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usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 28, 2006  -  11:03 AM 
Brother Tariq Hashmi

Assalam Alikum Brother and well come back.

Brother first of all I want to apologize to you of what I have said to you (Munkareen-e-Hadees) this was my mistake. I hope you will forgive me,I will always remember it and will pray for you.

Brother on page 3,there is a post of mine waiting for you reply. In your absence the matter was discussed in details with brother Junaid Hasan and later on with brother Shaan.It would be very use full for you to go through with the discussion between us.

1) Please lets me know if your self is agree in principle that there is a need to revised this course.

Or

2) You wish to further discuss the issue with me before agreeing on it.

Or

3) You still think even after gone through the all the forum and even after seeing my all input here, that there is no need to revised this course.

I would like to remind you what you have said in your opening remarks.

Quote:-I assure you that we will not reject the truth in any form and anywhere. We pray to the Almighty that He helps us reach to the truth and follow it.

If you choose No.1 or No.2 of above, so I will be very pleased with that, but if you going to choose 3,then.

I would withdraw my self from this course due to following reasons.

a) This course is taking out Ahadith from Sunnah that is against the understanding of Muslims.

b) After gone through this course I felt, this course explain that Ahadith are not an independent and primary source of shariah but an explainatianary source only.

c) You are failed to show any reference from Quran and Sunnah in support of the course as I had requested

d) You are failed to show an even a single scholar of present and past in support of yours understanding of Sunnah as I had requested.

f) I have presented the understanding of Sunnah with clear reference of following leading scholars, which is different the understanding of this course.

i) Maulana Maudoodi Sahib
ii) Mufti Taqi Usmnai
iii)Dr.Farhat Hashmi
iv)Yousuf Easte
v) Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman (Posted by Brother Junaid)


In the light of above and the all the input provided by me in this forum, give me one good reason why one should follow yours understanding of Sunnah through this course.

Looking forward to hear from you soon

Allah Hafiz
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Friday, July 28, 2006  -  5:15 PM 
Come on Usmani, what are you talking about?

1. I have refuted your first definition of the Sunnah from your very own words.

Precisely this was your definition:

“The Sunnah has been defined by the scholars of the science of Hadîth as follows:

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).””

Neither Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman nor Maulana Maududi defines Sunnah like this. However, they may define the Hadith like this and both of them differentiate between the Hadith and Sunnah.

2. You have not provided me the reason why the words of a Hadith that you posted here were different from the actual wording of it presented in Sahi Bukhari.

3. You have not yet given me the correct references of the Ahadith you attributed to Imam Bukhari (RA).

4. I was very right to say that I wouldn’t take any Hadith from you. You keep posting the words of the Ahadith without keeping in mind their authenticity and the background. For example, you quoted the following Hadith:

“The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]”

Do you know that there is a lot of discussion among intellects whether this Hadith is authentic? I request you, once again, to please take care while quoting the Ahadith; this is not a child’s play to deal with them; it is one of the most difficult literatures of the D’in to correctly understand. Even the most exalted of the companions (RA) of the Prophet (SAW) used to be extremely careful in telling a Haith to someone.

You wrote, “This course is taking out Ahadith from Sunnah that is against the understanding of Muslims.”

I’m a Muslim too and it is not against my understanding. Know that Allah’s Din belong to Allah alone. Even if a million scholars are born who have a consensus upon a matter, know that they have no status in front of Allah’s Book and the Prophet (SAW). If we have any problem with any matter of the D’in, we would refer to Allah’s Book and the Prophet (SAW) first and then see how other people have understood it.

You further wrote, “You are failed to show any reference from Quran and Sunnah in support of the course as I had requested.”

A Quranic verse is presented in the course that favours our concept; please see it. I also presented an authentic Hadith from Sahi Muslim. Now we cannot make any additions in Allah’s Book or the Ahadith of the Prophet (SAW) that would fulfill the criteria of “your request”.

Then you wrote, “You are failed to show an even a single scholar of present and past in support of yours understanding of Sunnah as I had requested.”

We have presented the viewpoints of Sayadna Umar (RA) and Sayyada Ayesha (RA). If you think we have wrongly ascribed those viewpoints to these two companions, present your objection please.

Presenting a scholar from the past is no criterion to see if something is true or false. I wonder why you refer to the scholars again and again. Don’t we have Allah’s Book, the Sunnah and the Ahadith of the Prophet (SAW) with us to see whether something is true? For your information, the famous jurists (fuqha) made a common mistake in understanding of the Quranic directive of dividing the property of the dead. If we follow any one of them, it would necessary mean that the Quranic division is unworkable. Also, I must give another example here that not even a single person from the Ummah discovered the seven parts and the pairs of Surahs (as the Qur’an indicates itself) until 1900s when Imam Hamid-ud-Din Farahi discovered them and Maulana Amin Ehsan Islahi further elaborated upon them. Therefore, the D’in belongs to Allah alone and He may give anyone, at any time, a better understanding of some matter.

If you talk about the scholars, I already have mentioned the names of Allama Javed Ahmad Ghamidi, Maulana Amin Eshan Islahi and Imam Hamid-ud-Din Farahi that I personally have studied. Also, I have made it clear that Mufti Muneeb-ur-Rehman and Maulana Maududi differentiate between the Hadith and Sunnah whereas your definition as presented above does not.

If you want to challenge our definition of the Sunnah, please request Mufti Taqi Usmani to appear on Aaj Islam and have a scholastic debate with Allama Javed Ahamd Ghamidi. That would be of much help.

Thanks.

Sincerely,

Junaid
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Friday, July 28, 2006  -  9:49 PM 
Dear brother Usmani and Junaid,

You have discussed too much about this and that definition of sunnah and this and that scholar's understanding is this and that.

The main point of discussion in my opinion which we should be focusing on is :-

"Are ahadith a primary and independent source of shariah or not ?"


What we have agreed upon in my opinion are the following :-

1). sunnah can also be derived from ahadith.

2). Ahadith are zanni i.e. they can either be true or false.Quranic verses are yaqeeni

3). Ahadith cannot contradict a directive of Quran as well as their spirit.

4). Ahadith are a valuable source of Islamic teachings.

4). There are ahadith which are disputed with regards to their level of authenticity amongst the scholars of hadith as well as there are ahadith which are agreed upon unanimously uptil now.There are more ahadith agreed upon relative to the disputed ones.The door is open for the accpetance and rejection of ahadith based upon sound evidence.

5). Both Quran and Ahadith have reamined subjected to different interpretations and hence there is a difference in directives derived from these two sources.

6). Ahadith explain and elaborate the directives of Quran as well as the spirit of these directives.


To get some fruitful porgress in the discussion we should not be mainly discussing the above points again and again.
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, July 29, 2006  -  7:58 AM 
Dear Junaid Hasan

You wrote:-If you want to challenge our definition of the Sunnah,

Reply: - I have already challenge through this forum.

You wrote: -please request Mufti Taqi Usmani to appear on Aaj Islam and have a scholastic debate with Allama Javed Ahamd Ghamidi. That would be of much help.

Reply:-I am not sure that this is also the understanding of Sunnah of Javed Ahmad Ghamidi Sahib.On 21 July 2006 Friday I personally heard him saying ahadith as sunnat in his discussion in the very same T.V program.

Any way you need to understand one thing here as I am saying this from very beginning that, this understanding of Sunnah is a newly develop idea of Mr.Tariq Hashmi and who else involved with him. This is not the common under standing of the Muslim Scholars and Muslims.How much they would propagate it, not many will listen to them.

If they thought that they have some solid ground on that so they should present this to the leading scholars and if there will be weight in their evidences and if these scholars will also approved it then only this understanding would flourish in the society.

This forum could be used as a test to see that weather their understanding of Sunnah carries some weight or other wise. They would be the judges for that to decide it.

Allah Hafiz
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 29, 2006  -  8:28 AM 
Usmani wrote, “I am not sure that this is also the understanding of Sunnah of Javed Ahmad Ghamidi Sahib.On 21 July 2006 Friday I personally heard him saying ahadith as sunnat in his discussion in the very same T.V program.”

For God’s sake, stop attributing wrong things to the scholars. Provide me the evidence to this.

Usmani wrote, “If they thought that they have some solid ground on that so they should present this to the leading scholars and if there will be weight in their evidences and if these scholars will also approved it then only this understanding would flourish in the society.”

Tell me who are the scholars to decided something as wrong or right when Allah T’ala Himself has declared the Qur’an as Furqan – something that differentiates between wrong and right?

The leading scholars of today, especially from the sub-continent, back nothing but their own particular sect. They will die but not hear even a little contrary concept to their sect. Above all, they are not educated enough to decide upon a matter. All they learn throughout their lives is the teachings of a particular sect. They know not of the inter-related disciplines to the religious sciences like, Philosophy, Psychology, Linguistics, Social Sciences etc. etc.
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 29, 2006  -  8:51 AM 
Shaan,

Assalamo’alaikum.

I’ve put forward your last question to the scholars and I’d post the answer here for you as soon as I get it.

Shaan wrote, “The main point of discussion in my opinion which we should be focusing on is :-"Are ahadith a primary and independent source of shariah or not ?"”

Sure.

Shaan wrote, “sunnah can also be derived from ahadith.”

I do not agree to it. The Hadith is scrutinized for its authenticity in the light of the Qur’an and Sunnah. The Sunnah may be found in Ahadith but can never be derived or approved from them. The Sunnah is derived from the religious practices of the Prophet (SAW) that have reached us through the absolutely reliable source of transmission, i.e., the consensus of the Ummah.

I’ve heard of the derivation of a guidebook from the textbook but haven’t heard of the textbook being derived from a guidebook. The Qur’an and Sunnah are the textbook whereas Ahadith are their guidebook.

Shaan wrote, “Ahadith are zanni i.e. they can either be true or false.Quranic verses are yaqeeni”

I agree.

Shaan wrote, “Ahadith cannot contradict a directive of Quran as well as their spirit.”

I agree. If a Hadith would do so, it would be rejected straightaway.

Shaan wrote, “Ahadith are a valuable source of Islamic teachings.”

No doubt in this, I agree.

Shaan wrote, “There are ahadith which are disputed with regards to their level of authenticity amongst the scholars of hadith as well as there are ahadith which are agreed upon unanimously uptil now.There are more ahadith agreed upon relative to the disputed ones.The door is open for the accpetance and rejection of ahadith based upon sound evidence.”

I do not agree to only one thing in the above point. That is: “There are more ahadith agreed upon relative to the disputed ones.” Disputed Ahadith are far more as compared to the agreed ones since the 2nd and 3rd hijri.

Shaan wrote, “Both Quran and Ahadith have reamined subjected to different interpretations and hence there is a difference in directives derived from these two sources.”

I agree.

Shaan wrote, “Ahadith explain and elaborate the directives of Quran as well as the spirit of these directives.”

I agree but Aahdith also explain the Sunnah and the human nature.

Thanks.

Junaid
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Saturday, July 29, 2006  -  11:35 AM 
Dear Junaid

I wrote, “I am not sure that this is also the understanding of Sunnah of Javed Ahmad Ghamidi Sahib.On 21 July 2006 Friday I personally heard him saying ahadith as sunnat in his discussion in the very same T.V program.”

You wrote:-For God’s sake, stop attributing wrong things to the scholars. Provide me the evidence to this.

Reply:-Below is the link of the book of Javed Ahmed Ghamidi Sahib.In this book in many places he said about ahadith as sunnat.See the page No 36&37as well.

http://www.ghamidi.org/download/Bk_burhan.pdf

Actually you are proven a lier here recently, you have attributed a lie on me regarding the view of Maulana Maudoodi Sahib on fist size bear.

You wrote:-Tell me who are the scholars to decided something as wrong or right when Allah T’ala Himself has declared the Qur’an as Furqan – something that differentiates between wrong and right?

Reply:-So thats proved that their understanding on Sunnah is wrong other wise show me any verse from Quran which shows that sayings of prophet(pbuh) are not included in Sunnah.I challenge you, you won't find a single verse.Because you are wrong and Quran never approved wrong things.Whereas I have already shown many verses to prove my point.

You wrote:-The leading scholars of today, especially from the sub-continent, back nothing but their own particular sect. They will die but not hear even a little contrary concept to their sect. Above all, they are not educated enough to decide upon a matter. All they learn throughout their lives is the teachings of a particular sect. They know not of the inter-related disciplines to the religious sciences like, Philosophy, Psychology, Linguistics, Social Sciences etc.

Reply:-Thats what hepend,when people don't find any answer,they strart blaming other.

Quran is not supporting your new idea nor Ahadith.So why you blaming the scholars?
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 29, 2006  -  5:31 PM 
Usmani wrote, “Actually you are proven a lier here recently, you have attributed a lie on me regarding the view of Maulana Maudoodi Sahib on fist size bear.”

Which lie? Maulana Maududi (RA) says that a fist length beard is not a Sunnah but habit of the Prophet (SAW).

Usmani wrote, “Because you are wrong and Quran never approved wrong things.Whereas I have already shown many verses to prove my point.”

None of the verse you presented talks about the Hadith.

Usmani wrote, “Below is the link of the book of Javed Ahmed Ghamidi Sahib.In this book in many places he said about ahadith as sunnat.See the page No 36&37as well.”

I have Burhan in my hands and page 36 and 37 are about the punishment of “rajam”. If you want to see the Teacher Ghamidi’s view on the Sunnah and Hadith, please see his book, Asool-o-Mubadi.

Usmani wrote, “Thats what hepend,when people don't find any answer,they strart blaming other.”

Very true!

Quran is not supporting your new idea nor Ahadith.So why you blaming the scholars?”

It means you do not want to accept the Quranic verse and the Ahadith from Sahi Muslim, Sayyadna Umar and Sayyada Ayesha (RA). Quite interesting!

I am not blaming, I’m presenting a fact. Most of the Islamic scholars from the sub-continent know nothing about Psychology, Social Sciences, Biology and Philosophy etc. etc. because they never study these subjects in their institutes. Even the case is that if an institute is Hanafi, for example, it’d only impose Hanafi school of thought on its students along with a lot and lot of hatred against the other schools of thought like “ehl-e-tashee”. Even a scholar is not allowed, in the sub-continent, to differ in the viewpoint from the “Imam” he follows. Oh my God, such narrow mindedness and personality following!!

Come on Usmani, leave this old stubborn attitude of the sub-continent to stand up with a gun in hand whenever you see a person differing from your viewpoint. Your definition has been proven wrong from your very own words, still I have no objection whatever you believe in as it is purely your and your Lord’s problem.

Edited by: JunaidHasan on Saturday, July 29, 2006 5:56 PM
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Saturday, July 29, 2006  -  5:52 PM 
Brother Usmani:

Let’s get back to your definition of the Sunnah as provided in your first post. Here it is:

“The Sunnah has been defined by the scholars of the science of Hadîth as follows:

“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).”

“Confirmation” in this definition is termed in Arabic as Taqreer. What is meant by this term is like somebody said something, or acted in a particular manner, and his saying or act came to the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and he either confirmed it in express words or remained silent without given any indication of disapproval. Such silence, being an implied approval of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) is also included in the term Sunnah.

(From the book of Molana Taqi Usmani,Darul uloom Karachi)”

You gave a complete definition from your side – the inverted commas and the full stop, used in the definition above, clearly confirm its completeness. You also gave an explanation of the “confirmation” – the word that was a little confusing in the definition. And you did not explain anything further.

According to your definition:

1. A word spoken is Sunnah. The Prophet (SAW) declared himself as a Prophet from the word of his mouth. It must be a Sunnah to declare oneself as a Prophet.
2. An act done is Sunnah. The Prophet (SAW) married an aged woman. It must be a Sunnah to marry the older woman.
3. A “confirmation” given by the Prophet (SAW) is Sunnah. The Prophet (SAW) asked a group of men to colour their white beards (Sahi Bukhari, Kitab-ul-Libas). It must be a Sunnah to colour the beard.

Now what do you say about your definition?? Please be honest!
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  6:03 AM 
THE AHADITH:

The Ahadith are not an independent source of Sharia (Islamic law) as they do not add to the content of the Qur’an and Sunnah. They merely explain the Qur’an and Sunnah and are totally dependent on these two for their survival. The fact that we cannot, cent percent, guarantee every Hadith should not mean that we should turn our backs on the Ahadith. That is because:

1. The scholars of the science of Hadith (for example, Imam Muslim, Imam Bukhari, Imam Malik (RA)) have put in tremendous efforts to distinguish the true Ahadith from the fabricated ones. These are such outstanding and worthwhile efforts that we can be highly proud of them.

2. The Ahadith help a great deal to understand the directives of the Qur’an. For example, what was the real purpose behind the delay in commanding that no more people could be made slaves?

3. They are the only source from which we can get to know the biography and lifestyle of the Prophet (SAW).

4. They inform us of the uswa-e-hasana (the way our dear Prophet (SAW) carried out the Quranic directives in the most beautiful way, for example, the way he performed ablution) of the Prophet (SAW).

5. They enlighten the background in which the Qur’an was revealed. This background, which includes the geographical circumstances of the Qur’anic revelations, is extremely important to understand the true essence of the different Quranic directives. For example, when the Qur’an says “these Jews” cannot be your friends, we need to know “which Jews”. The Ahadith tell us that those from the tree Jewish tribes of Al-Madina which were wholeheartedly against the Muslims and no good was expected of them anymore.

6. They inform us about the companions (RA) of the Prophet (SAW) who can be seen as the heroes in the history due to their extra-ordinary commitment with the Qur’an and Sunnah.

There may be many more reasons to embrace the science of Hadith but, I think, the above have already elaborated much.

THE SUNNAH:

1. So far, none of the established Sunan are “against” the Qur’an. (By this, I do not mean that all of them are explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an.)

2. The Sunan are the religious Abrahamic traditions that were already prevailing, in some form, in the world even before the advent of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW). These Sunan are older than the Qur’an itself. If a Sunnah is not mentioned in the Qur’an (for example: circumcision of the male children or the way Salah be performed etc.), it does not mean that it would be rejected as the Qur’an not only testifies the religion of the Prophet Abraham (SAW) but orders us to follow it. The Qur’an is revealed with the Sunan-e-Ibrahimi (the Abrahamic traditions) in its background that is why it doesn’t explain what is Hajj, Umrah and Salah but merely orders people to carry out these Sunan. In other words, people were already aware of the Sunan-e-Ibrahimi. However, the Holy Prophet (SAW) purified these Sunan from the polytheistic spirits developed within them with time, and rectified them in their supreme form. Though Sunan were present in all the Abrahamic religions (Judaism, Christianity and Islam) but they should not be mixed up with the laws (Sharia) of each religion – the laws kept changing in the different Divine books but the Sunan, more or less, remained the same.

The question why the Holy Prophet (SAW) adopted the religious Abrahimic traditions and, after corrections and additions, instituted them in the lives of his followers as an integral part of their faith is answered in the following verse:

“And then we revealed unto you (the command) to follow the religion of Abraham, who was steadfast and was not one of the polytheists.” (16:123)

3. The Sunan are as pure as the Qur’an itself because both have come to us through the same mean of transformation – the consensus of each generation of the Ummah.

4. The whole Ummah is and has been unanimous on the established Sunan because of the Sunan’s superlative clarity. If a group of Muslims adds something new to the Sunan, the whole Ummah doesn’t accept it. Therefore, the consensus of, by and large, the whole Ummah is necessary to entitle something as Sunnah.

I hope this would be of help.

Thank you.

Sincerely,

J.


Edited by: JunaidHasan on Monday, July 31, 2006 12:40 PM
usmani790

PAKISTAN
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  7:45 AM 
Brother Junaid

You wrote: - Now what do you say about your definition?? Please be honest!

Reply: -Brother Prophet (pbuh) came here to teach us the deen-e-Islam.
A word spoken, (in the matter of deen)

or an act done,(inthe matter of deen)

or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).”(in the matter of deen)

So one could expect from a Muslim brother that this point is no need to explain to him. But even if a Muslim brother still have any problem to understand that.so he should ask the person to clarify it rather start interpreting his own and blaming to him.This is not the right way brother.

I feel that I have already explained my points of view in details. Every one has right to agree with it or oppose it. Now I am only waiting for Brother Tariq to reply my two nos. posts here. I only wish to see his response only.If it would be in negative, I won’t argue to him much and would withdraw my self from this course.Who ever thought that my inputs on this course are baseless, so he or she always carry on with this course.

May Allah Bless All of You

Allah Hafiz
JunaidHasan

GERMANY
Posted - Monday, July 31, 2006  -  8:30 AM 
Though I still do not agree with your definition above (even after the inclusion of 'in the matter of deen') but great to see your positive and healthy attitude!

May Allah T’ala bless you too with nothing but the best. (A'meen!)
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Wednesday, August 2, 2006  -  12:54 PM 
Hadith abrogating Quran!!!

The Raafidis quote invalid evidence to support their argument that mut’ah is permissible. For example:

(a) They quote the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“…so with those of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations, give them their Mahr as prescribed…”

[al-Nisa’ 4:24]

They say: this verse indicates that mut’ah is permissible, and the word ‘their mahr (ujoorahunna – lit. their dues or their wages)’ is evidence that what is meant by the phrase ‘you have enjoyed sexual relations’ is mut’ah.

The refutation of this is the fact that prior to this Allaah mentions the women whom a man is forbidden to marry, then he mentions what is permissible for him, and He commands the man to give to the woman he marries her mahr.

The joy of marriage is expressed here by the word enjoyment (‘of whom you have enjoyed sexual relations’). A similar instance occurs in the Sunnah, in the hadeeth of Abu Hurayrah according to which the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Woman is like a bent rib, if you try to straighten her you will break her. If you want to enjoy her, then enjoy her while she still has some crookedness in her.”

Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 4889; Muslim, 1468.

The mahr is referred to here as ajr (lit. dues or wages), but this does not refer to the money which is paid to the woman with whom he engages in mut’ah in the contract of mut’ah. The mahr is referred to as ajr elsewhere in the Book of Allaah, where Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O Prophet (Muhammad)! Verily, We have made lawful to you your wives, to whom you have paid their Mahr (bridal‑money given by the husband to his wife at the time of marriage)…”

[al-Ahzaab 33:50]

Thus it becomes clear that there is no evidence in this verse to suggest that mut’ah is permissible.


Even if we were to say for argument’s sake that this verse indicates that mut’ah is permitted, we would still say that it is abrogated by the reports in the saheeh Sunnah which prove that mut’ah is forbidden until the Day of Resurrection.


http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=20738&ln=eng&txt=muta
iftikharaslam

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Saturday, August 5, 2006  -  4:59 PM 
in my opinion, moderators of this forum want 2 do ijtehad about the terminologies of sunna and ahadees.if u start taking practical cosensus only as sunnah then 4 a particular region on the earth what people r practising in the name of islam since generations will have 2 b accepted as sunna bcoz there is amal-e-tawatur,unless somebody comes and tells them that what they r doing is not written in any authentic book of hadees,therefore, i think v should give respect and follow those islamic scholers who have spent there whole lives for islamic studies under the guidence of ulema and not those people of 2day whose basic edcation starts with baba black sheep.
Shaan

PAKISTAN
Posted - Sunday, August 6, 2006  -  10:16 AM 
quote:

in my opinion, moderators of this forum want 2 do ijtehad about the terminologies of sunna and ahadees.if u start taking practical cosensus only as sunnah then 4 a particular region on the earth what people r practising in the name of islam since generations will have 2 b accepted as sunna bcoz there is amal-e-tawatur,unless somebody comes and tells them that what they r doing is not written in any authentic book of hadees,therefore, i think v should give respect and follow those islamic scholers who have spent there whole lives for islamic studies under the guidence of ulema and not those people of 2day whose basic edcation starts with baba black sheep.


First point is that consensus is not the ONLY condition for something to be qualified as Sunnah.There is consensus that the Prophet(sws) lived in Arab.This doesn't mean that living in Arab is Sunnah because of consensus.

There are 7 principles of determining sunnah as put forth by Javed Ahmed Ghamidi.You can read them in the July 2006 issue under the heading Principles of Determining Sunnah at http://renaissance.com.pk/


Also the consensus is not related to the generations of people of a particular area or region.The consensus which is referred to is the consensus of ALL the sahaba(ra) and the subsequent muslim generations i.e. the whole ummah.It is similar to Quran on which there is consensus starting from sahaba(ra) till today and inshallah till qiyamah.If people of some sect or region starts believing that there are more or less verses of the real Quran then the present Quran we have then will you say that their claim has to be accepted merely because of the consensus of that sect or the consensus of the generations of people of that particular region ???

If we take ahadith as the one and only source of sunnah, even then a person who has no access to ahadith books can be misguided by his community people and ulama in which he is raised in taking something as sunnah which in fact is bidah.
iftikharaslam

SAUDI ARABIA
Posted - Sunday, August 6, 2006  -  8:06 PM 
i m still not satisfied with ur reply. this point has been repeatedly stressed upon on this site that sunna is the PRACTICAL CONCENSUS of umma and u r saying that its not the only condition so it means that other condition is AHADEES

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