the waiting period of a slave-mother whose husband has died is four months and ten days. (Sunan Abudawud Book #12, Hadith #2301)
Narrated Tamim ad-Dari: Tamim asked: Apostle of Allah), what is the Sunnah about a man who accepts Islam by advice and persuasion of a Muslim? He replied: He is the nearest to him in life and in death. (SunanAbudawud Book #18, Hadith #2912)
I am sorry to say that if the word Sunnah in these narratives refers to sayings or an act of the Prophet (pbuh) (i mean an act done sometime during his life i do not mean practice) then we need to mourn over our understanding of any language at all.
2. How does the narrator (Hazrat Aaisha rta) take the word Sunnah in the following tradition:
'A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported.: Halt at al-Abtah is not the Sunnah. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) halted there simply because it was easier for him to depart from there, when he left. (Muslim No: 1311)
Reply:-This action of Prophet (pbuh) is not being taken as a Sunnah ,the reason She already described.
Then it definitely contradicts your understanding of what Sunnah is (Sunnah to you covers every act the Prophet (pbuh) did, said or approved of).
May God give us the ability to understand what is truth and grant us the courage to uphold it.
Regards,
Tariq |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 8:59 AM
quote:
There are no major difference amongst these four Medhabs,only the minor ones.These minor differences also mainly due to the different interpretation of Quran and Sunnah by these Great Myhadditheen.Ummah at large has the consensus on these Fours Methabs.
This is what I am saying.. these differences are only because of one reason... there are diiferent narratives available in Ahadeeth on some particular method. Please make one thing very clear that about Quran, there may be some difference in understanding but in Ahadeeth the difference is due to "difference of narratives"
For example, the way of offering prayer is different in these FOUR madhabs and everyone knows that all methods are available in Ahadeeths.... Brother nowhere in Quran there is any such difference where Quran provides 2 different opinions/ways about ONE thing.
If Ahadeeth are BASIC source, then why there are different ways of offering prayers are narrated in different ahadeeth.... This is NOT the difference of understanding rather its due to conflictinf narratvies...
And one more point, Can you give me ONLY 5 such points, which are explained in the Quran and still there is a difference amongst the 4 great scholors.... This clearly negates your stance that these madhabs are dur to the "different interpretation of Quran" Rather these are due to the DIFFERENT NARRATIVES available in the BOOKS OF AHADEETH. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:48 PM
Dear Brother Atifrafi
Quote: -For example, the way of offering prayer is different in these FOUR madhabs and everyone knows that all methods are available in Ahadeeths....
Reply: -Agreed, But if there are four different ways of offering salat are found in Ahadith so its means that Prophet has offered salat with this four little bit different ways. What is the problem with that?Keep in mind that it is already established from Quran that we have to obey Prophet(pbuh).Is there any other source beside ahadith to obey Him?
On the other side If we accept your argument and follow the Quran only, then what will hepend, Quran is silent in providing detail procedure of offering salat, Quran even don’t tell how many times a day we should pray. This is more or less applies in every form of Ibadah both on Hukokul Allah and Hukokul Ibaad.
The only source which making us able to performed (Hukokul Allah and Hukokul Ibaad), how could this source would not be the basic source of religion.
Quote:-If Ahadeeth are BASIC source, then why there are different ways of offering prayers are narrated in different ahadeeth.... This is NOT the difference of understanding rather its due to conflictinf narratvies...
Reply: -You has no other choice to accept these conflicting narratives or do you? Tell me the alternative. Believe me this is the Satan work who creating doubts in our minds, the scale of problem is not that serious as one think it is. |
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atifrafi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 6:57 AM
Quote:-
Agreed, But if there are four different ways of offering salat are found in Ahadith so its means that Prophet has offered salat with this four little bit different ways. What is the problem with that?Keep in mind that it is already established from Quran that we have to obey Prophet(pbuh).Is there any other source beside ahadith to obey Him?
Reply:-
Now you are again changing the point of discussion. What I was referring was only that there SHOULD NOT be any difference in BASIC source Like Quran. If a Hadeeth is CONFIRMED as Prophet's (sws) saying, then its MUST be followed.
Quote:-
On the other side If we accept your argument and follow the Quran only, then what will hepend, Quran is silent in providing detail procedure of offering salat, Quran even don’t tell how many times a day we should pray. This is more or less applies in every form of Ibadah both on Hukokul Allah and Hukokul Ibaad.
Reply:-
Now, here comes the Sunnah.... A BASIC source passed to us through the Ijma and complete details are available in Sunnah.... Have you ever thought that why Quran did not provide details of Salaat and other Ibadah.... Because it was in practice at that time and everybody knew whats Salaat is. Ahadeeth are the explanation of Quran and Sunnah.... Its like a Tafseer of Quran, Quran is the BASIC source and Tafseer is NOT... Same is the case here, QURAN and SUNNAH are BASIC Source and AHADEETH are there to support and explain the BASIC sources. |
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JunaidHasan
GERMANY
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Posted - Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 12:57 PM
I think there’s nothing left in this discussion but mere argue. The viewpoints of both the parties are very clear. Now it should be left upon the readers whom they want to agree with.
I wonder, why do we want everyone to follow what we think is correct? We should accept this reality that there can never be one and only one correct viewpoint. We, human beings, will always differ in our opinions. You know, even the exalted companions of the Prophet (SAW) had differed among each other. I think we seriously need to change this attitude (which has been prevailing in the sub-continent for long) of getting violent whenever we hear a little different viewpoint to our liking. We should honestly present our viewpoint with peace and let others do it too. If you think the other person is a liar, please be patient as Allah has declared in the Qur’an whenever truth is hurled against the falsehood, the falsehood perishes, for the falsehood by its nature is bound to be perished... Most importantly, we should tell ourselves it’s not necessary that we have to back and agree with the viewpoints of the elders of our own family or the ones that our elders prefer to follow; for our elders might be wrong and someone else be correct!
Thank you.
Sincerely,
Junaid |
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