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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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 Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 7:07 AM 
quote:
Isn't so called the process of Twaatur man-made, if you are so much curious?
I will give you all that as soon as you give me a voice recording of Quran done in 6th century . Or you can give me a video recording of the how it was written and collected at that time and prove it that no man-made-work involved. |
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Rakhtal
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 1:02 PM
quote:
My Quote: Anyhow, noble Qura’n is the only guideline. So what is the Qura’nic evidence to support your whim and the wishful thinking - "Ijmaa" (Consensus) & "Tawaatur" (continuity)?
Your Reply: So what is the evidence U pepole HAVE in support of your whim and the wishful thinking i.e. Qura’n is the ONLY guideline.
You COPIED my words!! Being so called and exhibited a Hafiz,, did not you pay any heed to the following verses of Noble Quran?????
[6:114] Shall I seek other than GOD as a source of law, when He has revealed to you this book fully detailed? Those who received the scripture recognize that it has been revealed from your Lord, truthfully. You shall not harbor any doubt.
[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
The above verses clearly imply that Qur’an is FULLY DETAILED, COMPLETE and is the ONLY GUIDANCE FOR US. So I think we should not require any other source besides it to observe Islam. If you think otherwise then it is your choice, whim or the wish, I have no objection.
quote:
well this Mathematical Miracle of Qura’n is Invented by YOU people & it's NOT a GOD given. What HISTORICAL proof U people HAVE to CLAIM that this Quran is exactly the SAME that was Revealed to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh)?
When you give any reference of Qura’nic sura or verse, are these numbers given by God? Here you are adhering only to God words while you don’t believe in other ones given in the Noble Qura’n clearly.
Edited by: Rakhtal on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 5:43 PM |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 3:14 PM
Assalaamu alykum brother Rakhtal
You seem to have missed the point made by other brothers about tawatur. None of us doubt the authencity of Qur'an. The point made is that our belief is that the QUr'an we have at present is the same Qur'an that was brought by angel Gabriel upon prophet pbuh.Our belief is that the Qur'an was transmitted to us generation after generation by the ijmmah and tawatur of the muslim Ummah, or how else would it be here today. If we refute tawatur and ijmmah of muslim ummah then how can we prove that this is the same authentic Qur'an that weas delivered by Prophet pbuh 1400 years ago. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 3:18 PM
" Call to the way of your Lord with wisdom and sincere exhortations and debate with them in manners that are appropriate 16;125"
We must all remember that we are discussing our religion and talking about Qur'an. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 3:49 PM
Br waseem,
I am trying to say that Quran and Hadith both were written and transfered to the next generations in the best available technology of that time.One cant ask why modern communication methods were not used for the same.
Handwriting ,memorising and counter checking of text were the best means to keep the text unadultered and our previous scholars used it.
wassalam |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 3:52 PM
19. It is interesting to note that while Khalifa keeps telling the reader that the Quran is “complete, perfect and fully detailed” (pp.664-665), he saw it fit to include no less than forty appendices to explain the Quran! Obvious he did not really believe his own assertions if he needed forty appendices to “complete, perfect and detail” his translation.
5. God appoints Satan as a “god” on earth (p.xvi). This statement is given with two Quranic references – 2:30 and 36:60. It is interesting that the first reference (2:30) in Surah Baqarah states, “Recall that your Lord said to the angels, “I am placing a representative (a temporary god) on Earth” (p.6). For a religion that purports to be devoted to God ALONE, they have unwittingly created another god, Satan, be it only on the “spaceship” Earth and only on a temporary basis. No monotheistic religion in history has ever described or referred to Satan as god – only the Satanists. How then can such a religion be of the truth when it has created another god besides God!
11. In one breath they claim that “Hadith and Sunnah are satanic innovations”, (p.664) “ridiculous and nonsensical sources” (p.690) and “blasphemy” (p.708) while in another they state that “While Hadith is forbidden as a source of religious teachings, it can be a useful source of history” (p.692). So this means that satanic innovations are a useful source of history! You cannot have it both ways, if it is satanic then how can it be a useful source of history when the Quran clearly calls Satan a deceiver[3]. Yet on pages 658, 662, 670, and 692, Khalifa mentions a total of six ahadith and they are presented as authentic sources of information in order to prove his point of view. So what is it – satanic innovations and blasphemy or a useful source of history?
13. Appendix 19 states that “Some Muslim compromise: “If a hadith agrees with the Quran we will accept it, and if it contradicts the Quran, we will reject it!” Such premise proves that these people do not believe God’s assertions that the Quran is “complete, perfect and fully detailed.” The moment they seek guidance from anything besides the Quran, no matter how “right” it seems, they fall into Satan’s trap. For they have rejected God’s word and set up another god beside God” (p.665). The question is, by Khalifa using six ahadith that agreed with his view point of history did he fall into Satan’s trap? And if so, does that mean that he has set up another god beside God? Also does this mean that the Quran is not “complete, perfect and full detailed” if Khalifa had to rely on hadith himself?
18. Khalifa wants people to believe his selective view of history and also refuses to acknowledge the familiar history and methodology of how the Quran as well as the hadith were collected, compiled and then classified. What history do the submitters subscribe to in regard to the compilation of the Quran? The people who were involved in that compilation were also involved in the compilation of hadith. The two cannot be divorced and that is why perhaps Khalifa does not give any detail explanations of how hadith were all from Satan or their history.
14. The Quran states “Absolutely, we have revealed the reminder, and, absolutely, we will preserve it” (Surah al-Hijr 15:9). For 1400 years this verse according to the submitters was a lie! As the Quran had two extra verses added to it and yet the Quran said God would preserve it!
15. In Appendix 2 under the heading “Principal Duties of God’s Messenger of the Covenant” they list fourteen duties, the last being to “Establish a criminal justice system” (p.647). From the time Khalifa was born in 1935 until his death in 1990 he did not at anytime establish a criminal justice system. Also no country in the world so far has adopted his “criminal justice system”. Does this mean that God’s messenger of the covenant failed in one of his principal duties? Does that mean that another messenger will come in order to establish this “criminal justice system”?
17. Ironically Khalifa says “A criterion of the true submitters is that they will find nothing objectionable in the Quran” (p.xv). Yet he took two whole verses out of the Quran and interpreted it so radically that he founded another religion far from Islam.
Edited by: raushan on Wednesday, March 28, 2007 4:01 PM |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 3:54 PM
namaz
20. Another contentious issue for the submitters has been the salaah (or what they call the “Contact Prayers”) and how it has reached us without relying upon hadith given the fact that the Quran does not tell us how to perform the salaah. In Addendum A it states, “One of the common challenges … is: “If the Quran is complete and detailed, where are the details of the Contact Prayers (Salat)?” (p.712) In their total refusal to use any hadith whatsoever on this matter they claim that the prayers were given to us from Abraham (peace be upon him) (p.660 & 712), although we are not told how this has reached us. No Quranic or historical references are given.
21. In the matter of the number of rak’ah (units) of prayer for each salaah they have used complex and mind-boggling mathematics to come up with the number of rak’ah (units) of prayer which “miraculously” matches the number that we are currently performing for each prayer – all of this of course relates to the number 19. It seems that the answer came before the formula and calculations, and not the other way round as it was not until 1989 that they finally cracked the “code” of the number of rak’ah! As Appendix 9 states, “There is no dispute concerning the number of rak’ahs in all five daily prayers” (p.655), this statement was made well before cracking the “code” of the number of rak’ah as presented in Addendum A. The same methodology is used to explain the number of prostrations (sujood), bowings (ruku), sittings (tashahud) and rak’ah (units) for each prayer. However, nowhere are we told how perform prostrations (sujood), bowings (ruku), and sittings (tashahud)? We are also not told what needs to be recited in the prayer apart from Surah al-Fatiha. What do submitters recite in their prostrations (sujood), bowings (ruku), and sittings (tashahud) as this is not mentioned in the Quran?
http://www.allaahuakbar.in/article_read.asp?id=990 |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 4:52 PM
salam brother Raushan
I fully understand your view and agree with it also. As always your post is full of wisdom.
best wishes |
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Rakhtal
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 6:09 PM
quote:
I will give you all that as soon as you give me a voice recording of Quran done in 6th century. Or you can give me a video recording of the how it was written and collected at that time and prove it that no man-made-work involved.
So, without the voice recording of Qura’n or the video recording in 6th century, you and you people have NO ability at all to prove it!!! |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, March 28, 2007 - 11:34 PM
AOA all
Amazing debate from both sides 'bit like the kettle calling the pot black'.
in one corner we have those who would have us believe that they also trust God to preserve the Quran but then seem to think that God seems to have gone to sleep for 1400 yrs whilst the two suras were slipped in and RK needed to put God right on this issue.
Mean while the others accuse RK group of introducing extra quranic innovations into islam whilst proclaiming:
quote:
I am trying to say that Quran and Hadith both were written and transfered to the next generations in the best available technology of that time.
I see the hadith were transmitted and written in same manner as the Quran that a bloke called Bukhari 300 yrs later went around collecting sayings from thousands of people as to what their ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors allegedly heard the prophet or seen his actions.
Morever these rag tag of Bukhari collections actually portray the prophet as a paedophile and cruel man is neither here or there..as there are also lot of good things about the prophet. Anyway there is easy way around this illogicality well some of these saying are not reliable because...well they just are not!
Also could a knowldgeable one here give me the full references from the hadith as how to fully perform all the salaat.
regards |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 12:23 PM
quote:
So, without the voice recording of Qura’n or the video recording in 6th century, you and you people have NO ability at all to prove it!!!
Sweet Rakhtal,
Lets pray Allah the most High to give us ability to understand things in a simple way.
I dont think as most of times you didnt but at least for once you should agree that to prove anything you need sources related to the given subject.
What you are apparently missing is that you do not want us to quote anything other than the Quran. Everything else is satanic, you say, except, perhaps, the writings of Rashad Khalifa.
Unfortunately, you cannot quote the Arabic of the original Quran. You dont not have a clue. The only source is Rashad Khalifa's translation, the only one you seem to accept.
What you quote is not the Quran, but Rashad's interpretation of the Quran. Even his translation reflects his choice of words which in turn is his own personal interpretation of the Quran of which he has to.So plz suggest us what to do? |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 1:10 PM
welcome perv1
quote:
I see the hadith were transmitted and written in same manner as the Quran that a bloke called Bukhari 300 yrs later went around collecting sayings from thousands of people as to what their ancestors and their ancestors and their ancestors allegedly heard the prophet or seen his actions.
If one considers something authentic, it means it is genuine and of undisputed origin. Some hadith can be considered more reliable than others by some, but every hadith has to pass the test before considered as authentic .Thatswhy we have the provision and then methods to "check"their reliability before acceptence.This is not the case with Quran ,whose words are beyond any doubt and therefor we dont need to check its reliability.
quote:
Morever these rag tag of Bukhari collections actually portray the prophet as a paedophile and cruel man is neither here or there..
I ll not disgrace you by asking the meaning of paedophile but am sure that the background is highly influenced by those rotten minds who have started abusing the prophet of peace after loosing the war of ideology to Islam.
I d request you to quote from Bukhari accusing prophet for the same you listed in the post.
quote:
as there are also lot of good things about the prophet. Anyway there is easy way around this illogicality well some of these saying are not reliable because...well they just are not!
you can see,I read you,think over it,cross check it before reaching over any conclusion on your thoughts..its purely logical! isnt it? |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 1:26 PM
quote:
Also could a knowldgeable one here give me the full references from the hadith as how to fully perform all the salaat.regards
plz go through the below link for details and ask any knowledgable one near you if you need any further help.
http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundamentals/hadithsunnah/bukhari/008.sbt.html
Number of rakats
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
"The Prophet prayed eight Rakat for the Zuhr and 'Asr, and seven for the Maghrib and 'Isha prayers in Medina." Aiyub said, "Perhaps those were rainy nights." Anas said, "May be."
Saying surah al'fatihah
Yahya related to me from Malik from al-Ala ibn Abd ar-Rahman ibn Yaqub that Abu Said, the mawla of Amir ibn Kuraz told him that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, called toUbayy ibn Kab while he was praying. When Ubayy had finished his prayer he joined the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, and the Messenger of Allah put his hand upon his hand, and he was intending to leave by the door of the mosque, so the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "I hope that you will not leave the mosque until you know a sura whose like Allah has notsentdown in the Tawrah nor in the Injil nor in the Qur'an." Ubayysaid, "I began to slow down my pace in the hope of that. Then I said, 'Messenger of Allah, the sura you promised me!' He said, 'What do you recite when you begin the prayer?' I recited the Fatiha (Sura 1 ) until I came to the end of it, and the Messengerof Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'It is this sura, and it is the "seven oft-repeated" and the Great Qur'an which I was given.' "
Ruku and sujud
Narrated Abdullah ibn Mas'ud:
The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: When one of you bows, he should say three time,:"Glory be to my mighty Lord," and when he prostrates, he should say: "Glory be to my most high Lord" three times. This is the minimum number.
Said between Ruku and sujud
Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab from Salim ibn Abdullah from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messengerof Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, used to raise his hands to the level of his shoulders when he began the prayer and when he raised his head from the ruku he raised them in the same way, saying, "Allah hears whoever praises him, our Lord and praise belongs to You." He did not raise them in the sujud.
Position of sujud
Narrated Abdullah ibn Abbas:
Ibn Abbas reported the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) as saying: I have been commanded - according to the version of Hammad: Your Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) was commanded - to prostrate on seven (bones), and not to fold back the hair or the clothing.
Taslim
Narrated Wa'il ibn Hujr:
I offered prayer along with the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him). He would give the salutation to his right side (saying): Peace be upon you and mercy of Allah; and to his left side (saying): Peace be upon you and mercy of Allah.
Times of Prayer
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:
The Prophet used to pray the Zuhr at mid-day, and the 'Asr at a time when the sun was still bright, the Maghrib after sunset (at its stated time) and the Isha at a variable time. Whenever he saw the people assembled (for Isha' prayer) he would pray earlier and if the people delayed, he would delay the prayer. And they or the Prophet used to offer the Fajr Prayers when it still dark.
Abu Musa narrated on the authority of his father that a person came to the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) for inquiring about the times of prayers. He (the Holy Prophet) gave him no reply (because he wanted to explain to him the times by practically observing these prayers). He then said the morning prayer when it was daybreak, but the people could hardly recognise one another. He then commanded and the Iqama for the noon prayer was pronounced when the tan had passed the meridian and one would say that it was midday but he (the Holy Prophet) knew batter than them. He then again commanded and the Iqama for the afternoon prayer was pronounced when the sun was high. He then commanded and Iqama for the evening prayer was pronounced when the sun had sunk. He then commanded and Iqama for the night prayer was pronounced when the twilight had disappeared. He then delayed the morning prayer on the next day (so much so) that after returning from it one would say that the sun had risen or it was about to rise. He then delayed the noon prayer till it was near the time of afternoon prayer (as it was observed yesterday). He then delayed the afternoon prayer till one after returning from it would say that the sun had become red. He then delayed the evening prayer till the twilight was about to disappear. He then delayed the night prayer till it was one-third of the night. He then called the inquirer in the morning and said: The time for prayers is between these two extremes).. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 1:30 PM
salaam raushan
I will reply to each of your point as soon as I can. I will also give you hadith which portray the prophet in a far worst light than any enemy of Islam can.
However look at your two quotes:
quote:
quote:
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I am trying to say that Quran and Hadith both were written and transfered to the next generations in the best available technology of that time.
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Above and then:
quote:
Some hadith can be considered more reliable than others by some, but every hadith has to pass the test before considered as authentic .Thatswhy we have the provision and then methods to "check"their reliability before acceptence.
First you bracket hadith with the Quran as though they were both compiled and transmitted in a similar manner.
When the obvious is pointed out you come up with usual excuses that hadith followers come up.
regards |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 1:38 PM
oh..comeon my freind,
i ve not disagreed with you on the time gap,u see.
wassalam |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 10:17 PM
Salaam Raushan
I think if we knew each other outisde the net we would be good friends...despite our differing views.
of course you did not disagree with the time gap, but just look at your post again and see the impression you were trying to convey.
The link you gave did not tell me how to pray but was full of usual hadith nonsense such as slave girls being manmuitted (whatever that means) and hilarious stories like:
quote:
The Prophet said, "Then Allah enjoined fifty prayers on my followers when I returned with this order of Allah, I passed by Moses who asked me, 'What has Allah enjoined on your followers?' I replied, 'He has enjoined fifty prayers on them.' Moses said, 'Go back to your Lord (and appeal for reduction) for your followers will not be able to bear it.' (So I went back to Allah and requested for reduction) and He reduced it to half. When I passed by Moses again and informed him about it, he said, 'Go back to your Lord as your followers will not be able to bear it.' So I returned to Allah and requested for further reduction and half of it was reduced. I again passed by Moses and he said to me: 'Return to your Lord, for your followers will not be able to bear it. So I returned to Allah and He said, 'These are five prayers and they are all (equal to) fifty (in reward) for My Word does not change.' I returned to Moses and he told me to go back once again. I replied, 'Now I feel shy of asking my Lord again.'
Lets us look at this carefully. Is this not suggesting God & Prophet Mohd have no clue and require Prophet Moses to put them right. Do you really believe in rubbish like this? Do you not think it is insulting to God? But then Hadith followers seem almost blind to the insults against islam in Hadith. I think Shaitan cant believe his luck.
I think you are far more intelligent than me for you seem to be able work out (from your above references) how to perform salaat from beginning to end. To me they are just mish mash of few quotes which tell you very little in how to fully perform salaat.
Unless i manage to find the net (going away) will not reply for few weeks
regards |
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