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Tariq Hashmi
PAKISTAN
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 Topic initiated on Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 11:14 AM 
Laal Masjid Saga
Who do you think is the major culprit?? The God-father and his protected child, the general who desecrated the Constituion rebelled against his masters, launched a coup and then acted as defacto judge to expel his prey, or the young boys and girls, some bordering infacy, who answered to what they thought was the call of the Qur'an?
Who do you think is to be held responsible for the wild massacre of the innocent children?
Who would buy into the claims of the killers?
Who do you think is going to make the scoundrels pay for their crime?
I am putting these questions here for i am desperate to know what others think is the end of story.
All input is welcome. |
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EnslavedSpirit
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:11 PM 
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 12:14 PM
I had posted these comments in another topic, on July 9th, 07 (before the operation bagan), my comments were in response to a participant's question that what can we say of a person who first calls for Jihad and then runs away from it (referring to the running away of Abdul Aziz, Khateeb of Lal Masjid). I copy my comments here:
With due respect, I disagree with the question that has been raised here, it is not a matter of "Jihad", so how can "running away" from it have any relevance here?
When there is a crime, or some unexplainable incident, one very useful way to investigate it is to analyze, "who is the major beneficiary from all this". You start your investigation from the major beneficiary and use that information as a working hypothesis for further investigation.
Who else has gained more from this incident politically, than the our President himself?
Because of the high correlation of Lal masjid disturbances with the CJ case, APC, May12th etc. it is highly probable that the Maulanas were actually the puppets whose strings were in the hands of the Govt. And now, most probably the Govt would kill them to remove any evidence of this and to declare itself champion against the extremists.
But while all of this is there, I wonder what were our more 'learned' scholars doing. When situation got out of hand, they went to talk with the maulana brothers, Yes. The Wifaqul Madaris took some action against them. Yes. Only when the situation got out of hand, the esteemed scholars issued statements saying the steps taken by maulana brothers are not legitimate according to Islam, Yes.....but I am very sad, because,
Had it been about 'women rights' they would have spoken much earlier and much harsher. They could have been helped in preventing it, instead of cleaning the mess now. For the future, they could have elaborated a code-of-ethics for the Khateebs, preventing them to use the Quran and Sunnah in vain, and particularly the word 'Jihad'. They should have now understood the structural problem in their education system which results in foolishly ambitious people who end up being instruments in the hands of the exploiters.
But...
Even now they are innocent enough to consider the maulana brothers as merely "naughty kids" and would suggest the Govt to act as "kind parents". And they will keep protecting and justifying the other maulana brothers in the country giving similar khutbas. Any criticism on the role of these esteemed scholars, would continue to be considered as "lack of love for Deen", and "an attempt to start a new Fitna" because people like me are "blindly influenced by west"...
But regardless of whoever has or has not influenced me, I am sad for my country and the state of religion in it... |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 2:12 PM
Refer to this issue ,we may assume there are three types of muslims around the world.
First,those who believe armed struggle is only for defence .To them the so called jihad is not correct.Moreover its not the right way to to establish a sharia based society.-------they do what they believe.
Second ,the group of people who believe that rest of the world is our enemy and an armed struggle is the only way/option to establish the law of God.--------they do what they believe.
Third is a bigger group who neither personally involve in armed struggle nor declare it wrong.They speak,write and cry on the street in the favor of armed struggle but never give their enemies a chance to taste their blood.
They play safe(in this world).-------They do not do what they believe. |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 2:40 PM
quote:
quote:
..I am putting these questions here for i am desperate to know what others think is the end of story.
All input is welcome.
They ''moral of the story''is most important part at the end of any story.We are people who love to listen,watch the story and at the end blame others for the wrong.
We used to take lesson even from a flying bird 500yrs ago not now.At that time we were simple human beings.Now We have become 'innocents' with the passage of time.
The Govt did what normally any govt does in such circumstances.Their actions are not designed according to sharia.Their forces are highly professional and trained well how to accomplish a mission.So blaming them is just a time pass.
Those who have soft corner for the insurgents and consider it islamic must justify the actions such as fighting without proper arms,using mosque as hideouts,using underage male and female as their army.
"collateral damage"is totally alien concept to Islamic tradition.No one is allowed to kill children,old and civilians even in the battlefield .
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Saturday, July 14, 2007 - 10:25 PM
quote:
Who do you think is the major culprit?? The God-father and his protected child, the general who desecrated the Constituion rebelled against his masters, launched a coup and then acted as defacto judge to expel his prey, or the young boys and girls, some bordering infancy, who answered to what they thought was the call of the Qur'an?
Who do you think is to be held responsible for the wild massacre of the innocent children?
IMHO, there is one more group that has been missed out, the parents of these children.
The general did what he does best under pressure from the Chinese or the Americans, rampant use of force under force.
The God father, the Mullah did what he knew best, taking out his repression on the whole world at large, feeding young minds with poison.
But what were the parents doing in all of this fiasco and infact much before this? Parents especially mothers love their children more than anything in the world. It is nature, a sparrow defends her nest against a snake if need be.
So where were the parents when the girls were given staffs in hands to go bully citizens. It seems hypocritical from the God father, the Mullah's part of Islam that girls cannot lead nations but can lead wayward men and women by use of force?
Where were the parents with their influence to ask their children to abandon the mischief mongor God father, who wanted revenge against the society for his repressed emotions?
We as a society are culpabale. We need to wrest power away from these Mullahs and these generals.
It is quite simple, for Salman Rushdie we will come out in protest and threaten to do or die. But when it comes to the real issues, why do we remain quiet?
Our hospitals are horrible, our education system in shambles, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer, we complain the US attacked Iraq, the US targeted its civilains, how many such voices did we hear against Saddam when he was persecuting his own people?
We as a collective need to speak, with the same zeal and zest on the "real" issues as we do so on issues like Salman Rushdie.
Untill then more children will be slaughtered, poisoned, sexually abused, physically beaten, whether it is done by the generals or the mullahs.
And you know what, the mullahs will use the word 'shaheed' and the generals will use memoirs to go down in history. But forgotten will be those helpless children.
I share your pain Brother Tariq, I really do.
Edited by: junaidj on Saturday, July 14, 2007 10:29 PM |
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raushan
UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
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Posted - Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 8:21 AM
"We were just frustrated youth, we were told how we should respond, how Islam should be spread. Their speeches and training was on these lines: the anti-Muslims fear death, so show them death. We were told: "Unke dil mein khauf paida karo (Kill so that you create dread in their hearts)." It was easy to fall for the propaganda to succumb to the idea of an Islamic revolution. Our legitimate anger was tapped for religious ends. A few of us protested because we knew Islam does not in any way sanction the death of innocents. We were punished and expelled. I was a marked man, I still am. For them, I am a kafir because I am anti-jehad. For the police, I am still a suspect; cops came searching for me after the July 11 blasts last year.
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20070723&fname=Cover+Story+%28F%29&sid=3&pn=1 |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 10:03 AM
Excerpt from Ghamidhi from shariah of politics.
O people who believe! Obey God and obey the Prophet and those of you who are in authority, and if you disagree among yourselves in any matter, refer it to God and the Prophet if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. This is better and more seemly as regards the consequences. (4:59)
He who sees something despicable in his ruler should bear it, for he who even slightly disassociates himself from the state authority and dies in this condition shall die the death of ignorance. (Bukha#ri#, No: 6646)
He who sees something despicable in his ruler should bear it, for he who even slightly disassociates himself from the obedience of the sovereign crown and dies in this condition shall die the death of ignorance. (Bukha#ri#, No: 6645)
In times of political anarchy and chaos, the Prophet (sws) has directed Muslims not only to refrain from participating in any activity against the state, but also to obey state authority with complete faithfulness and sincerity. On one occasion, regarding this issue, the Prophet (sws), on these very grounds, is reported to have told Hudhayfah (rta): ‘تَلْزِمُ جمَاعَةَ اْلمُسْلِمِينَ وَ اِمَامَهُم’ ([In such a state of chaos], you should remain attached to the state authority and to the ruler of the Muslims.)2Muslim 1847
Secondly, Muslims should be law abiding citizens of their country. Whatever laws are enacted should be obeyed in letter and spirit by them and in no way should they evade the law. Any disagreement, personal dislike, communal support or religious reservation should never lead them to breech the law, except if some law is enacted in open disobedience to the Almighty. The Prophet (sws) is reported to have said
It is your duty to listen and to obey [your rulers] whether you are in difficulty or at ease, whether willingly or unwillingly and even when you do not receive what is your right. (Muslim, No: 1836)
Whether they like it or not, it is obligatory on the faithful to listen and to obey their rulers except when they be ordered to commit a sin. If they are ordered so, they should neither listen nor obey. (Muslim, No: 1839)
Listen and obey even if an Abyssinian slave whose head is like a raisin is made your ruler. (Bukha#ri#, No: 6723)
The Prophet called us to pledge allegiance to him which we did. We had been asked to pledge to the following: ‘We shall listen and obey whether willingly or unwillingly whether we are in difficulty or at ease, and even when we do not receive what is our right and that we shall not contest the authority of our rulers’. The Prophet of God said: ‘You can only refuse their submission if you witness outright Kufr in any matter from them, in which you have a clear evidence from God’. (Muslim, No: 1709)
However, even in these circumstances, no Muslim citizen has been given the permission to revolt against the government unless he has the backing of a clear majority behind him. The reason for this is that if the majority does not support him, then such a revolt would not be against the government; on the contrary, it would be against other Muslim citizens, which according to the Shari#‘ah is ‘فََسَاد ِفى الْاَرْض’ (spreading lawlessness and anarchy in the society) – an offence punishable by death.
The Prophet (sws) is reported to have said:
When you are organized under the rule of a person and someone tries to break your collectivity apart or disrupt your government, kill him. (Muslim, No: 1852)
Moreover, it should also remain clear that if this revolt takes the shape of an armed uprising, then it should be subject to all the conditions of Jiha#d imposed by the Shari#‘ah. Consequently, no one is allowed to take up arms in rebellion against the government unless he fulfills these conditions. |
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islamskhalid
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 15, 2007 - 9:51 PM
The Lal Masjid tragesy is once again a manifestation of deep contradictions in our society. My paradigm goes as follows:
If one closely ponders over Quran and teachings of Holy prophet(sws)Islam's sharia on political life of muslim society is based on democracy. In other words democracy is the essence of poltical organisation of muslim society.
After Khulfa-e-Rashidoon(which was purely democratic system according to social norms of the time)muslims were robbed of the right given to them by Allah to choose their rulers without fear and oppression. Democracy was forcibly derailed into ruthless autocracy.
The early scholers and great jurists were aware and concious of this fact and hence always considerded Banu Ummayiah and Banu Abbas as 'GHASIBS'.
However there was a complication. As early muslim scholers drifted away from annals of powers a dichotomy resulted. Two parralel and dominant streams started flowing in muslim society i'e 'ruling class' and 'religiuos clergy'.
The piety which was halmark of early clergy gradually vanished and later clergy started insisting on their religious hagemony on muslim life. It manifested in the form of too much insistence on FIQH and following one school of jurists(taqleed). This was in fact later time clergy's concious or unconcious desire to rule the spiritual lifes of muslims. Now on one hand was ruthless MALUQYIAT and on the other spiritually ruling clergy which insisted on taqleed to entrap muslim life into their authority.
This pattern has continued in muslim society for centuries. The clergy chose to ignore that democracy was(and is)basically the cornerstone of political organisation prescribed by Islam.
The majority of muslims were reduced into voiceless masses.Once this state develops in any society you can not prevent the downfall. Within a span of two to three hundred years all of muslim Ummah saw itself humbled into slavery.
Unfortunately after gaining political independance it has relapsed into same dichotomy and NO DEMOCRACY. I hold modern muslim clergy to be responsible for this state. It is still insisitiong on contolling the spiritual life of muslims through straight jackets of Fiqh and taqleed. It is insisting on execising its authority and still not willing to recognise that democracy is in fact the political system prescribed by our religion.
Because of the confusion clergy has created regarding democracy, advantage has been taken by certain families or classes or military generals and muslim society has been enslaved into non-democratic and ruthless dictatorships.
Pakisan unfortunately is a classical example where military elite and religious clergy is not willing to submit to elected democratic governments. Unfortunately the rise of extremism and terrorism is the direct result of interplay of power game which these two classes has played over the last three decades. The society is now once again at the mercy of these two classes(military and civil bearucracy on the one hand and ignorant clergy on the other). These have robbed muslim society of democracy.
Generals are using each and every tactic to keep their power intact. Reigious clergy is asserting more and more to control political power in addition to already possessed spiritual power through insistence on taqleed.
The Lal Masjid phenomenon is a manifestation of fashism which clergy wants to impose in the name of Islam. They want to impose their pathological interpretation and understanding of Islam. Their understanding of Islam is punishments, oppression, sanctions, bans, regimentation and not compassion for fellow human beings,social justice,inculcation of moral values in the society,fighting for equality in muslim society, development of creative potential. They teach muslims to go and inundate life and not to live life to its full potential.
On the other hand are ruling classes, (military and civil elite and feudal polticians)completly devoid of any moral values who want to keep on enslaving the society as before.
Lal masjid is just a manifestation of this deep cleavage of muslim society. |
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Tariq Hashmi
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 6:56 AM
salams
Thanks to all for the insightful posts. What erodes you to naught these days is the plight of the children some died, some lost shelter, some lost thier mind, all the survivors have suffered trauma (compare the mental stres you take merely be watching some horrors on the tv screen with those experiencing it), girls have been raped (one claim says), the religion of God has been disgraced, and many people must have lost thier faith.
I agree that the clerics were making a mock of the directives of God but:
Comparing thier crime with that of those who have been ruthless judges, the general and his boys, who committed a crime that sents you to the other world if attempted by others.
They got hold of national assets, library for example but: Was their their plunder severer than the one launched by the generals over past sixty years????
I think that we have to curb the root of all social, religious and political problems in pakistan, the rule of the generals.
They give you guns making your realize that you are joining them in the war for Allah and then a couple of yards ahead shoot you down claiming to have killed a rebel.
I think that the blood of the innocent children slaughtered in the battle between two evil forces reflects light which can direct the innocent people of pakistan in future.
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 8:56 AM
I agree with your comments Tariq Sb,
But I also want to ask, Do we have bigger exploiters in our country, or is it that we have given them a better oppurtunity to exploit?
I want to ask, how can we get rid of the military rule??? What is the route for it?? the more time they spend in Govt, the more powerful, organized and entrenched their claws are, hence making it further difficult for their inexperienced (having spent virtually no time in govt) civil counterparts to compete with them.
We need democracy, Yes..
We need to educate people about our religion...Yes
We want the rule of law to prevail...Yes
We want the parliment to function...Yes
We want free and fair elections....Ofcourse!
But how?
What are the possible solutions for the mess our country is in?? And what is the practical way to go about those solutions?? Let us start thinking about these, please.
Salman |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:01 AM
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:04 PM
Irfan Hussein writes in his column:
http://www.dawn.com.pk/weekly/mazdak/mazdak.htm
Another question to which I would like a sensible reply is why, once seminary students had embarked on their lawless path six months ago, parents did not immediately flock to Islamabad to take their kids home. After all, the actions of the students were not exactly a secret. What kind of people would leave their children in the custody of militant clerics when it was obvious that sooner or later, the state would act? |
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Junaidj
CANADA
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Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 9:09 PM
quote:
Comparing thier crime with that of those who have been ruthless judges, the general and his boys, who committed a crime that sents you to the other world if attempted by others.
I am afraid I would have to disgaree here. Granted the General seized force and used it, but let us also consider that he did not act untill and unless pressured by the Chinese.
Also recall, how many delegations were sent to those foul Mullahs, including Maulana Taqi Usmani or so I have heard.
Please also note, the repeated pleas of many delegations, including the appeals of Bilqis Edhi. The blame lies solely on the mischief mongors who are now considered 'shaheed' as if 'shahadat' has become so cheap that any repressed soul has now started getting it.
http://patdollard.com/2007/07/06/report-red-mosque-leader-has-lost-command-and-is-being-held-hostage-by-talibat-militants-he-had-brought-in-to-help/
The delegation included wife of Qazi Hussain Ahmad, his daughter MNA Samia Raheel Qazi, Senator Dr Kausar Firdous, MNA Shah Abdul Aziz and Syed Muhammad Bilal. The delegation was informed that the Shoora held a meeting on Friday in which a new security plan was finalized. “Not to meet any personality is a part of new security plan,” the Shoora members said.
After getting no permission to go inside the seminary, Samia Raheel Qazi on a mega phone appealed to those at the helm of affairs of the seminary and the mosque to surrender and allow the injured and the women and children to come out.
The appeal was made by Bilqis Edhi, wife of Abdul Sattar Edhi, while talking to the journalists here Friday. Bilqis Edhi said that she could not get any opportunity to enter Lal Masjid and the Jamia Hafsa. “I made the announcements for six times from the localities very close to Lal Masjid that children be handed over to Edhi Foundation. These announcements would have reached the Lal Masjid administration. If the children come to me, I will take them with me, trace out their parents, and hand them over to their parents.”
To a question, Bilqis Edhi said she had made announcements on loudspeakers repeatedly for the students that life is blessing of Almighty Allah. It is given only for once. “I want Maulana Abdul Rashid should show flexibility in his attitude. I have made these announcements from six points. However, no positive reply has been received so far.”
She underlined that if the mosque administration hands over the children to her, the problem would stand resolved. “I have come here under the directives of Abdul Sattar Edhi. This is no way of Jihad or martyrdom,” she added.
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Anyway, on small, innocent children being brainwashed by these fould clerics, here is what I read in the context of Afghanistan.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6899608.stm
Afghan President Hamid Karzai has pardoned a 14-year-old boy caught wearing a suicide vest on his way to assassinate a provincial governor.
Rafiqullah had crossed the border from Pakistan and intended to kill Arsala Jamal, governor of Khost province.
Mr Karzai said Rafiqullah had been deceived by the "enemy of Islam" while attending a religious school.
********************
Not to mention what Hamas is doing in Palestine.
http://www.pmw.org.il/Latest%20bulletins%20new.htm#b240306
The Hamas promotion of terror and violence among Palestinian children continues unabated. This past week, Hamas placed pictures on its web site (see pictures below) of children in combat roles and combat dress, taken during "Palestinian Children's Festival" held in Yemen.
Edited by: junaidj on Tuesday, July 17, 2007 9:35 PM |
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drhennataimoor
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 10:46 PM
assalamoalikum
we have discussed and grieved and discussed and grieved , seen television and grieved ,but what can we pakistanis living abroad actually do so change what is happening , surely there must be something , some of us may have the answers , some may have strength and will power, all i need is to know some effort of mine that can bring a change , im praying that is one , i need some thing i can actually do that benefits the chaos in the country,
even a tiny drop of water has its importance when it falls in a thirsty piece of land , i wish i can be that tiny drop |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 11:52 PM
welcome to studying islam forums islamskhalid
and assalamu alaykum(have not added a smiley face as i normally do-and i hope you understand why-cannot smile on what i keep hearing from our dear land-and as you all mention here)
and more news tonite of the blood shed in the capital. we wonder what's coming up to our dear land and our loved ones.
presently we are in prayers and repentance in front of Lord-
can we say that the split of muslim ummah into sectors is also one major cause of such meloncholy caused to the muslims everywhere in the world..
hv also recvd the following in email
http://mail.google.com/mail/?attid=0.1&disp=inline&view=att&th=113cf97e86561b36 |
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