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Posted - Thursday, October 28, 2004  -  10:34 PM Reply with quote

Thank you Ubaid, I agree 100%

If Mr. Aijaz means, “According to my belief, my idea or thought of God is proof of His existence” then it is right only for him, me or others like us but not for applying everywhere to convince everybody.
Dr. Akhlaq

Posted - Monday, November 1, 2004  -  8:21 PM Reply with quote
Now we know that the idea of God is always present in all human communities and civilizations throughout the known history and pre-history. There never was a society of Atheists in all human history. Hence he who asserts that there is no God, must bring his arguments.

The idea of GOD is proof of His existence.

Edited by: aijaz47 on Monday, November 01, 2004 8:25 PM

Posted - Monday, November 1, 2004  -  10:14 PM Reply with quote
I want to summarise/comment individually on the all, so far as I joined this discussion.

You have initiated the topic and throughout the discussion, the policy of “Blood is thicker than water” is dominant. Is this tuition or a discussion? If discussion, this is not a “group discussion” but “groups discussion”. I tried to involve all of us together. You are requested to please be with all the participants who are also lying in the way with open eyes. This is also one of the “Haquq-ul-Ibad” (Human rights) and is answerable at the “Day of the judgement”.

“Idea or thought of God is proof of His existence”. This means that God is just a thought (against majesty of God). The thought process due to the mental activity is affected by a variety of the factors, and varies between both the extreme ends. If we are unable to understand you, please make it clear.

He/she is right because of no clarification of the topic of the discussion and justification of the proof.
The topic has been changing its dress like “Arguments regarding the existence of God”, “Proof of oneness of God”, “Proof of existence of God” which are three different entities. Everybody has the right for clarification of any point regarding the question e.g. nature of the existence. So I favoured him/her for this problem to define clearly.

Pointed out my mistake and vice versa. Actually, following two points made me conscious.
1. Selecting only me unintentionally for the kindness. This does not mean that others are also wrong but according to me, as I have already pointed out; in this topic of discussion, the possibility of some potential against majesty of God can not be excluded.
2. Not using any word other than blasphemy.

Historical concept is “Ilmul-yaqueen”, as I have already pointed out, seems to be the only explanation. Now after Quran and Hadith, involvement of Allama Iqbal is more than enough for us to be united at one point. One who is a Allama (A great scholar, Philosopher) and has the ability to concentrate the summary of whole Islam i.e. “In, Kuntum, Tohibbun-Allah-a, Fattabe-oonee, Yohbibkum-u-Allah……” in his following single verse of poetry, must not be ignored.
Praise of His beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mandatory because Praise of God is incomplete without it.
Kee Muhammad se wafaa tu ne to ham tere hain
Yeh jehan cheez hay kia laoh ho qalam tere hain
These Urdu words mean, “If you are sincere to Muhammad (peace be upon him), not only this universe but the pen and board (kept by God) to write as you like, are yours”
Allama Iqbal also gave an idea, “Idea of Pakistan”. When he gave the idea, there was no Pakistan but when Pakistan came into existence, there was no idea but reality. I think, this example of “Idea of Pakistan” may help to some extent regarding this topic of discussion.

I request all to avoid the words like blasphemy and atheist because these words have gained the maximum sensitivity, as we all know.
In the end I apologize, if any body was shocked by the healthy criticisms on my part.
With best wishes, Happy Ramadhan and Eid Mubarak (in advance)
May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen!
Dr. Akhlaq

Posted - Monday, November 1, 2004  -  10:46 PM Reply with quote
According to me the use of the words "idea" or "thought" is wrong.

Posted - Tuesday, November 9, 2004  -  3:01 AM Reply with quote
Dear brothers and sisters, assalamu alaikum

I have been reading your exchanges above with interest and my comments are as follows:

As I understand, there are only one of two possibilities entailing our existence. We have either been created by an intelligent Creator or we were created by chance (the narural forces) as Darwin proposes in his book "The Origin of Species".

One of the supporters of the Darwin theory concedes "The probability of the formation of a Cytochrome-C sequence (by chance) is as likely as zero. That is, if life requires a certain sequence, it can be said that this has a probability likely to be realised once in the whole universe. Otherwise, some metaphysical powers beyond our definition should have acted in its formation. To accept the latter is not appropriate to the goals of science. We therefore have to look into the first hypothesis."

Some of you may be aware that Harun Yahya in his book "Evolution Deceit" has successfully disproved the Darwin theory in that we were created by chance and that we are ever evolving from one form to another.

As the Darwin theory is no longer upheld even by some non-believer scientists, does this not give us enough proof that we were created by an intelligent Creator, Allah.

Thus, if one seeks 100% proof of God's existence, doesn't that diminish the requirement to believe or have faith?


Posted - Thursday, November 18, 2004  -  4:31 PM Reply with quote
Salam To All

I want to make some comments on Saif's post.
After the advent of modern sciece and research, everyone agree now that darwin's philosophy is absurd and some of the skeletons were also thrown out of the British museum (in another evolutionary scam). There are numerous books available now regarding the scientific fallacies in the darwinism.

But if you put it as a proof regarding existance of God, I am afraid this is not exactly so.

If you see my last post, I stressed on the fact that God's existance cannot be proved, neither does it need to be proven. It is a historical fact, and in order to negate it, one must bring scientific, logical or whatever proof to negate His existance.

So we should say that Darwinism was a good try to negate the existance of God, but it failed. Hence the existance remained established.

What I am stressing is just a change in the way of thinking, because anything less than that will damage the importance of the historical fact.

For example, consider if some Mr. Tarwin proves that Das Kapital was not written by Karl Marx, and after some time, philosophers prove that his argument was wrong. Then we will say that the historical fact of "Karl Marx wrote Das Kapital" still upholds.

I hope my point is clear.

Posted - Wednesday, November 24, 2004  -  10:16 PM Reply with quote


First of all I could not understand the objectives of this topic of the discussion. However, so far as my knowledge is concerned, I try to explain the subject as under.

1.After saying Muhammad-ur-Rasool-Allah, the debate needs no more arguments regarding existence of God when the Holy Prophet, Muhammad (peace be upon him) already has solved the problem. We have to believe, according to Holy Quran the foremost criterion of the believers or one who has fear of God is “Youmenuna-Bilghaibe” (Baqra-3), that means one who believes in that one can’t see e.g. existence of God, what will be in the grave, Qiamat, heaven, hell and many others. Therefore, in Holy Quran man is said to be “Jahil” (believes in that he can not see) who took the responsibility blindly, given by God when all other creatures excused to take it.

2.If we want to confirm the existence of God, it is not difficult. Suppose, “Nauzbillah” all other things except man, in the universe are autonomous then the indirect evidences are “Man is helpless oneself, one’s all ambitions are not fulfilled, inspite of the latest technology and advanced researches doctors can not sometimes save a life, every one from servant to king has to die in spite of all the efforts” Why this is so? There is something behind, having the control and that super power is God.

The above-mentioned Qura’nic verse (Baqra-3) has the demand to nullify this discussion otherwise, next time we might fit a camera inside the grave, after the burial, to see “ what is happening inside” I think this is not our domain to explore such matters because these have a lot of potential of irreversible complicated confusions. I think we are crossing the boundaries, which is disliked by God. Recall the Qura’nic verse, “ Inna- araznal- amanat……………Inna-hu-kana-zaluman-jahula”. So we must be “Jahil to know” and be “zalim” to our “Nafs” by keeping it “Jahil” to know these logics or secrets. Recall Hazrat Adam when he was curious to go to that tree and we know the reaction of God. It must be remembered that we must not be “Jahil” in every aspect of Islam but in special aspects in which we are not supposed to know. The concept of “Haroof-e-Muqattea’t” also seems to be the similar as these are included in Holy Quran but we are kept ignorant. Now we can wait for the next more comprehensive approach according to the teachings of Islam.

May Allah help and forgive us, Aameen!
Allah Hafiz!

Dr. Akhlaq

Posted - Monday, December 6, 2004  -  9:30 AM Reply with quote
The Concept of God
Maulana Wahiduddin Khan

We have the entire universe before us. We see it, we experience it, and so are forced to believe in its existence. Even when a man rejects the godhead, he still believes in the universe. But when and how did it come into being? Explaining its existence as the creation of God is no final answer--so it is generally held--since the very next question which arises is if God made the universe, then who made God?

Can we believe in a causeless universe and a causeles God? Belief in a causeless God as the Creator of all things has more logic to it, in this world of cause and effect, than belief in a causeless universe and a non-existent God. It is by believing in a causeless Creator that we save ourselves from believing in the impossibility of a causeless universe.

Belief in God seems to many to be a very strange thing. But disbelief is even stranger. Sometimes it is argued that belief must rest on proof. But, from the purely scientific standpoint, nothing in this world can be proved or disproved. So far as believing in anything is concerned, the option is not between the proved and the unproved, but between the workable and the non-workable.

For instance, scientists in general believe in the concept of gravity. They do so, not because of proof of its existence, but because of the demonstrable predictability of effects. They do not know why gravity has the effect it has, or how it came into existence. They simply accept its existence as a useful theory.

This is the case with all scientific concepts, and belief in them does not mean uncritical acceptance of established as opposed to unestablished ideas. It simply means believing in a working hypothesis as opposed to an unworkable theory. Exactly the same principle is applicable to the concept of God.

In the matter of gravity, the choice for us is not between matter with gravity and matter without gravity, but between matter with gravity and non-existent matter. Since the concept of non-existent matter is untenable, because unworkable, we have opted for matter with gravity. From the purely academic angle, the same is true of the -.concept of God.

The universe itself does not have the ability to create. It can neither increase nor decrease itself by so much as a particle. As with all other scientific concepts, we must choose not between the universe with God and the universe without God, but between God and a non-existent universe. Since a non-existent universe is unconceivable, we must perforce opt for the concept of the universe with God.

Posted - Monday, February 14, 2005  -  9:29 PM Reply with quote

In different languages, why He, His or Him is used for God instead of She or Her?

Posted - Tuesday, February 15, 2005  -  5:33 AM Reply with quote
In Arabic, the pronoun used for 'it' is the same as the pronoun used for 'him'.

So if the holy Quran states:

هو الحي القيوم

It can be translated into English as:

He is the living, the established.
It is the living, the established.

In English normally 'He' is used to refer to God, so instead of the 'It' translation, 'He' translation is used.

Posted - Friday, February 18, 2005  -  5:07 PM Reply with quote
Since we seem to going round in circles. If it was posible to logically prove existance of God, a clear and concise argument would have emerged by now.
However as all the believers accept that God is everywhere, perhaps looking within ones self may eventually provide the answer i.e God is within us, if we only started to look for it.

Some comments have escaped my understanding could you please enlighten me:-
But, from the purely scientific standpoint, nothing in this world can be proved or disproved.
I hope this is not taken out of context by me. I could spend infinite time quoting examples things that can be proved or disproved. Although I must have misunderstood.

barber: wel duh id sort them out if they came to me...
the belever laughd and sed: EXACTLI! ^.^ god would sort out the wars if people came to him.

Are you suggesting various messengers did not go to God. Since they were involved in numerous wars

Posted - Wednesday, March 2, 2005  -  11:47 PM Reply with quote
QUOTE: In Arabic, the pronoun used for 'it' is the same as the pronoun used for 'him'. AND
In English normally 'He' is used to refer to God, so instead of the 'It' translation, 'He' translation is used.

I am sorry to say that you could not understand the point, which I wanted to be cleared. I meant, “Why 'It' for God is taken as ‘He’ not ‘She’”.

Posted - Saturday, March 5, 2005  -  10:00 PM Reply with quote

Allah is the most powerful and Allah's existance is seen everywhere

Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  12:55 PM Reply with quote
i am consulting this forum after quite a long period, i saw "perv1" comments that

"Some comments have escaped my understanding could you please enlighten me:-
But, from the purely scientific standpoint, nothing in this world can be proved or disproved.
I hope this is not taken out of context by me. I could spend infinite time quoting examples things that can be proved or disproved. Although I must have misunderstood."

the phrase meant that scientific standpoint is not on the basis that something can be proved, because all the things evolve through some natural phenomena which cannot be proved. for example, why the apple goes down from tree to earth? answer is that two masses have force of gravity between them. u can say that it is proved, but look further, why there is force of gravity between masses? no answer. why electrons revolve? no answer. why living things grow?
why the rainbow have seven colors, u can say that refraction and reflection porperties of light through tiny drops of water are responsible, but then why the light have reflection and refraction property?why the water droplets have reflection or refraction?what is the reason of reflection or refraction?
so the natural phenomena cannot be proved and all the things are based on these underlying natural phenomena.

Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  7:24 PM Reply with quote


Here are my own arguments but the translations have been taken directly from www.HarunYahya.com 's book An index to the Qur'an because of ease of finding the relevant translated Ayaat.

ALLAH exists and HE has certainly given us many signs.
We have sufficient proof for the Existence of ALLAH.

If any artheist is reading this ,

"Atleast someone has been for ever and that One is ALLAH. Even an aetheist can't deny this fact."
If this was not true then none of us would be here now.

Lets see does the Qur'an invite us to use the signs:

In the heavens and earth there are certainly Signs for the believers. (45:3)

And in your creation and all the creatures He has spread about there are Signs for people with certainty. (45:4)

And in the alternation of night and day and the provision Allah sends down from the sky, bringing the earth to life by it after it has died, and the varying direction of the winds, there are Signs for people who use their intellect. (45:5)

In the creation of the heavens and earth, and the alternation of the night and day, and the ships which sail the seas to people’s benefit, and the water which Allah sends down from the sky–by which He brings the earth to life when it was dead and scatters about in it creatures of every kind–and the varying direction of the winds, and the clouds subservient between heaven and earth, there are Signs for people who use their intellect. (2:164)

What are they waiting for but for Allah to come to them in the shadows of the clouds, together with the angels, in which case the matter will have been settled? All matters return to Allah. (2:210)

In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people with intelligence: those who remember Allah, standing, sitting and lying on their sides, and reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: ‘Our Lord, You have not created this for nothing. Glory be to You! So safeguard us from the punishment of the Fire.’ (3:190-191)

In the alternation of night and day and what Allah has created in the heavens and the earth there are Signs for people who guard against evil. (10:6)

Good land yields up its plants by its Lord’s permission, but that which is bad only yields up scantily. In this way We vary the Signs for people who are thankful. (7:58)

In short the signs of ALLAH are everywhere, and now in the age of science and technology, the complex microscopic structures and the magnificent creation everyehere and the order in the Universe is directly pointing to the existence of a single Creator Infinitely Powerful .

You can read the signs in the above web site.
Regarding the use of signs, see the Qur'an itself, it alone can be sufficient proof. But I would suggest understanding Classical Arabic to enjoy the matchless beauty and style of the Qur'an. Another miracle of the Qur'an. See the comments by Pikthal .

Posted - Thursday, September 22, 2005  -  9:25 PM Reply with quote
Let me put it this way.
Does any one know something which has a name but does not exist?

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