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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 12:53 PM
Dear Junaid Hasan
You wrote: -What about something like Sufism? Is it a Sunnah? If not the majority but half of the Ummah has backed it almost in all ages.
Reply: -Could you explained which Sufism or name the persons so I can comments on it.
I wrote, “It is very sevior blame on me, I think you are habitual to blame others.”
You wrote:-I presented the text of the Hadith as presented in Sahi Bukhari. It was quite different than the same Hadith that you tried to quote. Until you’d explain to me that difference and also provide me the correct references of the other Ahadith that you presented with the wrong references, I’d not accept any Hadith from you.
Reply: -Brother we need to have trust on eachothers, we can do mistake but we won’t lie to eachother. As far as this issue is concerned please keep in touch with me until I show you that it was misunderstanding or miscommunication b/w u nothing more than that. Here I am giving you the address of web-site from where I used to quote the Ahadith.Search with the references as provided by me.
http://www.searchtruth.com/
You wrote: -Wish you had presented a Hadith that fulfills the condition of being “matwatir” instead of calling the other people wrong.
Reply: -Have a look on the followings.
(1) Mutawâtir: It is a hadîth narrated in each era, from the days of the Holy Prophet () up to this day by such a large number of narrators that it is impossible to reasonably accept that all of them have colluded to tell a lie.
This kind is further classified into two sub-divisions:
(a) Mutawâtir in words: It is a hadîth whose words are narrated by such a large number as is required for a mutawâtir, in a manner that all the narrators are unanimous in reporting it with the same words without any substantial discrepancy.
(b) Mutawâtir in meaning: It is a mutawâtir hadîth which is not reported by the narrators in the same words. The words of the narrators are different. Sometimes even the reported events are not the same. But all the narrators are unanimous in reporting a basic concept which is common in all the reports. This common concept is also ranked as a mutawâtir concept.
For example, there is a saying of the Holy Prophet (pbuh),
Whoever intentionally attributes a lie against me, should prepare his seat in the Fire.
This is a mutawâtir hadîth of the first kind, because it has a minimum of seventy-four narrators. In other words, seventy-four companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) have reported this hadîth at different occasions, all with the same words.
The number of those who received this hadîth from these companions is many times greater, because each of the seventy-four companions has conveyed it to a number of his pupils. Thus, the total number of the narrators of this hadîth has been increasing in each successive generation, and has never been less than seventy-four. All these narrators, who are now hundreds in number, report it in the same words without even a minor change. This hadîth is, therefore, mutawâtir by words, because it cannot be imagined reasonably that such a large number of people have colluded to coin a fallacious sentence in order to attribute it to the Holy Prophet ().
I said, “Scholars like Maudoodi sahib or Hakim-ul-Ummat Maulana Ashraf Ali Thanvi Sahib are born in centuries. They had the command over all aspect of deen. No all scholars can be like them.”
You wrote:-It is your own perception that I do not agree with. If you’d start this topic now, it may go longer than the discussion we’ve had about the Sunnah.
Reply:-Later I will answer it.
Thanks
Allah Hafiz |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 4:28 PM
You wrote :- See the viewpoint of him about the directive of keeping the cloth higher than the ankles. For more details, please start watching the program: Live with Javed Ahmad Ghamidi at Aaj TV on every Sunday 12:10 pm (specially Dars-e-Hadith).
Reply:-There is also a disagreement between the classical scholars on the issue of keeping the clothes higher than ankles.The disagreement is in the interpretation of the hadith not with the concept that an authenctic hadith is an independent source of shariah.Here is the hadith :-
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “Allah will not look favorably towards a person who drags his clothes on the ground out of false pride.” Upon hearing this one of his foremost Companions, namely Abu Bakr, enquired, “But I am one of those whose clothes fall below my ankles.” Then the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) said, “You are not doing it out of pride!”
My islamic studies professor Qalb-e-Bashir Khawar Butt along with others who hold the opinion that keeping clothes above ankles in neither obligatory nor sunnah base their opinion on the interpreation of the words “You are not doing it out of pride!”
Others say that the exemption was specifically for Abu Bakar and it is sin for others to keep their clothes hanging below ankles.
The difference between the two is in interpreation.If the hadith were like this :-
The Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is reported to have said, “Allah will not look favorably towards a person who drags his clothes on the ground out of false pride.”
then all the classical scholars would have been in agreement that wearing clothes below ankles is obligatory because then there wouldn't have been any point of disagreement and all of the classical scholars agree on this point that a GENERAL command or forbiddance from the prophet(pbuh) found in an authentic hadith ,which is not found in Quran, is an independent command/forbiddance of religion.
M
You wrote :-Who says that the Quran is not used to check the authenticity of a Hadit.? Muhaddaseen used to compare a Hadith’s text with three things:
a) Quran
b) Established Sunnah
c) Common sense and established facts
“ilm-ad-diraya” is the branch of the Islamic Science which deals with this kind of examination of a Hadith.
Reply :- The following is the point where I think no classical scholar will agree completely:-
Some important requisites for the understanding of Ahadith
* Need to understand and interpret Ahadith in light of the Qur'an and the Sunnah, which are the ultimate and absolute sources of religious information.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=248
that's because the hadith is checked for its authenticity by funn-e-riwayah and if found in clash with Quran and established Sunnah and other authentic ahadith is rejected otherwise if it adds to or changes the directive of Quran (not established Sunnah though) it is accepted.
Examples:-
Stoning for adultery whereas the Quran has prescribed lashes for both fornication and adultery.
Punishment of apostasy for general people.
Prayer of travelling,etc...
They may differ in their details,application,etc.. |
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JunaidHasan
GERMANY
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Posted - Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 6:19 AM
ONE:
Usmani wrote, “Here I am giving you the address of web-site from where I used to quote the Ahadith.”
The exalted companions of the Prophet (SAW) used to take a great care in presenting his (SAW) sayings to anyone and look at us, we don’t even bother to confirm a Hadith in the book to which it is referred.
Doesn’t matter where you took a Hadith from, when you quote it from your name somewhere, the responsibility falls on you if there’s any shortcoming in it.
TWO:
Usmani wrote, “This is a mutawâtir hadîth of the first kind, because it has a minimum of seventy-four narrators. In other words, seventy-four companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) have reported this hadîth at different occasions, all with the same words.
The number of those who received this hadith from these companions is many times greater, because each of the seventy-four companions has conveyed it to a number of his pupils.”
I understand what you mean but still I have doubts whether the Muhaddaseen, when got a so called “Matwatir Hadit”, got it from hundreds of narrators.
THREE:
Usnami wrote, “It never hapened in last 1400 years, Sunni Muslims who follow the way of Sahaba were always in majority.”
I strongly object to this very statement. Why do we think that we’re always right and others always wrong? And who has given us this name: “Sunni”? The Prophet (SAW), Qur’an or whom??
FOUR:
Shaan wrote, “There is also a disagreement between the classical scholars on the issue of keeping the clothes higher than ankles.The disagreement is in the interpretation of the hadith not with the concept that an authenctic hadith is an independent source of shariah.”
Shaan, we’re very close to my point now. Of course, Qur’an forbids us from the pride. So, this very Hadith elaborates or explains the Quranic directive. And look, the Prophet (SAW) himself has told why he’s ordering to keep the cloth higher - for eliminating the element of pride. This is what I was referring to. The teacher, Ghamidi, links a Hadith with the Qur’an and Sunnah.
But hm, I think you’re right. I can agree with you on this point now. But, I wonder if the classical scholars take the Hadith independent of the Qur’an. I’m really not sure about it. Maybe we need to define the word: “classical”.
Look Shaan, we have so much of “narrow-mindedness” especially in the sub-continent. This may be irrelevant but still I want to mention it as I think it is a very important fact. The scholars of the sub-continent hide many concepts of the older scholars because they do not match with them. I’d just give you a few examples. In “Ehya-e-O’loom” Imam Ghazali (RA) writes that no one can say that music is prohibited. Similarly, both of the exalted students of Imam Shafa’e along with Imam Tibrani (RA) think that it is correct if a woman leads the prayer. Such concepts seem ridiculous to us because our scholars do not reveal them to us. Different scholars adopt different methods and concepts to interpret something that is why it is very difficult to declare a practice as classical or personal.
FIVE:
Shaan wrote, “My islamic studies professor Qalb-e-Bashir Khawar Butt along with others who hold the opinion that keeping clothes above ankles in neither obligatory nor sunnah base their opinion on the interpreation of the words “You are not doing it out of pride!””
So you’re from the University of Management & Technology. That’s a pleasure to know because I have graduated from there too and Professor Khawar Butt has been one of my grand teachers. He’s an extremely intelligent man from Maududi school of thought.
SIX:
Shaan wrote, “hadith is checked for its authenticity by funn-e-riwayah and if found in clash with Quran and established Sunnah and other authentic ahadith is rejected otherwise if it adds to or changes the directive of Quran (not established Sunnah though) it is accepted.”
Come on Shaan, please check this concept again. The Hadith can never overrule the directives of the Qur’an. I’m 100% sure about it. Such Ahadith have been seriously questioned which are thought to be in contradiction with the Quran. Our esteemed Teacher, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, has worked upon six of such Sahi Ahadith which apparently say something in addition to the Qur’anic directives and he has proved that there’s nothing additional in them and that they are in complete harmony with the Qur’an.
The problems of the examples you’ve quoted do not arise in our school of thought because: We believe that the general punishment of apostasy is not death. It is specific to the time of the Prophet (SAW) after “itmam-e-hujjat” – completion of the proof on the people that the Prophet (SAW) is the true Messenger of Allah. This Hadith is in complete harmony with the directives of Surah-e-Tauba. Similarly, first, the salah is purely from among the Sunnan, therefore, if its rakas are half in the traveling, it has got no contradiction, whatsoever, with the Qur’an. |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 7:11 AM
Junaid wrote :- Shaan, we’re very close to my point now. Of course, Qur’an forbids us from the pride. So, this very Hadith elaborates or explains the Quranic directive. And look, the Prophet (SAW) himself has told why he’s ordering to keep the cloth higher - for eliminating the element of pride. This is what I was referring to. The teacher, Ghamidi, links a Hadith with the Qur’an and Sunnah.
But hm, I think you’re right. I can agree with you on this point now. But, I wonder if the classical scholars take the Hadith independent of the Qur’an. I’m really not sure about it. Maybe we need to define the word: “classical”.
Reply : - I've never read,listened,seen or met any scholar who didn't take ahadith as an independent source of shariah until listening and reading Mr. Ghamidi's school of thought.All the other scholars I know of take a commandment and forbiddance in hadith as an independent and additional commandment/forbiddance from Allah UNLESS the commandment/forbiddance is already mentioned in Quran.
I had discussed the issue of music and stoning for adultery with Prof. Khawar Butt and he too thinks the same as other local scholars that ahadith are an independent source of shariah.
His thinking that there is no concept of taqlid in Islam,wearing cap or turban,wearing certain style of clothes,,having beard of fist length,keeping clothes higher than ankles, are not sunnah is because the prophet(pbuh) never made it part of religion as can be seen from ahadith.
Junaid wrote:- Come on Shaan, please check this concept again. The Hadith can never overrule the directives of the Qur’an. I’m 100% sure about it. Such Ahadith have been seriously questioned which are thought to be in contradiction with the Quran. Our esteemed Teacher, Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, has worked upon six of such Sahi Ahadith which apparently say something in addition to the Qur’anic directives and he has proved that there’s nothing additional in them and that they are in complete harmony with the Qur’an.
The problems of the examples you’ve quoted do not arise in our school of thought because: We believe that the general punishment of apostasy is not death. It is specific to the time of the Prophet (SAW) after “itmam-e-hujjat” – completion of the proof on the people that the Prophet (SAW) is the true Messenger of Allah. This Hadith is in complete harmony with the directives of Surah-e-Tauba. Similarly, first, the salah is purely from among the Sunnan, therefore, if its rakas are half in the traveling, it has got no contradiction, whatsoever, with the Qur’an.
Reply :- That's what I am saying that Mr. Ghamidi intelligently explains all the ahadith,in which there is commandment/forbiddance, in harmony with the directives of Quran and nature of man even if the hadith about the clothes above ankles had not contain the words “You are not doing it out of pride!”.
But all the other scholars I know (including Prof. Khawar Butt) see them as an additional directive.This is the point in the concept of Sunnah in which Ghamidi school of thought differs from others.
Note:- I am not talking here about contradiction of ahadith with Quran because all scholars agree that the hadith will be rejected if found contradictory to Quran,Sunnah ,authentic ahadith and established facts.
Consider the following :-
There is no difference of opinion amongst the scholars with regards to covering/non-covering of the ankles. All the scholars, regardless of their different schools of thought and differences in many issues, have no difference of opinion in this regard. They all unanimously agree that the length of the lower garment, i.e. the trousers/pants/izars etc. should be above the ankles for men. Thus it is forbidden for men to cover their ankles with their lower garments i.e. trousers/pants/izars etc. There are several authentic Ahadith to substantiate this ruling.
There may be few Muslims who tend to differ on the subject due to ignorance. They argue by saying ‘the Hadith says that anyone who drags the Izar out of pride and arrogance will be punished in the hereafter. Therefore we don’t drag the pants out of pride and arrogance’.
However, there are many Ahadith in which the Prophet has instructed in unambiguous words to wear the Izar above the ankles without mentioning the aspect of pride or arrogance. One of the Ahadith is as follows:
Narrated Abu Huraira
The Prophet said, "The part of an Izar which hangs below the ankles is in the Fire." (Sahih Bukhari, Vol. 7, Hadith no. 678)
In the Hadith quoted above, there is a general instruction to keep the trouser above the ankle, irrespective whether it is out of pride & arrogance or without pride & arrogance.
Moreover, can any human being claim to be as humble as the Prophet (pbuh)? Alhumdulillah, we Muslims believe that the Prophet (pbuh) was far more humble than anyone of us can ever be and he could never be as arrogant & proud as we can be at any given time. He was sent as a mercy (Al-Qur'an 21: 107) for all the creatures, yet he wore his lower garments above the ankles. Therefore we should obey the commandment of the Prophet (pbuh) in order to prosper in the hereafter.
(Dr. Zakir Naik's Islamic Research Foundation http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm) |
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JunaidHasan
GERMANY
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Posted - Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 11:51 AM
Shaan wrote, “I've never read,listened,seen or met any scholar who didn't take ahadith as an independent source of shariah until listening and reading Mr. Ghamidi's school of thought.All the other scholars I know of take a commandment and forbiddance in hadith as an independent and additional commandment/forbiddance from Allah UNLESS the commandment/forbiddance is already mentioned in Quran.”
You are talking out of your own experience and I know that you’re not wrong. But I’d also want to clarify that the Ghamidi school of thought comes from Islahi and Farahi school of thoughts. Both of the great scholars, Amin Ehsan Islahi and Hamid-ud-Din Farahi (RA) regarded Ahadith as an explanatory source.
Shaan wrote, “That's what I am saying that Mr. Ghamidi intelligently explains all the ahadith,in which there is commandment/forbiddance, in harmony with the directives of Quran and nature of man even if the hadith about the clothes above ankles had not contain the words “You are not doing it out of pride!”.”
I agree with you but please make sure that the Teacher Ghamidi doesn’t develop his viewpoint on the basis of one Hadith. He sees all the Ahadith on a particular topic to build his viewpoint about it. There are many reasons why he does so. One is that sometimes a Hadith quotes an incomplete saying of the Prophet (SAW) whereas the same Hadith when told by some other narrator explains the complete saying. The best example of it may be seen in Sahi Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Libas, Ahadith about the beard – one only tells that the Prophet (SAW) ordered the companions to cut short the moustache and grow the beard whereas the other tells the complete saying that the Prophet (SAW) ordered to do against the non-believers, cut short the moustache and let grow the beard.
Shaan wrote, “There is no difference of opinion amongst the scholars with regards to covering/non-covering of the ankles.”
Shaan, there’s a difference of opinion about it. Hafiz Ibrahim carried out a research work about this issue and he found out that the weaker Ahadith were severe whereas the more authentic ones were far moderate. I do not agree with esteemed Dr. Zakir in his interpretation because the Prophet (SAW) first made the “arrogant thought” very clear behind the very act. Secondly, generally in the Arab culture, as it was done out of the pride so it was necessary to eradicate this custom from among Arabs. Therefore, the Prophet (SAW) had to life up his cloth above the ankles in order to present a role model to everyone. Had he not done it himself, the wrong custom could not finish. Also, in this case, the non-believers could say to him that his own cloth were below the ankles, how come had he forbidden others. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 24, 2006 - 12:01 PM
Dear Shaan
You wrote: - Sorry but nowhere does any of the ahadith mention anything about four madhabs. It is saying refer to majority.
Reply: -The Ahadith says that follow the majority group, and ground reality is that the followers of these four medhabs and who ever beside them follow the Sunnah of Prophet (pbuh) and that of Sahabah, formed the majority. They formed the majority and they follow the Sunnah of Prophet and that of Sahabah.
You wrote: - and is also silent on which matters.
Reply: -This I have already explained in my earlier reply, that the any matter of religion, check my reply again please, if you think I am wrong in interpreting hadith, so please explain how I am wrong. Don’t repeat the question please.
You wrote: -You wrote: -Also the Quran says something else from what you interpret the ahadith.
"O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those charged with authority among you. If you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger if you do believe in Allah and the Last Day: that is best and most suitable for final determination."
(Al-Qur'an 4:59)
As mentioned in the verse quoted above, when people in authority, the rulers, leaders, imams and scholars differ amongst themselves, our Creator instructs us to look into the Qur'an and the authentic Ahadith for guidance.
Reply:-I have mentioned here the 7 nos. Ahadith exactly as our Creator instructing us in this verse.What is the problem.
You wrote: -The legitimacy, relevance and accuracy of the reasons and evidence provided by these people should be evaluated in the light of the Qur'an and the Sunnah. However, it should be borne in mind that infallibility belongs to Allah alone and a scholar, being a human, can make an error of judgement.
Reply:-Infallibility belongs to Allah and his Messengers,these seven Ahadith are not the words of any scholar but the words of Messenger(pbuh).
You wrote: -There is also disagreement in some matters within each madhab. Following is 1 example: -
Reply of Scholar: -What one does would depend partially on where one is.
Personally, I follow Abu Hanifa's own position, but let others take the other opinion.
My reply: - There is no disagreement as this clearly appears from his reply, only difference of opinion.
You wrote: -As you can see from above the answer of the scholar is based on evidence rather than statistics of who is in majority. It’s been more than 1400 years and no scholar in my knowledge has ever used statistics in Islam.
Reply: -These are the matters of fiqa there are differences of opinions amongs scholars but not disagreement. They respect the opposite’s opinion and never say that others opinion are wrong. Brother this is the known fact that at large these four madhabs are in harmony with each others and they respect each others position in the matters of fiqa.
You wrote:-:-Sorry but there is no word of sunni in those ahadith and also there is no agreed upon definition of Sunni.Some defined it in terms of politics that Abu Bakar(ra) was the first caliph.Others define it in terms of Aqeedah i.e. Asharis and Maturidis are sunnis.Still others define it in terms of taqleed of any 1 of 4 Imams,etc..Also each school of thought(deobandi,barelvi,ahl-e-hadtih) claims itself to be the true sunni and others misguided and deviant.
Reply: -There is only a small percentage who thinks like that. As far as my knowledge is concerned all these people are Sunni.In fact Hadith No.2 says
Hahith 2:- When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]
So (deobandi,barelvi,ahl-e-hadtih) follow the what this hadith says including the followers of 4 madhab all around the world.
Allah Hafiz |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 24, 2006 - 12:50 PM
Dear Junaid Hasan
ONE:
You wrote:- Doesn’t matter where you took a Hadith from, when you quote it from your name somewhere, the responsibility falls on you if there’s any shortcoming in it.
Reply: - How come without any prove you keep saying regarding the shortcoming in the ahadith provided by my self. What about yours provided ahadith here, how you are sure all your provided ahadith are correct? Check you end first before blaming others. If ahadith are going against yours prefixed thinking and if becoming deficults for you to accept them, so this yours problem. This is not fair you to blame me for that. I can not help you in this.
TWO:
You wrote:- I understand what you mean but still I have doubts whether the Muhaddaseen, when got a so-called “Matwatir Hadit”, got it from hundreds of narrators.
Reply: -First you ask me to show a hadith which fulfill the condition of mutawatir when I showed you but now you have some other problem, doubt in it. You need to find out what exactly your problem is. This is only your self can discover. I only can pray for you.
THREE:
I wrote “It never hapened in last 1400 years, Sunni Muslims who follow the way of Sahaba were always in majority.”
You wrote:-I strongly object to this very statement. Why do we think that we’re always right and others always wrong?
Reply: -The point in discussion was Sunni Muslims were always in majority. This is a reality, nothing to think about it. No question of right or wrong arises here.
Allah Hafiz
You wrote:-And who has given us this name: “Sunni”? The Prophet (SAW), Qur’an or whom?
Reply: -You tries to find out about that and once you know it, lets me know it. I thank to you in advanced.
Allah Hafiz |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 24, 2006 - 2:26 PM
You Wrote: -The Ahadith says that follow the majority group, and ground reality is that the followers of these four medhabs and who ever beside them follow the Sunnah of Prophet (pbuh) and that of Sahabah, formed the majority. They formed the majority and they follow the Sunnah of Prophet and that of Sahabah.
Reply :- So what's the problem then ? Why did you post the ahadith then ? The makers of this course are already in the majority according to the ahadith.
You wrote: -This I have already explained in my earlier reply, that the any matter of religion, check my reply again please, if you think I am wrong in interpreting hadith, so please explain how I am wrong. Don’t repeat the question please.
Reply :- What are the matters of religion in your mind ? Can you please explain.
You wrote:-I have mentioned here the 7 nos. Ahadith exactly as our Creator instructing us in this verse.What is the problem.
Reply:- The Quran is telling us to follow the prophet(sws) and you are saying to follow the majority ? So what are you saying is confusing.Because one should follow Quran and Sunnah as all the muslims for the past 1400 years and still today are doing.Muslims don't follow statistics they follow their Lord's Will.
You wrote:-Infallibility belongs to Allah and his Messengers,these seven Ahadith are not the words of any scholar but the words of Messenger(pbuh).
Reply:- But the interpretation of Ahadith is yours not of Allah and His Prophet(sws).And Dr. Zakir Naik's answer,which was in relation to the issue of veiling, affirms my point that we should follow Quran and Sunnah.He didn't use the understanding of majority on that issue rather he used Quran and Sunnah.
You wrote: - There is no disagreement as this clearly appears from his reply, only difference of opinion.
Reply :- Yes but you said that follow the majority in matters of religion.The difference of opinion has always remained in ummah but never did any one said that one should follow the majority.You are saying that one should follow the "understanding of Sunnah" of majority.The only majority then is Hanafis because the understanding of Sunnah when it comes to precision differs from madhab to madhab.The following explains my point :-
"But people are arguing while not understanding that one person is using sunnah according to one group of scholars’ definition and another person is using sunnah according to the definition of another group
of scholars."
www.lampostproductions.org
What's wrong with if this course has defined sunnah different from others.Others have also done this.
If you are saying that there is harmony then I don't see where there is not harmony between this course and other schools of thought.This course has only made more precise the understanding of sunnah as they see it.What's wrong with their understanding ?
You wrote: -These are the matters of fiqa there are differences of opinions amongs scholars but not disagreement. They respect the opposite’s opinion and never say that others opinion are wrong. Brother this is the known fact that at large these four madhabs are in harmony with each others and they respect each others position in the matters of fiqa.
Reply :- Who's saying that they disrespect each other's opinion ? You said that one should follow the majority in matters of religion and certainly these are matters of religion.If not,then I don't know what's your definition of "matters of religion" .
You wrote: -There is only a small percentage who thinks like that. As far as my knowledge is concerned all these people are Sunni.In fact Hadith No.2 says
Hahith 2:- When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]
So (deobandi,barelvi,ahl-e-hadtih) follow the what this hadith says including the followers of 4 madhab all around the world.
Reply :- And so are the makers of this course.But then again you wouldn't accept it because you are like those people who throw each other out of the main body using the same ahadith you quoted.
Edited by: Shaan on Monday, July 24, 2006 2:36 PM |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 24, 2006 - 8:42 PM
Dear Shaan
I Wrote: -The Ahadith says that follow the majority group, and ground reality is that the followers of these four medhabs and who ever beside them follow the Sunnah of Prophet (pbuh) and that of Sahabah, formed the majority. They formed the majority and they follow the Sunnah of Prophet and that of Sahabah.
You wrote :- So what's the problem then ? Why did you post the ahadith then ? The makers of this course are already in the majority according to the ahadith.
Reply:-Majority call athantic ahadith as Sunnah,but they don’t .Brother Tariq,Brother Ibrahim failed to show me a single schalor who have the same concept of Sunnah as this course presenting.Brother Junaid try his best but he aslo failed to produced a single schalor other than this web site’s schalors.
If you think only few hundreds peoples in this plant having this understaning of Sunnah as explained this course formed the majority.I then only mourn over on the aqil of you gentleman.
you wrote :- What are the matters of religion in your mind ? Can you please explain.
Reply:-Sunnah is a serious matter os religion.
I wrote:-I have mentioned here the 7 nos. Ahadith exactly as our Creator instructing us in this verse.What is the problem.
You wrote:- The Quran is telling us to follow the prophet(sws) and you are saying to follow the majority ? So what are you saying is confusing.Because one should follow Quran and Sunnah as all the muslims for the past 1400 years and still today are doing.Muslims don't follow statistics they follow their Lord's Will.
Reply:-That’s what exactly written in ahadith.See once again the ahadith.I only copy the words of ahadith.
I wrote:-Infallibility belongs to Allah and his Messengers,these seven Ahadith are not the words of any scholar but the words of Messenger(pbuh).
You wrote:- But the interpretation of Ahadith is yours not of Allah and His Prophet(sws).And Dr. Zakir Naik's answer,which was in relation to the issue of veiling, affirms my point that we should follow Quran and Sunnah.He didn't use the understanding of majority on that issue rather he used Quran and Sunnah.
Reply:-The word majority is wrriten in ahadith.So please follow Sunnah(ahadith) that’s what I showed you.
You wrote:-But people are arguing while not understanding that one person is using sunnah according to one group of scholars’ definition and another person is using sunnah according to the definition of another group
of scholars."
Reply:-yes one group of this web site.On the other side rest of the schalors of the world the vasy majority of them.
You wrote:-What's wrong with if this course has defined sunnah different from others.Others have also done this.
If you are saying that there is harmony then I don't see where there is not harmony between this course and other schools of thought.
Reply:- Few hundreds people are on one side and on the other side the vast majority of Muslims of the world.Is this called harmoney??????????????
You wrote:-This course has only made more precise the understanding of sunnah as they see it.What's wrong with their understanding ?
Reply:-You are too yung to understand this hole course.Take this course to your Profesor Khoker and lets him study it first, then he will tell you where this course would take you.
You wrote :- Who's saying that they disrespect each other's opinion ? You said that one should follow the majority in matters of religion and certainly these are matters of religion.If not,then I don't know what's your definition of "matters of religion" .
Reply:-I said follow the majority if there is a disagreement.But there no such thing like disagreement.
I wrote: -So (deobandi,barelvi,ahl-e-hadtih) follow the what this hadith says including the followers of 4 madhab all around the world.
You wrote:- And so are the makers of this course.But then again you wouldn't accept it because you are like those people who throw each other out of the main body using the same ahadith you quoted.
Reply:-You are wrong, I am not like those barelvi and Ahl-hadith to whom you mentioned earlier.Ahadith clearly saying.
Hahith 2:- When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]
The writer of this course called Sunnah(ahadith) the books of history and he further says (in my own words)without them the religon is complete.
Look at what the couse say and then look at the Prophet(pbuh) words.
Now you have to decide, who’s words you wish to follow.
Prophet(pbuh) or Tariq Hashmi
Allah Hafiz |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 24, 2006 - 11:09 PM
You wrote :-Majority call athantic ahadith as Sunnah,but they don’t .Brother Tariq,Brother Ibrahim failed to show me a single schalor who have the same concept of Sunnah as this course presenting.Brother Junaid try his best but he aslo failed to produced a single schalor other than this web site’s schalors.
If you think only few hundreds peoples in this plant having this understaning of Sunnah as explained this course formed the majority.I then only mourn over on the aqil of you gentleman.
Reply :- I think that those who follow 4 schools of thought,the ahl-e-hadith,these people and others who follow the path of prophet(sws) and his sahaba(ra) are the majority.If you think this is not majority then who are they ? Shias ?
One source for fuqaha for DERIVING rulings have been ahadith.The minority Imam Malik also used practice and rulings of Medinah people as a source which the other majority didn't.Imam Malik also took the practice of Medinah over some of the authentic ahadith.It is you who has to produce a single scholar in the world who exactly says the following line "ahadith are sunnah."Every scholar in the world knows what's the difference between a hadith and sunnah.
You worte:-Sunnah is a serious matter os religion.
You wrote:-I have mentioned here the 7 nos. Ahadith exactly as our Creator instructing us in this verse.What is the problem.
Reply:- Yes Sunnah is what the prophet(sws) left besides Quran.Any doubt about the seriousness of this matter ?
You wrote:-That’s what exactly written in ahadith.See once again the ahadith.I only copy the words of ahadith.
You wrote:-Infallibility belongs to Allah and his Messengers,these seven Ahadith are not the words of any scholar but the words of Messenger(pbuh).
Reply :- Sorry but you contradicted yourself by stating earlier in your posts:-
You wrote:- "If any one still have doubt,I will advised to him, to survey 100 Mosques and see what is their understaning of Sunnah is.You will know where majority standing with."
By this statement of yours I inferred that you were saying that one should follow the majority.
And later you wrote :-So "(deobandi,barelvi,ahl-e-hadtih) follow the what this hadith says including the followers of 4 madhab all around the world."
sure the ahl-e-hadith are in majority.Iam shocked.You'll say that they fit in the hadith of the prophet.That's what Iam saying also that the makers of this course also fit in the hadith.They are not in majority in the group of majority in matters related to the concept of sunnah on a certain point but nonetheless they are part of majority like the ahl-e-hadith are even if they are less than ahl-e-hadith.
My Reply :- I advise you to survey 100 mosques and see what they say about triple talaq in 1 stand.You will know where the majority is standing,
Alos ask them the following questions :-
Minimum Beard's lenght:- They will say it's forbidden to trim the beard which is less than 1 fist.A person commits sin if he does that.The sunnah beard is 1 fist length.(The shafii minority doesn't follow the sunnah of majority Hanafi as they don't consider it sunnah.You can survey the mosques.So therefore one should follow the sunnah of keeping beard of 1 fist length because the majority is on that path and leave the minority Shafii school)
Wearing Turban is Sunnah :- You can survey 100 mosques and they'll tell you its sunnah.You can ask salafi(ahl-e-hadith scholars of Saudia Arabia and they'll reply its only a cultural thing.The majority are the 4 schools of thought in this issue.
Praying Daily Supereogatory prayers:- You can survey 100 mosques and ask them what is the importance of confirmed sunnah(sunnah muakkadah).They'll say its highly recommended and if a person leaves them without any reason its a sin.(The minority of other schools of thought say that its not a sin).
The Issue of Triple Divorce :- Survey 100 mosques and ask them that if a man says 3 talaqs to his wife in one stand will the relation be cancelled ? They'll say yes and that the wife will be haram on him after this.They will all say the ahl-e-hadith are deviant and abandoning the path of the sahaba(ra).You can survey this if you don't believe me(The minority ahl-e-hadith say that it only counts as 1 talaq not 3 and the wife can stay).
Survey the ahl-e-hadith scholars and they'll tell you that its against sunnah to pray with one's arms left aside oneself like the Malikis do in their prayers.Survey all other mosques and they'll tell you its not against sunnah.You can see where the majority stands.
There are many more examples like this.So you see who is in the majority here.Do you still doubt the ahadith and claim that ahl-e-hadith and 3 other schools of thought are amongst majority ? I can only mourn on your aqil.
You wrote:-The word majority is wrriten in ahadith.So please follow Sunnah(ahadith) that’s what I showed you.
Reply :- Iam already following the majority which consists of 4 schools of thought,ahl-e-hadith,this school of thought and others who are on the path of prophet(sws) and his sahaba(ra).So it is you who is not following the ahadith.So please follow them..
I wrote:-But people are arguing while not understanding that one person is using sunnah according to one group of scholars’ definition and another person is using sunnah according to the definition of another group
of scholars."
You wrote:-yes one group of this web site.On the other side rest of the schalors of the world the vasy majority of them.
Reply:- So you deny the Maliki scholar Ustadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali knowledge.I'll paste you his bio and also the link from where I posted the above statement of his regarding different usage of the word of sunnah according to different group of scholars.
Bio of Ustadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali
Ustaadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali – born on December 6, 1972 - began the study of Arabic and Islamic Studies around the age of 17. For the next 7 years or so he would continue his studies in the US under the instruction of a number of teachers in the Philadelphia area.
About 5 of those years of study were spent at the Quba Instituteof Arabic and Islamic Studies under the tutelage of ImamAnwar bin Nafea Muhaimin and his brother Anas bin Nafea Muhaimin focused primarily on the study of the Arabic language and Tajweed (Qur'anic Recitation).
Anwar Muhaimin is the director of the Quba Institute, andis believed to be the first American born Haafiz of Qur'an having completed the memorization of the Holy Book at the age of 15 in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. He is also a graduate of the University of Medina's Faculty of Language. His brother Anas is the AssistantDirector of the institute who also spent his youth studying in the Kingdom having completed the elementary, junior high, and high school curricula of the Kingdom, in addition to a rigorous study of the Qur'an and Tajweed.
Ustaadh Abdullah excelled at his studies with the Muhaimin Brothers and was considered the prize study of the Institute.
He also had the opportunity to improve his listening skills by attending the Institute of Arabic and Islamic Sciences in America of Fairfax, Virginia during the summer months of the years 1995 and 1996 on weekends.
Also during this time, Ustaadh Abdullah had the good fortune of studying with Dr. Khalid Blankinship, Professor ofHistory and Religion at Temple University. Abdullah attended his graduate lectures on Intro to Islam and the Fundamentals of Islamic Jurisprudence on the university campus. He also attended private sessions with Dr. Blankinship in his office wherein they studied some ancient Arabic texts such as portions of Ibn Ishaaq's Seerah, and the Risaalah of Ibn Abee Zaid Al-Qairawaanee (Maalikee Fiqh).
As a result of the close relationship formed between the two, Abdullah was instructed by the Dr. to further his studies in the city of Fez, Morocco at the ancient Al-Qarawiyeen University,which rivals Al-Azhar University in being the oldest university in the Islamic world. So with the help of Dr. Blankinship, Abdullah became the first American to attend and graduate from the University of Al- Qarawiyeen's Faculty of Shariah in the year 2001 when he completed a four-year degree.
Most of Abdullah's studies were not spent in the ancient-traditional university. Rather, they were done in the modern-style Islamic university of Al-Qarawiyeen. But, since he refused to limit his self to the curriculum of the modern university – as was the case when he was in America, Abdullah made sure he would receive his share of the study of the traditional books of Islam with a few of the traditional `ulamaa of Morocco.
Amongst the teachers and scholars that Abdullah was fortunate enough to benefit from at the modern university are the following:
Dr Abdullah Ghaazeewee, Professor of Usool Al-Fiqh. Abdullah developed a very close relationship with him, due to his kindness, decorum, and for assisting Abdullah in not just his student life, but also his personal and public life. Abdullah also privately studied the text of Al-Murshid Al-Mu'een (Fiqh Portion) withhim, as well as the Ajurroomeeyah (Arabic Grammar). Abdullah alsoattended his lectures offered at one of the local Daar Al-Qur'an related to the study of books such as Kitaabul-Kaafee of Ibn Abdil-Barrand Al- Ma'oonah of Qaadee Abdul-Wahhaab Al-Baghdaadee.
Ustaadh Muhammad As-Sarraar, Professor of Fiqhul-Hadeeth. Abdullah also had the opportunity to attend the beautiful lectures of Ustaadh Muhammad As-Sarraar who studied with the descendants of the famed Al-Ghamaaree As-Siddeeqee family of hadeeth scholars.
Dr Muhammad Abdul-Wahhaab Abyaat, SupervisingProfessor of Graduate and Undergraduate Research and Teacher of Qur'anic Tafseer. He also studied Ahkaamul-Qur'an of Qaadee Aboo Bakribnul-`Arabee with Dr Muhammad Abyaat.
Ustaadh Muhammad `Alamee, Professor of Usool Al-Fiqh. Abdullah also studied Usool Al-Fiqh with Ustaadh Muhammad `Alamee.
Sheikh Ahmad Zweetin, Professor of Fiqhul-Hadeeth. He was also fortunate to benefit from studies with Sheikh Ahmad Zweetin who is also one of the traditional scholars of the old Al-Qarawiyeen University where he teaches Tafseerul-Qur'an.
Dr. Hasan `Azoozee, Professor of Uloomul-Qur'an. Abdullahalso benefited from the beautiful lectures of Dr. Hasan `Azoozee.
As for those Abdullah benefited from at the traditional university, they are:
Sheikh Muhammad At-Ta'weel, Muftee, Scholar, and Professor of Usool Al-Fiqh. Abdullah was successful at developing a close relationship with one of the biggest scholars in Morocco today by the name of Muhammad At-Ta'weel. He is known to be a master of the sciences of `Aqeedah and Usool Al-Fiqh. Abdullah regularly attended his lectures in Usool Al-Fiqh wherein he taught the famous book of Imam Ibnus-Subkee, Jam'ul-Jawaami'. He also had privateclasses with him related to fiqh (viz. Al-Murshid Al-Mu'een).
Sheikh Muhammad Al-Ghaazee Husainee, Grand Muftee of Morocco and Professor of Al-Fiqh Al-Muqaaran. Abdullah was also blessed to benefit from some of the lectures in Comparative Fiqh given by the Grand Muftee of Morocco, Al-Ghaazee Husainee. The text studied was IbnRushd’s Bidaayah Al-Mujtahid wa Nihaayah Al-Muqtasid.
Sheikh ‘Abdul-Hayy Al-`Amraawee, Scholar and Teacher of Arabic Language. Sheikh ‘Abdul-Hayy Al-`Amraawee is considered a master of the Arabic language as well as one of the most lively teachers of the subject, despite already exceeding the age of 70. Abdullah developed a very good relationship with him, and spent much time in his presence.
Sheikh Muhammad Ar-Roogee, Muftee and Professor of UsoolAl-Fiqh. Abdullah also benefited from the lectures of Dr. Muhammad Ar-Roogee on Ibnus-Subkee's book, Jam'ul-Jawaami'. Dr. Roogee isone of the most renowned scholars of Morocco.
Ustaadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali has spent a great deal of focus on understanding the science of Usool Al-Fiqh and `Aqeedah. As a result his Bachelor's thesis was entitled "Al-Qaulul-Faslul-Mubeen fit- Ta'weel baina `Ulamaai Usoolil-Fiqh wa Usoolid-Deen" (The Clear Decisive Pronouncement Regarding Interpretation between the Scholars of Usoolul-Fiqh and Usoolud-Deen).
http://lamppostproductions.org/bios_abdullah_bin_hamid_ali.shtml
The statement which you are denying :-
http://lamppostproductions.org/SunnaBida.pdf
You wrote:- Few hundreds people are on one side and on the other side the vast majority of Muslims of the world.Is this called harmoney??????????????
Reply :- What other side are you talking about ? The other side is also not a vast majority for your kind information.There is this side,that side and then that side,etc...So you tell me ,is this called harmony ???
You wrote:-You are too yung to understand this hole course.Take this course to your Profesor Khoker and lets him study it first, then he will tell you where this course would take you.
Reply:- My professor has already admired Mr. Ghamidi along with other scholars in 1 of his lectures and also his concept of Sunnah is different from the local traditionalist.The locals say that wearing turban,certain style of clothes and clothes above ankles are sunnah.He doesn't agree with them.He's from Maududi school of thought.Also Me. Ghmaidi was also from Jamat-e-Islami then after he left it for ideological disputes with the jamat.
You wrote:-I said follow the majority if there is a disagreement.But there no such thing like disagreement.
Reply :- There is no such thing like disagreement ? LOL You need to get out and survey seriously.Then you'll find how much there is disagreement.
Definition of disagreement :- failure to agree about something: the fact of having or expressing a different opinion and failing to agree about something
Definition of agree :- be in accord: to have the same opinion about something as somebody else
Microsoft® Encarta® 2006. © 1993-2005 Microsoft Corporation. All rights reserved.
You wrote: -So (deobandi,barelvi,ahl-e-hadtih) follow the what this hadith says including the followers of 4 madhab all around the world.
I wrote:- And so are the makers of this course.But then again you wouldn't accept it because you are like those people who throw each other out of the main body using the same ahadith you quoted.
You wrote:-You are wrong, I am not like those barelvi and Ahl-hadith to whom you mentioned earlier.Ahadith clearly saying.
Hahith 2:- When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]
The writer of this course called Sunnah(ahadith) the books of history and he further says (in my own words)without them the religon is complete.
Look at what the couse say and then look at the Prophet(pbuh) words.
Now you have to decide, who’s words you wish to follow.
Prophet(pbuh) or Tariq Hashmi
Reply:- Here is what they state :-
Sunnan (plural of Sunnah) are practical activities and these have been transferred and established by the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), as part of the practices of God's religion, through practical demonstration to his Companions. From the companions, these practices have been transmitted uninterrupted through successive generations of Muslims with consensus (Ijma) and practical perpetuation (tawaatur) to date. The Sunnah and the Qur'an are equally authentic. They are both delivered to us through the same source i.e. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). They have reached us through the same mechanism of history (i.e. verbal and practical perpetuation and consensus of the Muslim Ummah). The Qur'an has reached us by verbal (documentary) transmission whilst the Sunnah by practical transmission. It is within these two that the entire basic corpus of Islam is preserved.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=article&aid=248
See what the prophet(sws) hadith says and what they say.If you still think this is wrong then you are denying what the prophet(sws) said.
Its upto you wether you follow your desires and be like those stupid scholars and people who throw ahl-e-hadith out of sunnis .I see no difference between you and them.Both ignore the ahadith of the prophet(sws).
Now you have to decide which path to follow
Prophet(sws) or Your whims and desires.
The choice is yours
Edited by: Shaan on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:07 AM
Edited by: Shaan on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 1:11 AM |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 24, 2006 - 11:44 PM
To summarize the whole issue about the 7 ahadith you posted here is my view:-
1). The muslim ummah will split into 73 groups.
2). Only 1 group will be on the right path
3). That 1 group is the one who will be on the path of prophet(sws) and his sahaba(ra)
4). This group will be the largest group.of the muslims.
Nowhere in the ahadith is it said what you are trying to say.
Edited by: Shaan on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 8:25 AM |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 12:49 PM
Dear Shaan
You wrote: - I think that those who follow 4 schools of thought, the ahl-e-hadith, these people and others who follow the path of prophet (sws) and his sahaba (ra) are the majority.
Reply: -That’s what I am saying, go back and refer to my replies.
You wrote: -. It is you who has to produce a single scholar in the world who exactly says the following line "ahadith are Sunnah.
Reply:-I have already provided Taqi Usmani Sahib’ definition of Sunnah, see in my opening post.
You wrote."Every scholar in the world knows what's the difference between a hadith and sunnah.
Reply: -Yes there is diffrence. But how many scholars says that without ahadith deen is complete?.Your own words in favor of this course have no value.
Quote from the course:-
The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'a#n
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved
I worte: -Sunnah is a serious matter of religion.
I wrote:-I have mentioned here the 7 nos. Ahadith exactly as our Creator instructing us in this verse. What is the problem.
You wrote: - sure the ahl-e-hadith are in majority.I am shocked.You'll say that they fit in the hadith of the prophet.That's what Iam saying also that the makers of this course also fit in the hadith.They are not in majority in the group of majority in matters related to the concept of sunnah on a certain point but nonetheless they are part of majority like the ahl-e-hadith are even if they are less than ahl-e-hadith.
Reply:-The writer of this course took out ahadith from Sunnah,it’s a very serious change in the religion. By following this course one will separate him self from the majority (Sunnu Muslim). The word Sunni is stand for follower of Ahadith it self.
You wrote: - I advise you to survey 100 mosques and see what they say about triple talaq in 1 stand. You will know where the majority is standing,
Reply:-Again you raising the same point which I already answer. It is matter of fiqa.
I wrote: -The word majority is written in ahadith. So please follow Sunnah (ahadith) that’s what I showed you.
You wrote :- I am already following the majority which consists of 4 schools of thought,ahl-e-hadith,this school of thought and others who are on the path of prophet(sws) and his sahaba(ra).So it is you who is not following the ahadith.So please follow them..
Reply: -How can you follow two different concepts at one time. I am not the one who have any problem with ahadith, take the example of 7 ahadith, its you who are not ready to accept them, it seems from yours replies.
I wrote: -yes one group of this web site. On the other side rest of the scholars of the world the vast majority of them.
You wrote:- So you deny the Maliki scholar Ustadh Abdullah bin Hamid Ali knowledge.I'll paste you his bio and also the link from where I posted the above statement of his regarding different usage of the word of sunnah according to different group of scholars.
Reply:-I did not deny it and I said before and I said again that he has provided very use full information of different conation of word Sunnah.But he is not defining Sunnah,as defined in the course here.
I wrote: -You are too young to understand this whole course. Take this course to your Professor Khoker and lets him study it first, then he will tell you where this course would take you.
You wrote:- My professor has already admired Mr. Ghamidi along with other scholars in 1 of his lectures and also his concept of Sunnah is different from the local traditionalist.The locals say that wearing turban,certain style of clothes and clothes above ankles are sunnah.He doesn't agree with them.He's from Maududi school of thought.Also Me. Ghmaidi was also from Jamat-e-Islami then after he left it for ideological disputes with the jamat.
Reply:- I have already shown here how Maudoodi Sahib see the Sunnah .See it once again carefully.
Quote from the book of Maulana Maudoodi Sahib(RA)
(Sunnat Ki Aaeini Haisiyat)
There were known sunnah which were implemented from the Masjid to homes, in the market places, in the courts of law, at the Government level, international politics all the departments of public affairs have been implemented in the life of Prophet (pbuh). Later on from the time of Kulfa-e-Rashadeen till this era, there is no gape
Besides these known Sunnah there were another kind of Sunnah, which were not famous and not familiar in the society in the Prophet (pbuh)life. Which in various time periods and which were based on, like the known sunnah on rulings, sayings, speeches, approvals and to witness the actions were known by some individuals and these sunnah were unknown commonly in the society. These Sunnah were spread within various peoples. The ummah has started to collect these Sunnah from those individual right after the death of Prophet (pbuh).
People from all walks of life were very keen to know the Sunnah of Prophet (pbuh)before deciding and before taking any action of their routine problems by their own in their circle. Before deciding their own, they wanted to know that there may be some commands already given by Prophet (pbuh) on that,so they must follow them.
Looking at this need, they search all those, whom have some knowledge of Sunnah.Those who have this knowledge, they also felt the to convey this knowledge of Sunnah to others is essential.
This is the starting point of Ahadiths, which started from 11 Hijra to third and forth century to provide these unknown Sunnah to the ummah. Almost all the efforts to corrupt them were made unsuccessful.
Have you seen it.Ask brother Tariq to follow it then and revised this course in the light of this course.Other wise don’t talk about Maudoodi sahib any more and don’t think that your professor Khoker will approved this course.
____________________________________________
Iwrote:-I said follow the majority if there is a disagreement.But there no such thing like disagreement.
You wrote :- There is no such thing like disagreement ? LOL You need to get out and survey seriously.Then you'll find how much there is disagreement.
Reply:-I am still not agree on it. Even having these differences among them they are in harmony with each other. We are not aware the of the difficult time these earlier scholars have faced to prevent the religion. Have a look on the following article.
By:-Abdal Hakim Murad
It hardly needs remarking that although the Four Imams, Abu Hanifa, Malik ibn Anas, al-Shafi'i and Ibn Hanbal, are regarded as the founders of these four great traditions, which, if we were asked to define them, we might sum up as sophisticated techniques for avoiding innovation, their traditions were fully systematised only by later generations of scholars. The Sunni ulama rapidly recognised the brilliance of the Four Imams, and after the late third century of Islam we find that hardly any scholars adhered to any other approach. The great hadith specialists, including al-Bukhari and Muslim, were all loyal adherents of one or another of the madhhabs, particularly that of Imam al-Shafi'i. But within each madhhab, leading scholars continued to improve and refine the roots and branches of their school. In some cases, historical conditions made this not only possible, but necessary. For instance, scholars of the school of Imam Abu Hanifah, which was built on the foundations of the early legal schools of Kufa and Basra, were wary of some hadiths in circulation in Iraq because of the prevalence of forgery engendered by the strong sectarian influences there. Later, however, once the canonical collections of Bukhari, Muslim and others became available, subsequent generations of Hanafi scholars took the entire corpus of hadiths into account in formulating and revising their madhhab. This type of process continued for two centuries, until the Schools reached a condition of maturity in the fourth and fifth centuries of the Hijra.
It was at that time, too, that the attitude of toleration and good opinion between the Schools became universally accepted. This was formulated by Imam al-Ghazali, himself the author of four textbooks of Shafi'i fiqh, and also of Al-Mustasfa, widely acclaimed as the most advanced and careful of all works on usulusul al-fiqh fil madhhab (Ihya Ulum al-Din, III, 65) While it was necessary for the Muslim to follow a recognised madhhab in order to avert the lethal danger of misinterpreting the sources, he must never fall into the trap of considering his own school categorically superior to the others. With a few insignificant exceptions, the great scholars of Sunni Islam have followed the ethos outlined by Imam al-Ghazali, and have been conspicuously respectful of each others madhhab. Anyone who has studied under traditional ulama will be well-aware of this fact.
http://www.themodernreligion.com/basic/madhab/madhab-murad.htm
I wrote:-The writer of this course called Sunnah(ahadith) the books of history and he further says (in my own words)without them the religon is complete.
Look at what the course say and then look at the Prophet (pbuh) words.
Now you have to decide, whose words you wish to follow.
Prophet (pbuh) or Tariq Hashmi
You wrote: - Here is what they state: -
Sunnan (plural of Sunnah) are practical activities and these have been transferred and established by the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh), as part of the practices of God's religion, through practical demonstration to his Companions. From the companions, these practices have been transmitted uninterrupted through successive generations of Muslims with consensus (Ijma) and practical perpetuation (tawaatur) to date. The Sunnah and the Qur'an are equally authentic. They are both delivered to us through the same source i.e. Prophet Mohammad (pbuh). They have reached us through the same mechanism of history (i.e. verbal and practical perpetuation and consensus of the Muslim Ummah). The Qur'an has reached us by verbal (documentary) transmission whilst the Sunnah by practical transmission. It is within these two that the entire basic corpus of Islam is preserved.
Reply: -This what they defined Sunnah and I accept it. But what they don’t accept as Sunnah the Authentic Ahadith in the matter of religion as accepted by majority.
You wrote:-See what the prophet (sws) hadith says and what they say. If you still think this is wrong then you are denying what the prophet (sws) said.
Reply: -There is no relation of a b/w above statement and ahadith.
You wrote:-Its upto you weather you follow your desires and be like those stupid scholars and people who throw ahl-e-hadith out of sunnis .I see no difference between you and them.Both ignore the ahadith of the prophet (sws).
Reply: -The difference is this course doesn’t accept authentic ahadith as Sunnah.For them it is the record of history so on (read the course carefully)
Quote from this course: -
. It would be a blasphemy to think that he could not institute any religious teachings in his capacity of the Messenger of Allah. However all such instructions of the Holy Prophet (sws) that add to the content of the Di#n as contained in the Holy Qur’a#n, must come down to us through Tawa#tur and Ijma (consensus) of the Companions of the Holy Prophet (sws).
____________________________________________
All these instructions of holy prophet (pbuh) which add to the content of the Deen found in ahadith. As I see the writer of the course also think like that. Then why he creating doubts in ahadith? Why he he want to keep away peoples from the things of obligatory nature which found in them and so many others important things found in ahadith. The writer of the course further says
Quote from the course: -
The body of words and sounds contained in the Holy Qur'a#n
• The body of practices constituting the Sunnah
And it is within these two that the entire Islam is preserved
Have you seen the contradiction in this course?
You wrote: -Now you have to decide which path to follow. Prophet (sws) or your whims and desires.
Your own words have no value,show me from Quran and Sunnah as I am showing to you and all others participant of this forum.
Allah Hafiz |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 1:48 PM
I wrote: - I advise you to survey 100 mosques and see what they say about triple talaq in 1 stand. You will know where the majority is standing,
You wrote:-Again you raising the same point which I already answer. It is matter of fiqa.
Earlier you wrote:- If any one still have doubt,I will advised to him, to survey 100 Mosques and see what is their understaning of Sunnah is.You will know where majority standing with.
My answer:- Again you yourself are raising the same point.Its a matter of understanding.
You wrote:-Again you raising the same point which I already answer. It is matter of fiqa.
Reply:- Marriage and divorce are matters of religion.Fiqah is the science of deriving rulings for the people after understanding the religious sources.So it is clear that it isn't a matter of fiqa.It is a matter of religion and you yourself said that follow the majority in matters of religion.But now you are abandoning your own stance.I can only mourn over your aqil.
Here the issue is more serious.One group of scholars(the 4 madhabs) are saying that the wife is haram on the man after 3 divorces in 1 stand whereas the other group of scholars(ahl-e-hadith) are saying that wife should stay.What should the couple do ? Follow the majority is what you interpret of the hadith.You can do survey of 100 mosques and ask them about this matter,you'll know where the majority stands.If you ignore the hadith of the prophet(sws) then what can I say.Its your fate then.
The Question Of Three Talaaq's Ibn Taymiyyah like his forefathers was a Hanbali Scholar and his legal opinions conformed to that school, though not exclusively. He sometimes rejected the Hanbali view just as in some matters he expressed disagreement with all the four principal juridical schools. One such case in which he differed with them was in regard to the repudiation of one's wife by three divorces given at one time.
The issue was whether a divorce pronounced thrice at the same time took legal effect or not. This issue raised the following considerations:
• whether revocation of such a divorce was possible or not. • whether the three sentences of divorce would be counted as one revocable pronouncement (talaaq) or taken as an irreversible separation. • whether the wife so divorced could return to her husband or not without a halaalah (i.e until his divorced wife was married to another man who, in turn, after the consummation of the marriage, divorces).
All the earlier jurists and traditionalists, likewise a good number of the Prophet's companions were of the view that such a pronouncement, although being repugnant to the law as well as irregular and sinful, would be regarded as an implied divorce with legal effect. As against that Ibn Taymiyyah firmly held the opinion that the three sentences of divorce spoken at the same time should be regarded as one revocable divorce. The view of Ibn Taymiyyah happened to be against the official view which naturally brought him in conflict with the 'Ullima on one hand and with the government on the other.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Taymiyyah
Edited by: Shaan on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:50 PM
Edited by: Shaan on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 5:54 PM |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 1:56 PM
I worte:- What do you people understand from the following Hadith :-
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]
Does is it mean that Ibn Taymiyyah was wrong and ignored this hadith by going against the majority(the 4 schools of thought) in declaring that only 1 divorce occurs if a man gives 3 divorces at a single stand ?
Hussein wrote:- According to the explanation of Sindi on Ibn Majah, this is an order to stay together and not be divided. So, it is an order to stay with the majority, but not necessarily to agree with the majority.
There is another Hadeeth from Musnad of Imam Ahmad that goes further in explaining this same principle.
If you study the Qur'an, you will find it mentioning examples of the majority being in error. So, no, the majority are not always right. I hope that helps a little.
Ron wrote:-To my understanding the hadith is political in nature.
http://uiforum.uaeforum.org/showthread.php?t=1106&page=7 |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 2:22 PM
You wrote: -Yes there is diffrence. But how many scholars says that without ahadith deen is complete?.Your own words in favor of this course have no value.
Reply: - The basic corpus of shariah is complete without the ahadith.Not the entire deen.If the course says that then its incorrect.
You wrote :-The writer of this course took out ahadith from Sunnah,it’s a very serious change in the religion. By following this course one will separate him self from the majority (Sunnu Muslim). The word Sunni is stand for follower of Ahadith it self.
Reply :- For the past many months I have been trying to investigate the real issue.The core issue is not that they have redefined sunnah and hadith.The core issue is that they hold that ahadith are not an independent and primary source of shariah.This statement carries significant consequences.They have strong point due to which they hold this position.
There are a few differences between Sunnah and Hadith, due to which the two sources of information cannot command the same importance or reliability in the transmission of the Shari`ah. These differences are summarized (in one of our earlier responses) as follows:
1.
In contrast to the Qur'an and the Sunnah, the Prophet (pbuh), generally, did not encourage people to record and transmit his sayings entailed in Hadith. The work of narrating and subsequently that of compiling these narratives was done, not because of any directive of the Prophet (pbuh) to the effect, but by the respective people, on their own accord.
2.
The more well known and respected among the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) did not consider the reporting, the compilation and the transmission of Hadith to have any religious significance[1]. Had that not been the case, there would predictably have been an active effort on their part to collect the scattered sayings ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) and they would have compiled the authentic and the correct among these sayings in a volume.
3.
In contrast to the transmission of the Qur'an and that of the Sunnah[2], Hadith has been transmitted by only one or a few persons in each generation.
4.
In contrast to the transmission of the Qur'an and that of the Sunnah, the transmission of Hadith is critically dependant on not only the correct understanding and perception of the narrators but also their correct and unblemished reporting of that saying or incident. This really implies that even if the chain of narrators comprises of absolutely reliable, honest and intelligent individuals - even those of the caliber of Abu Bakr and Umar (ra) - one can still not be certain about the accuracy of the reported incident or saying. We know that even the most honest, reliable and intelligent individuals are prone to making mistakes in understanding as well as in narrating their understanding.
5.
The variance in the standards of the various scholars and compilers of Hadith relating to the acceptability of a narrative as correctly ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh); their mutual differences in the strictness of the application of these standards; their compromises and variations in accepting narratives, which did not fully meet their standards; and their understanding and interpretation of the Qur'an and the text of the reported narratives is in itself an evidence that the work of these compilers and scholars, like that of the Muslim jurists, is based on their own particular interpretation, understanding and appreciation of the problem and should, therefore, not be given divine sanctity. Matters relating to human understanding and the application of such understanding are always open for discussion as well as difference of opinion[3].
If you consider each of these points closely, you shall see that Hadith, in contrast to the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), due to the factors inherent in its transmission overtime cannot be considered an independent source of the Islamic Shari`ah[4].
Footnotes:-
[1] As they had done in the case of the Qur'an and the Sunnah.
[2] The transmission of the Qur'an and the Sunnah is not dependant upon the understanding and perception of individuals. Firstly, the transmission of the Qur'an and the Sunnah is not the transmission of one's understanding of a particular verse of the Qur'an or of an action of the Prophet (pbuh), but is actually the transmission of the very words of the Qur'an and the very words of the Prophet (pbuh).
[3] The mere fact that the work of compilation of narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), continued even after such legendry works as "Sahih Bukhari" and "Sahih Muslim" is in itself an evidence that these works were not considered as final words, even by the contemporaries of these great Muslim scholars or by those, who immediately followed them.
[4] There is no doubting the fact that Hadith is one of the primary sources of the life, times, general teachings and general practices of the Prophet (pbuh) as well as the prevalent socio-religious and socio-moral environment. It is indeed the primary and the most authentic source of the Seerah of the Prophet (pbuh) as well as that of Muslim history of the time of the inception of the Muslim Ummah.
It is quite obvious that if Hadith was to be placed as an independent source of the Islamic Shari`ah, the Prophet (pbuh) would have made the same arrangement of teaching and securing his sayings as was made for the Qur'an and the Sunnah, so that no part of the Shari`ah was left at the understanding of the narrators of Hadith or at the criteria of the various Muhadditheen. It is also quite predictable that if Hadith was considered by the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) as an independent source of the Shari`ah, the more accomplished and the more well-known among the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) would have made special arrangements for the collection and recording of the narratives of the Prophet (pbuh). In the same manner as the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh), had Hadith been an independent source of the Islamic Shari`ah, its transmission would have been in an uninterrupted perpetual chain from one generation to the other; it would obviously not have been transmitted overtime by scattered individual narratives in each generation. Furthermore, had Hadith been an independent source of the Shari`ah, its transmission to the subsequent generations would not have been left to the understanding, perception and consequent reporting of individuals, which always entailed chances of errors and mistakes. Finally, had Hadith entailed an independent and essential element of the Shari`ah, the Prophet (pbuh) would then have left an official corpus of Hadith with his companions and would not have left the acceptance or rejection of any given Hadith at the discretion and understanding of later scholars and Muhadditheen.
These, in my opinion, are some of the major differences in the transmission of the Qur'an and the Sunnah and that of Hadith, which evidence the fact that Hadith, with all the invaluable information that it might entail, was never delivered by the Prophet (pbuh) as an independent source of the Islamic Shari`ah.
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=76&sscatid=66
The consequences of this are :-
1). The classical position is that stoning to death is for adultery and lashes are for fornication,death for apostasy and some other issues.
This team believes that due to ahadith not being an independent source of shariah,they cannot change the command or add an essential element to the basic corpus of shariah i.e. Quran and Sunnah.Ahadith are always to be understood in light of Quran and Sunnah.
This is where Iam having difficulties.Can you pose their points to some classical scholar and let me know what they say in reply to those points.
Edited by: Shaan on Tuesday, July 25, 2006 3:22 PM |
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Shaan
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 25, 2006 - 2:31 PM
You wrote in several of responses that writing of Hadiths was never initiated and promoted by Prophet.
The following is the argument presented by those who are of the opinion that Hadiths were memorized, written and followed by Companions during Prophet's own life time. Hence, they are of the view that Hadith is a part of Shar`iah.
1) The following Hadith explains the reason why senior companions like Abu Bakr (ra), Omar (ra) did not report many Hadiths.
a) Narrated Abu Huraira:
People say that I have narrated many Hadiths (The Prophet's narrations). Had it not been for two verses in the Qur'an, I would not have narrated a single Hadith, and the verses are: "Verily those who conceal the clear sign and the guidance which We have sent down . . . (up to) Most Merciful." (2:159-160). And no doubt our Muhajir (emigrant) brothers used to be busy in the market with their business (bargains) and our Ansari brothers used to be busy with their property (agriculture). But I (Abu Huraira) used to stick to Allah's Apostle contented with what will fill my stomach and I used to attend that which they used not to attend and I used to memorize that which they used not to memorize. (Bukhari)
2) The following Hadiths says that the Hadiths were memorized, written down by Companions of the prophet with his consent and order and in his own life time.
a) Narrated Abu Huraira:
There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdallah bin Amr (bin Al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same (Volume 1, Book 3, Number 113, Bukhari)
b) Narrated Abu Huraira:
I said to Allah's Apostle "I hear many narrations (Hadiths) from you but I forget them." Allah's Apostle said, "Spread your Rida' (garment)." I did accordingly and then he moved his hands as if filling them with something (and emptied them in my Rida') and then said, "Take and wrap this sheet over your body." I did it and after that I never forgot any thing. (Volume 1, Book 3, Number 119)
c) Prophet ordered a person to write down the Hadith when a Ansari sahabi was unable to memorize the narrative. (Tirmidhi, Kitabul Ilm)
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3) Companions gave importance for Hadith.
a) Narrated Abu Huraira:
I said: "O Allah's Apostle! Who will be the luckiest person, who will gain your intercession on the Day of Resurrection?" Allah's Apostle said: O Abu Huraira! "I have thought that none will ask me about it before you as I know your longing for Hadiths..."(Bukhari).
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4) The Hadith below explains that following narratives of the Prophet is a directive of Qur'an and hence it is a part of Shari`ah.
a) "In connection with this verse, I am marveled by what is corroborated by Ibn Masud (Allah be pleased with him) that is, a woman came to him and told him: "You who says: May Allah's curse be on Al-Namisat [a woman who plucks hers or others eye-brows - to be a thin line - to seek beauty. Such an act is fobidden. It is a mean to change the form of Allah's creation] and Al-Motanamisat [a woman who asks others to do it for her] and those who tatoo." He said: "Yes." She said, "I read the Book of Allah (Al-Qur'an) from its beginning to its end, I did not find what you have said." He told her: "If you have read it, you would have found it. As for your reading what the Messanger teaches you, take it, and what he forbids you, avoid doing it." She said: "Certainly". He said: "I have heard the Messanger of Allah (salaallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam) says: "May Allah's curse be on Al-Namisat." (Bukhari & Muslim as translated by Muhsin Khan)
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And
Prophet said, "None of you reclines on his bed, the order comes to him on an affair which I am commanded to do or not to do, he says: 'I do not know, we follow only what is found in the Book of Allah." (Tirmithi).
As far as the Hadith in which Prophet is reported to have said not to write anything but Qur'an. The scholars explain that this restriction was temporal to avoid the mixing of Quran and Hadith but later this restriction was removed.
How do you refute the above argument?
May God's mercy and blessings be upon you.
Thanks & Regards,
Ameen
Answer:
Your first argument relates to Abu Hurairah's (ra) explanation for the lower number of narratives reported by the senior companions of the Prophet (pbuh).
Irrespective of whether the explanation ascribed to Abu Hurairah (ra) is considered to be correct or not, it is obvious that the narrative positively acknowledges the fact that the senior companions of the Prophet (pbuh), indeed, did not narrate as many Hadiths, as Abu Hurairah (ra). Now, this lack of narration of the senior companions of the Prophet (pbuh) could be because these senior companions were either 1) not aware of all these Hadiths, or 2) did not transmit them to others, even after being aware of them. Keeping these two possibilities in perspective, consider the point that if the transmission of the basic corpus of Islam was dependent on the transmission of Hadith, then it would respectively mean that either 1) even all the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) were not aware of the complete basic corpus of Islam; or 2) the companions did not transmit the basic corpus of Islam, even after being aware of it.
Whatever the reason for the lack of a large number of Hadiths reported by the senior companions, it is difficult for me to accept that these senior companions were kept away from knowing and reporting even the basic corpus of Islam due to their economic and worldly activities. On the contrary, the Prophet (pbuh) taught each one of his companions the basic corpus of Islam and none of his companions were kept away from learning the basic corpus of Islam for any reason, however significant it may have been. In other words, each one of the companions was aware of the complete corpus of Islam and none of them shirked his/her responsibility of transmitting it to others.
Your second argument relates to the fact that some of the companions, specifically `AbdAllah ibn `Amr (ra), used to write the sayings of the Prophet (pbuh). Nevertheless, the narratives that you have cited in this argument, obviously, do not even remotely imply that the companions of the Prophet (pbuh), generally, used to write down every thing that the Prophet (pbuh) said, even though there may have been some companions, who, allegedly, would write down or memorize every thing that the Prophet (pbuh) said.
Your third argument relates to the fact that the companions of the Prophet (pbuh) gave importance to Hadith. I do not have any doubts regarding the fact that the companions and all later Muslims give importance to narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh). However, giving importance to narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) is one thing and to consider these narratives as a primary source of the basic corpus of Islam is quite another thing.
According to your fourth argument, because the Qur'an has directed the Muslims to obey the Prophet (pbuh), therefore Hadith should be considered a primary source of the Islamic Shari`ah.
As I see it, Hadith is not a saying of the Prophet (pbuh), on the contrary, Hadith is, in fact, a saying ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), with the obvious possibility of being an incorrect or an inaccurate ascription. It is primarily this fact relating to Hadith, which has always promoted extensive investigation in this field among the Muslims, during all times. Thus, the Qur'anic directive relating to the obedience towards the Prophet (pbuh) should not unconditionally be applied on Hadith.
I hope this helps.
Regards,
Moiz Amjad
January 2, 2002
http://www.understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=discussion&did=299&sscatid=66 |
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