| Author | Topic |
Nauman
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 5:56 PM 
As-Salaamu Alaikum Roswell,
Let rephrase the scenario for you.
X country is oppressing the Y country. Does the Y country have a right to kill the president of the X country in a hope to bring good to the whole Y nation?
As you can see the president is of the other country; so there is no question arises of mutiny.
As-Salaamu Alaikum Oosman,
The Ahadith those you quoted belong to the Muslim collectively living under a single ruler or government. These all are discouraging the disunity in a nation.
Here we are talking about two different countries with two different rulers; one is oppressing the other without any justification or for its own agenda. What the oppressed nation do in this situation? What if they believe that killing the president will bring relief. Just as you said: “civil war, chaos and anarchy will come out of this”. You should remember here that this is not the concern of the oppressed country at all. The above probability of “civil war, chaos and anarchy” is the hope to bring the oppressed nation to peace.
I hope you get my point now. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, November 15, 2005 - 6:54 PM
| I do not know the answer to this. |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 5:25 AM
| well, Mr Nu'man I think that Ruler May be Killed but ONLY when Both countris are AT WAR. |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:17 AM
As-Salaamu Alaikum Mr. Ibrahim,
Thanks for your reply.
What I felt is that people perceived me as a violent individual. I condemn violence in all form. Anyone could have asked this question at some point in our life. It is a question just like any other; I happen to be the one who asked it. This is as simple as that.
God Bless Us All! |
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Roswell
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:23 AM
Salaam Nauman,
Let consider this scenario at lower level. Lets say in my neighbour, there is a home leader who is rude, strict, pain for his family. Can I kill that person for the sake of my neighbour's "good" and to make them out of the pain they have been through?
Regards, |
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Roswell
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 7:26 AM
What I felt is that people perceived me as a violent individual.
I dont for sure  |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 12:08 PM
As-Salaamu Alaikum Roswell,
There is a fundamental flaw in your scenario when it is compared to the one I posted. If you compare the both scenarios and consider two neighbors as two countries; you can clearly see that no country [neighbor] is interfering in other’s affairs.
So, why to fight? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 1:33 PM
Nauman,
The scneario you described is exactly how World War 2 started. Some country killed the prince or ruler of Austria, then every one started fighting and soon the whole world was fighting.
I do not like this approach, and I do not see what 'good' can possibly come out of it.
Can you give any examples from history where this approach was successful? |
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Roswell
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 3:28 PM
Salaam Nauman,
I think you didn't get the point. There is no neighborhood issue per se. The actual point is of killing. Now I put my scenario again and answer me, will you kill your relative even everyone knows that he is a cruel harh beast for his family? Will you just kill him for good? Or there is another way out?
You have dichotomous mindset for that matter however there is another way out. There always is. Continuing the scenario, you can have the cruel man arrested, you can make him stand in front of the world. Similary, when a country thinks that other country is persecuting people or whatever reasons, there is united nation which can take care of, there is political pressure that helps, there is world judicial body........so why only two options? killing and not killing?
Regards, |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, November 16, 2005 - 6:02 PM
As-Salaamu Alaikum Dear Roswell & Oosman,
I like to draw your attention to an important point here.
Every forum has a purpose. I think you are missing the whole point of the forum here. My intention was to find out the answer of my question. Let me put the question from the different angle for you both.
Does assassinating the president of the oppressing nation amounts to disobedience of God directives?
I think I have found the answer in Mr. Ibrahim reply.
What you have initiated is a totally different debate. I hope we all understand this untill now. |
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Roswell
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 5:36 AM
Salaam,
I dont think that I've misunderstoof your point. Its just I was writing from different angle. You know sometimes direct answer doesn't work out.
Does assassinating the president of the oppressing nation amounts to disobedience of God directives?
In normal cirumstances(thats what your actuall question was). Yes.
What you have initiated is a totally different debate.
I dont think so but anyway.
Regards, |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 7:17 AM
As-Salaamu Alaikum Roswell,
I am glade that you have understood the real purpose of the forum that we have already acheived.
>> when a country thinks that other country is persecuting people or whatever reasons, there is united nation which can take care of, there is political pressure that helps, there is world judicial body........so why only two options? killing and not killing?
Are you referring here “Persecuting” as “Putting political pressure” Or “Military Conflict”? |
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Roswell
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 7:56 AM
W.salaam,
Posted by Nauman
"I am glade that you have understood the real purpose of the forum that we have already acheived." Lol, well I've enough experience of posting at forums. You can catch me at www.forums.understanding-islam.org. Precisely it meant, there is not point as understanding the purpose of forums. I dont mean to offend you. You konw me don't you? 
Posted by Nauman
"Are you referring here “Persecuting” as “Putting political pressure” Or “Military Conflict”?
I'm referring this in the same manner you implied as 'opressing'.
Regards,
Roswell
Edited by: roswell on Thursday, November 17, 2005 5:50 PM |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, November 17, 2005 - 9:14 AM
As-Salaamu Alaikum Roswell,
>> I dont mean to offence you.
No, you did not offend me.
>> so why only two options? killing and not killing?
If you read my replies I never said that this is the only option in every conflict. You can see yourself that the assassination here is totally based on the “Hope Of Peace in Land Again” and ending the brutal conflict i.e. Military Conflict.
Regards. |
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jhassan
CANADA
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Posted - Sunday, November 20, 2005 - 1:17 AM
| Of course, it's permitted. Qur'an explicitly allows the killing of someone (presidents included) who commits murder and/or spreads corruption on earth. This position is permitted because the converse is forbidden [Qur'an 5:32]. |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, November 21, 2005 - 7:38 AM
| well, Dear jhassan, it's NOT permitted Bcoz verse 32 of surah 5 is telling something else. Wud U mind telling us that Where, according to U, Qur'an has allows that & Who will have this authority. As I've said earlier that Even in the Allowed cases ONLY the Govt has the killing Authority. |
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