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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 7:53 AM 
Sister Nida:-
Quote:-Brother usmani, the fact is that the word "Sunnah" means "practice". It does not mean "a spoken word", etc. It refers only to acts, not words.
So can we say that the sahabah not used to follow the verbal instructions of prophet(pbuh) (nauzobillah) and used to told Him that no Sir we are not simply going to follow you like that .Lets the Quran revealed on this issue and you must act on it than only we will follow it.
Could you please give just one example like that.
Edited by: usmani790 on Wednesday, December 13, 2006 7:58 AM |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 10:00 AM
Oosman
Quote:-The only debate is that what is the word of the prophet. The holy Quran contains enough examples of the words of the prophet.
Quran is the words of Allah not the words of Prophet(pbuh).
And if this is the case then why Allah said in Quran that obey Prophet in many places .Further more where ever its come that obey Allah is always followed by obey prophet but there are many places in Quran where it comes only obey prophet .Allah only wish to show us that one should follow the prophet even what He says may not be found in Quran.(Allah knows the best)
Quote:- Why take some fake made-up and corrupt story (hadith) and use it as word of prophet? Why is there a need to take something that is doubtful and bogus and use it as Islamic law?
I have no daught that the most of ahadith in bukhari and Muslim and many other are actually the words of Prophet (pbuh).Quran in clear words ask us that obey and follow the prophet(pbuh).How can it be possible that Allah will ask us to follow and do some thing and He will make its discovery impossible. Sorry brother you can think like that for Allah.I have full trust on Allah.The ahadith are there to obey the commands of Allah who is All Mighty All Wise. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, December 13, 2006 - 3:30 PM
usmani790,
well, the holy Qur'an is words of Allah, however it also does quote the prophets at many times, and sometimes a verse will start like this : say to them (qul) - These are the words of the prophet.
If I recall your previous posts, you said you follow the sunni hadith because it appeals to you more and you are not very comfortable with shia hadith. If that is correct, then you are only following your whim on what you think is correct. This is such a serious matter that one must do more than just follow the whims of the heart, you must try to back up your whim with scientific study and research.
I have read Abu-Hurariah was often rebuked by Aisha for making up hadith. I have read he used to accept gifts when he was governor and Umar khalifah rebuked him for that. After reading all this, I have doubts about him, and same goes for other narrators. I have read Imam Bukhari was politically biased. How can I blindly accept their hadith after reading these things about them? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006 - 4:06 AM
quote:
So if we're following the Sunnah, we're in fact following the Ahaadeeth because the Ahaadeeth consist of the Sunnah.
This is not necessarily true because Sunnah can be contradicting Hadeeth. Hadeeth may or may not consist acts of Sunnah. How do you judge whether a hadeeth is part of sunnah or just fabricated is the big question. If you are like usmani, you will blindly follow the hadeeth that appeals to you (he follows the sunni traditions since shia traditions do not appeal to him).
I am not against hadeeth like you put it, but I am against blindly following hadeeth. If it is verified without doubt that hadeeth is authentic, then there may be no harm in following it. However it is a difficult task, and just because a hadeeth is in a Sahih book does not make it authentic. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006 - 10:45 AM
salam brother usmani
Many thanks for your detailed reply.
Just one thing, brother, with due respect.If the starting point of discusison is "I am right an you are wrong" then the purpose of debate is lost.As I see it, I would like to exchange and discuss my views and question other people's views.I hope I can learn with an open mind.
I have posted my understanding and defination of Sunnah and Hadith. I would be grateful if you could define sunnah and hadith, according to your understanding.
The two additional sources of religion of shariah mentioned by you are ijmmah and ijtehad.
Regarding ijmmah,when and about what? if today the ummah developed ijmmah that eating non halal meat is ok, will it become an acceptable practice or part of religion. Why did Allah give us Divine guidance, if ummah could formulate regulation by consensus?
Shiaats belief in hadith source, that says Prophet PBUH said three times namaz, even without travel or war, so they say zuhr and asr together and maghrib and Isha together.Are we saying that ijmmah of scholars of a different sects, defining regulations for their individual sects.All these sects produce ahadith supporting their views, so are we saying a different regulation for different sects.
If we accept this then the value and importance of Qur'an is compromised.
Ijtehaad, can be used to find answers for simple queries, but not formulate shariah. For example. what we recite in namaz in third and four rakaats after Fatiha. There is no concrete guidance. some will say fatiha is enough others will say add some other verses after Fatiha as we do in the first two rakaats. Ijtihaad may mean one person doing something and the other doing another according to their understanding. Are we saying that our religion shariah is so flexiable and accepts different variants for different individuals.
In my very limited understanding, Allah has not created man blind and ignorant. Divine guidance has been given in those matters where there was a need that human beings will find difficulties in finding solution him self. When we look at Shariah, the Qur'an has given extreme punishments for 5 important crimes.
According to sister Nida, ijtehaad in itself can only take place when their is ijmmah.Thus in practical reality their is no ijtehaad but ijmmah.
Let us look at our participants of forum, we seem to have three main schools of thought.
1. those who think hadith can be used to determine shariah and regulations.
2. Those who totally nagate hadith.
3. Those who believe that the source of religion is QUr'an and sunnah and hadith is the historical record of Prophet PBUH life, likes and dislikes, and provides explanations given by prophet PBUH of QUr'an and sunnah.
So my very dear brother in Islam where is the ijmmah of the ummah on hadith and its authority.Which is a prerequisite of your defination.
I think, if we tried to define sunnah, we will find we may have different definations, may be even different list of sunnah, in this forum we have participants who believe that sunnah is not essential and believe in Qur'an solely.
Allah knows best |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:00 AM
Quote:-If you are like usmani, you will blindly follow the hadeeth that appeals to you.
I have never said that I follow the ahadith blindly.Not even this but the Religion Islam I am not following it because I born in Muslims.I have study it and other the religions as well and finally I have found that the best religion to follow is Islam amoung all other religions.
I am not saying to any body to blindly follow the ahadith.Firstly we need to establish that following ahadith is actually is following Prophet(pbuh) and following Prophet is a actually following Allah.
And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)
Unlike the Quran ahadith are not all reliable thats true.So do we forget about all the ahadith?We are not capable to know which hadith is reliable and which is not.So we must ask the people to whom we knows that they are reliable people and also they are qualified as well in the religion.
''So ask the people of remembrance if you do not know(16:43)
Now I will come to the actual cause why some people oppose the ahadith.Because they are not ready to follow the instructions given in some ahadith.Like travelling women,Hijab of men and women,free mixing of man and woman,praying in the mosque and so on.
But this not good thing to do,no one in this planet could follow the 100% instructions given in the ahadith.We follow how mush we can and the one we can not follow ask forgiveness to Allah that we are weak so one day may Allah give us some more strength to do things better.But if we will start opposing the ahadith, then surely we are making Allah unhappy.who can afford it. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006 - 11:23 AM
Brother Waseem
Quote:-, with due respect.If the starting point of discusison is "I am right an you are wrong" then the purpose of debate is lost.As I see it, I would like to exchange and discuss my views and question other people's views.I hope I can learn with an open mind.
I apologize for any thing I have said to you wrongly.You are right brother,we all are learning things from each other.I thank you for highlighting my mistake.I have go now I will come back to you soon.
Allah Hafiz |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, December 15, 2006 - 1:47 PM
| In that acse I misunderstood your explanation.I apologise for it. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006 - 6:51 AM
Walaikum Salam brother Waseem
Quote:-I have posted my understanding and defination of Sunnah and Hadith. I would be grateful if you could define sunnah and hadith, according to your understanding.
Here how I understand Sunnah and Hadith
Sunnah
“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the following of Ummah is Sunnah.
“Confirmation” in this definition is termed in Arabic as Taqreer. What is meant by this term is like somebody said something, or acted in a particular manner, and his saying or act came to the knowledge of the Holy Prophet (pbuh ) and he either confirmed it in express words or remained silent without given any indication of disapproval. Such silence, being an implied approval of the Holy Prophet (pbuh ) is also included in the term Sunnah.
Hadith
Ahadith is the wrriten record of Sunnah.It also contain some information which won’t be considred as Sunnah,Because it is not for the following of Ummah.
Quote:-The two additional sources of religion of shariah mentioned by you are ijmmah and ijtehad.
When I said Ijma I mean Igma of Sahabah.In the matter of deen if we can not find a clear solution from Quran and Sunnah then we must refer to Ijma of Sahaba.If the solution is not found in the Ijma of Sahaba. then the Ijtahad will took place.
Quote:-Regarding ijmmah,when and about what? if today the ummah developed ijmmah that eating non halal meat is ok, will it become an acceptable practice or part of religion.
If any order is already there in Quran and Ahadith then no one have authority to changed it.
Quote:-Shiaats belief in hadith source, that says Prophet PBUH said three times namaz, even without travel or war, so they say zuhr and asr together and maghrib and Isha together.Are we saying that ijmmah of scholars of a different sects, defining regulations for their individual sects.All these sects produce ahadith supporting their views, so are we saying a different regulation for different sects.
Brother you need to check this out from the people whom have good knowledge of Quran and Ahadith and they also must be well qualified in religious knowledge.Brother I will suggest you to keep in touch with such people on regular basis.
This work one only will do it if deen is his priory .If any one will see Allah on the day with such a confusion he has to prove Allah that he has did all his effort to remove these confusion and find the truth.
Quote:- Ijtehaad, can be used to find answers for simple queries, but not formulate shariah. For example. what we recite in namaz in third and four rakaats after Fatiha. There is no concrete guidance. some will say fatiha is enough others will say add some other verses after Fatiha as we do in the first two rakaats. Ijtihaad may mean one person doing something and the other doing another according to their understanding. Are we saying that our religion shariah is so flexiable and accepts different variants for different individuals.
I think this is not Ijtehaad this is how Imans understood the deen through Quran and Sunnah.Specially on this issue all four medhab are following the way of prophet(pbuh).
Quote:-In my very limited understanding, Allah has not created man blind and ignorant. Divine guidance has been given in those matters where there was a need that human beings will find difficulties in finding solution him self. When we look at Shariah, the Qur'an has given extreme punishments for 5 important crimes.
Brother have a look on the followings which I copy from some article.
There are specific injunctions in the Holy Qur’ân about sale, purchase loans, mortgage, partnership, penal laws, inheritance, matrimonial relations, political affairs, problems of war and peace and other aspects of international relations.
Likewise the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) deals with the economic, social, political and legal problems in such detail that voluminous books have been written to compile them. How can it be envisaged that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) entered this field in such detailed manner without having any authority or jurisdiction? The injunctions of the Holy Qur’ân and sunnah in this field are so absolute, imperative and of mandatory nature that they cannot be imagined to be personal advices lacking any legal force.
Quote:-Let us look at our participants of forum, we seem to have three main schools of thought.
1. those who think hadith can be used to determine shariah and regulations.
2. Those who totally nagate hadith.
3. Those who believe that the source of religion is QUr'an and sunnah and hadith is the historical record of Prophet PBUH life, likes and dislikes, and provides explanations given by prophet PBUH of QUr'an and sunnah.
If you see how the Ummah is following your above there school so according to my knowledge following statistics will be observed.
1)More than 90%
2)Less than 1%
3)Less than 0.0000001% (in fact followers of Javaid Ahmad Gahmdi only following this, so it may be more less in reality)
Quote:-So my very dear brother in Islam where is the ijmmah of the ummah on hadith and its authority.Which is a prerequisite of your defination.
Have you seen the Ijma?Do our own study if think is not correct. |
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ibrahim
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006 - 7:04 AM
quote:
Brother Ibraaheem, I know that the Prophet (SAW) had said that he was going to leave two things behind: The Holy Qur'an and his Sunnah. But the fact of the matter is that Ijma' and Qiyaas are also sources of Islamic law because they are derived from the Qur'an and Sunnah themselves. e.g., the Qur'an does not prescribe a punishment for drinking wine, but through Ijma' only do we get to know that the punishment is 80 lashes, which, if I'm not wrong, was proposed by 'Ali (RA).
Sister Nida, It loks that U've NOT tried to understand FULLY my explanations about IJMAA' & QIYAAS, plz Read them again carefuly. thanks.
Ijmaa' (of Ummah) is the Process thru which we've recieved both Quran & Sunnah & Ijmaa' of Scholors is a NOTHING thing. It had never happened in our WHOLE history of more than 1400 yrs.
In ur Given Exmpl. Ijmaa' is bringing an Addition in Quran & Sunnah. If a Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) CANNOT ADD/Subtract something then How Ijmaa' CAN?
plz Note that the punishment for drinking wine was Diff. in the ERA of Prophet & was 40 lashes in the Era of Hazrat Abu Bakr & There are MANY Scholors After Harat Umar who have DIFF. opinion in this regard. Why Not u've a Research on it?
quote:
Qiyaas is also a source of Islamic law, but it is done on an individual basis, and therefore in order for Qiyaas to become law, Ijma' has to be performed on it. Drugs are considered Haraam today through the practice of Qiyaas only. And by the way, Qiyaas is different from Ijtihaad. The former is based on Asl, Far and Illah, whereas the latter is simply the use of one's intellect in a certain matter/issue.
U r right that Qiyas is Done on Individual Basis so the Law based on Qiyas Shud be ONLY 4 that person who is Doing it OR 4 those who agree w him. Am i right sister?
A Qiyas can only become a National LAW provided their Parliament passes it. Otherwise it'll remain a personal Opinion.
No no, u r Not Right here. Ijtihaad can ONLY be done on the Basis of Qiyaas (based on Quran & Sunnah) & Qiyas is NOT possible without using Intellect. How wud U derive a Relation between Asl & Far'? How can U do it without using ur intellect?
quote:
And the Holy Qur'an itself, as many scholars understand it, points out the four sources of Islamic Law:
"O you who believe! Obey Allah (Qur'an), and obey the Apostle (Sunnah), and those charged with authority amongst you ('Ijma' or the consensus of scholars' opinion); if you differ in anything among yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Apostle ('Qiyaas' or analogy based on the Qur'an and Sunnah)..."
I'm afraid sister, this Verse DOESN'T PROVE ur Pt. of View. It may be ur Understanding of the Words "and Obey those charged with authority amongst you" that it means "Ijma' or the consensus of scholars' opinion" BUT it's NOT the Actual Meaning of these words. My Simple Objection on ur Understanding will be that "How the consensus of scholars" will FALL in the category of "Obey those charged with authority amongst you"? What Authority these Scholors have? OR it means that Only People of Authority can do Ijtihad/Qiyas & Ijma is Concensus of these type of People?
One of ur Pt. is Right from this verse that I've Described earlier That Only THAT Qiyas will be Followed which will be approved by those "who are charged with authority amongst us" & these days this implies to "parliament" only.
Wassalaam, and Allah knows best. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, December 18, 2006 - 11:35 AM
In my humble opinion, Qiyaas is an individual interpretation of a matter, which has not identical but similar explanation in Qur'an and Sunnah. Ijtehaad is an individual interpretation based on a matter , where we have no similar example in Qur'an and Sunnah.
The definition of deen is that it is an " Abad i hidayat" Divine Guidance sent from Allah to the people through His Prophets and messengers.
How can human intellect become a source of religion.It defeats the definition of deen. We can do Qiyaas and Ijtehaad but it may be different for one person and different for other. SO what will remain the authencity of deen. Deen can not be man made.
Ijmmah can be one of the three
1. Ijmmah of ummah that something is from Qur'an
2. Ijmmah that something isfrom Sunnah.
3. Ijmmah that it is neither in Qur'an and Sunnah, but ijmmah on an individual scholars qiyaas or ijtehad.
If ijmmah is on QUr'an then we are agreeing that something is in QUr'an thus the source of religion remains Qur'an and not Ijmmah.
If the ijmmah is that something is from Sunnah then again we are agreeing that the source of religion is sunnah and not Ijmmah.
If the Ijmmah is on a scholar's qiyaas or ijtehaad. Then again it is an individual person's intellect. It cannot be divine guidance from Allah. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 4:35 AM
Brother Ibrahim
Quote:-If a Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) CANNOT ADD/Subtract something then How Ijmaa' CAN?
What is your source to say that Authentic Hadith of Prophet (pbuh) cannot ADD/Subtract.If you can not give a satisfactory reply on that with the help of Quran and Sunnah, so it will means that you give more importance to yours scholars than Quran and Sunnah.
May be you get away here by not replying or give a answer which is not backed with Quran and Sunnah,but get ready to answer this to Allah on the day when no one can run away.
Edited by: usmani790 on Tuesday, December 19, 2006 4:36 AM |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, December 19, 2006 - 12:23 PM
Respected brother in Islam salam
you have quoted
Sunnah
“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the following of Ummah is Sunnah.
So every word and action of the prophet pbuh is sunnah, and if deen is Quran and Sunnah, then they are also deen.
Brother! the regulations for prophets of Allah, their accountability for small mistakes (un-intentional) is different from those of the common man.
Tahajad namaz was compulsary for the prophet pbuh, not for the ummah. The stipulation for marriges for the prophet pbuh, the reasons for them, the regulations for divorce ( prophet pbuh could not divorce them) and the regulations for the wives of the prophet pbuh (they could not marry someone else)are unique for the prophet pbuh.None of these regulations apply to ummah, so how can we say that every action and word of prophet pbuh is his sunnah, which would then mean it is essential following.
What about this hadith from sahih muslim, kitab ul fazil
" I am a human being like you, when I give you any religious commands, accept it. When I say something of my personal opinion, remember tht I am nothing but a human being. I had only guesed. Do not accept from me that which is based on guess work.[regarding the fertilisation method of date palms] However when I convey something from Allah, follow it because I will never attribute anything falsely to Allah falsely. As regards your worldly affairs, you are more knowledgeable then I am." I guess you will term it zaif or unreliable as it is contradictory to your definition of sunnah.
brother , according to this hadith, we are to follow the prophet pbuh in religious matters and not every matter, according to him.
What about prophet pbuh likes and dislikes. I quoted the incident about Khalid bin Wleed, eating a lizard, that the prophet pbuh disliked, he asked is it haraam, the prophet pbuh said no, and he ate it. He is a well respected sahabha.was he breaking sunnah?
Regarding the authencity of hadith. Firstly, the most important sahabha that we can think about are hazrat abu bakr and hazrat Umar, hazrat Ali and hazrat Usman . We can see how keen they are in getting QUr'an copied and circulated, they do not make any efforts to organise hadith.
Qur'an addressers us as the believers, muslims, followers of our prophet Mohammad pbuh, not as sunni, shiaat, malike, shafi, humbli or hanfi.
Shiat form a sizeable fraction of muslims, in Iran, Iraq, Syria, Lebanon, Pakistan. They interpret Islam according to hadith from hazrat Ali and their chosen sahabha. They cannot find authencity for their beliefs from Qur'an of course.
When it comes to Qur'an, ummah has ijmmah about the content of Qur'an, we may have differences in the interpretations of these verses. SO how does sects come about. through hadith. The ones that agree with a particular sect are authentic, the rest are zaif or unreliable. When I ask you about hadith from Hazrat Ali that shiaat believe, you would say they are not authentic. and vice versa. I repeat where is the ijmmah of ummah on authencity of the content of hadith.
One thing further brother,Where in Qur'an has Allah substantiated hadith as a source of deen. On one hand we define deen as abdi hidayat, divine guidance to mankind through prophets. kept in Loh i mahfooz and brought down by Hazrat Gabriel. The Qur'an that Allah has taken responsibility of looking after. On the other hand we have stories, transmitted through generations, peoples narratives, not even written with permisison of prophet PBUH. not written in the life time of prophet pbuh. not written for years after the death of prophet pbuh. The difference is immense. We believe Islam is the final religion. Why would Allah use such strict means for the nazool of Qur'an and then let rest of teh deen be transmitted in such a casual way through hadith.
When I spoke to one scholar about the authencity of hadith, he replied, the hadith that are against the content of Qur'an and Sunnah are zaif. So we are saying that this is a source of religion which actually contains hadith that contradict Qur'an the word of ALlah and sunnah of prophet pbuh. How we decide right from wrong. The ones that seem more agreeable to our belief or are sect. the rest are zaif.
My respected brother in Islam. I am amazed, sitting at home you have looked into the hearts and mind of every muslim in the entire world, approx 1 billion and come up with statistics of some thing like 0.0000001% believe in Javaid Ghamidhi. I wish I could collect and present statistics like this too. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 10:55 AM
Brother Waseem
I wrote:-
Sunnah
“A word spoken, or an act done, or a confirmation given by the Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for the following of Ummah is Sunnah.
You wrote:-So every word and action of the prophet pbuh is sunnah, and if deen is Quran and Sunnah, then they are also deen.
Reply:-Brother please read what I have said carefully than say some thing.Your long comentray on what I have not said is wasted.I said (for the following of Ummah).I think the words in braket makes it very clear.
Quote:-One thing further brother,Where in Qur'an has Allah substantiated hadith as a source of deen.
Reply:-Ok, where in Quran has Allah substantiaated Quran as a souce of deen.
Have a look on the following verses,these versces I have quoted for you before as well,never mind see them one more time.Actually the first verse is alone good enough to answer you.
And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)
And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger and transgresses His limits, He shall admit him to Fire where he shall remain forever. (4:14)
And whoever makes a breach with Allâh and His Messenger, then Allâh is severe in punishment. (8:13)
And whoever disobeys Allâh and His Messenger has gone astray into manifest error. (33:36)
And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)
And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)
Today we have Quran the words of Allah and today we have ahadith the words of Prophet(pbuh).So all the authentic ahaith are as source of deen as Quran.My last sentence is in full compliance with the verses above. What else you need brother.I am not saying on baseless whims like you said here without quoting a single verse of Quran.
If this is not enough for you and you further wish to discuss this important issue with me,I will request you to please go to the forum (Wrong Understanding of Sunnah in this course) in the couse forum and see what have already been discussed there.
Quote:-My respected brother in Islam. I am amazed, sitting at home you have looked into the hearts and mind of every muslim in the entire world, approx 1 billion and come up with statistics of some thing like 0.0000001% believe in Javaid Ghamidhi. I wish I could collect and present statistics like this too.
You could prove me wrong if you could find just five well known scholars of current times who also think that ahadith are not the basic source of religion.
May Allah show us the straight Path. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Wednesday, December 20, 2006 - 1:24 PM
brother Usmani salam
You have asked me where it says in Qur'an that it is a source of deen. I do not understand, What do we think Qur'an is then? WHat do we think it contains? Who are those instructions for.
It is God Who has sent down the Book in truth that is the Mizan…….. (42:17)
Blessed is He Who sent down the Furqan to His servant that it may be an admonition to the people of the world. (25:1)
surah Ibrahim verse 1 (O'Prophet) we have given you this Book so that you can bring people from out of (spiritual) darkness into (spiritual)light.
Secondly, can you share with us the list of what you think is Sunnah of the Prophet Pbuh.
Thirdly! the issue that I have is the authencity, reliability, contradictions, diversity and the manner of collection and making it a source of deen. Hadith is khabar i wahad. so ONE PERSON says for example the prophet pbuh said eating something is haram. THis is not mentioned in Qur'an. This is not written in the time of the prophet pbuh, but many years later, this information is passed down 4,6 8 chains of narrations of one person each. Now , I am being asked to accept this as deen. Then I find that shiaat and sunni have their own hadith and the followers of different sects and imams accept only certain hadith. My understanding is that deen is an abad i hidayat. Allah would not transmit deen i haq this way. We may agree to disagree on this. I saw the book of kitab i fazayal for tablighi jammat, based on ahadith. They have contributions from the prophet pbuh, if you read these three surah 10 times , you will get reward as if you have fasted for 30 years . In other words, I do not need to fast again for the rest of my life. When you say Obey Allah and obey the prophet pbuh, If for example a muslim was 100% sure that something was said by prophet pbuh and instructed as part of deen, then it becomes compulsary to follow. You have not grasped the issue where we disagree.
My respected brother in Islam! you initilly stated that 0.0000001% of ummah fagrees with Javaid Ghamidhi,now you are asking about 5 scholars. Well there are scholars of Islam that have studied and completed their studies in Islam and have TV programmes that agree with the Understanding-Islam approach started by Farahi and Islahi. They have degrees and qualifications but then you will say in your opinion you do not accept their qualifications or degrees.
I must clarify here I do not follow Javaid Ghamidhi. I am interested in reading about any good scholar of Islam and I respect anyone who strives in the path of Islam.I would appreciate haq irrespective of its source. Javaid Ghamidhi is a human being and has faults and limitations. This is not a new sect. It is a thought process and approach to understand Islam, not started by him but Farahi and Islahi. I read Moudoodi, Dr Israr, Waheeduddin Khan.and we must respect these people who have dedicated their lives for Islam.
Javaid Ghamidhi has been a part of Islamic nazriati council, he has been on TV in Pk. his institution currently has 5 different web sites, organisational work is being undertaken in UK and teh web sites have members all ove rthe world.
The problem that I see my very respected brotehr in Islam is that Ghamidhi, will appeal to a selected audiance. He believes in questioning teh authencity and also rationale and logic. He is against sufism and blind following. He encourages his students to question and disagree with him. He is the only scholar that I know, who tells his students to go and listen to other scholars too and do not become " kuneey key mendak" "frogs of the same watering hole".
The reason that he is disliked is that he wants to seperate religion from culture. He wants to concentrate on the purpose of religion, the essence of prayers, not whether your shalwar is of a certain length.
The problem that people have today, is that we are brought up in a scociety and culture of pre formed ideas.We percieve truth , from these pre formed ideas. Any thing that is different, is wrong, becasue so and so says so. We need to have the strength and ability to break these pre formed bounderies to our thinking, and we may see things differently. What I am saying is that truth does not have to be of a certain colour only to be truth.
Brother! let me first in saying that I am not and will never say that I am right and everyone else is wrong. What I find in the forum is that whenever someone has a different opinion, we jump and say he is an idol worshipper and ....... ( I do not mean you personally brother).
Let us all pledge to be the followers of truth and seek the path of truth. Let us ask Allah to show us all the right path and the strength to adhere to it.I strongly believe that who seek truth with a pure heart will find it. If you are comfortable with what you know, alhamdulilah! may Allah give you more knowledge and strength, my only request is never shut the door . At present , this is what I believe in, but I pray to Allah to show me the right path, if it is something different then direct me to it.
I may be wrong but Aristotle was asked about what is dear to him the most He replied." Socrates is dear but truth is dearer" ( I may have muddled the two other way around). This my dear and respected brother in islam should be the approach of a true believer (in my opinion). If I have transgressed the bounderies of religion or offended you I apologise.
Allah knows best. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, December 23, 2006 - 8:00 AM
brother Waseem Walikum Salam
Quote:-You have asked me where it says in Qur'an that it is a source of deen. I do not understand, What do we think Qur'an is then? WHat do we think it contains? Who are those instructions for.
Same words can also be used for ahadith but you are un-necessarily making it way of transmission irreliable.Brother I have full trust on Allah and Quran and what its says each and every of its words.May be I am wrong but how you appear on the issue of ahadith,I felt that you do not have such trust on Allah and Quran which one Muslim must have.
Brother firstly you are seeing religion with the eyes of Javaid sahib’s school and with your own intellect.You need to develop you own school which must be based on Quran and Sunnah (Authentic ahadith) only and used you intellect to leave it whoever says and what so ever if it apper good but if goes agaisnt Quran and Sunnah(Authentic ahadith)
Quote:-Secondly, can you share with us the list of what you think is Sunnah of the Prophet Pbuh.
It is not possible for me do present the list of Sunnah here.Every authentic hadith for the following for ummah is Sunnah.It is not necessary that every Sunnah must be obligatary nature.
Quote:-Thirdly! the issue that I have is the authencity, reliability, contradictions, diversity and the manner of collection and making it a source of deen. Hadith is khabar i wahad
That’s where I find you are doing mistake, thinking that every hadith is Khabar-ul-Wâhid.How can you think like that just because your own self or only Javaid Ahmad Saheb amoungst the scholars in this planet says so and not giving any importance to what a very big majority of scholars classfying ahadith diffrently?.That includes Maulana Maudoodi Saheb,Muti Taqi Usmani Saheb,Muti Muneeb-ur-Rehman,Yousuf estes,Dr.Farhat Hashmi(Phd on Ahadith).These all Scholars defined Sunnah as I had defined earlier.You name a scholar of this height and you will find that he won’t look on ahadith like you are looking.I will request you to visit the following link of an article written by Mufti Taqi Usmani.Please see what he has to say for the Preservation of Sunnah.
The Preservation of Sunnah
It is totally wrong to say that the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) was compiled for the first time in the third century. In fact, the compilation had begun in the very days of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) as we shall see later, though the compilations in a written form were not the sole measures adopted for the preservation of the sunnah. There were many other reliable sources of preservation also. In order to understand the point correctly we will have to know the different kinds of the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
http://www.ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap3.html
Quote:-so ONE PERSON says for example the prophet pbuh said eating something is haram. THis is not mentioned in Qur'an. This is not written in the time of the prophet pbuh, but many years later, this information is passed down 4,6 8 chains of narrations of one person each. Now , I am being asked to accept this as deen.
Brother you can one ignore every one on that but how can you ignore Allah Him self.When Allah Him said that what Prophet(pbuh) says follow it.My dear brother it will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy once its establish through Quran that what Prophet says for the following of ummah is deen on the other hand and make its discovery impossible.Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise
Now the things you have mentioned regarding the ahadith are not written in the time of the Prophet(pbuh) and its transmission.Firstly I would say that you are assuming things or just believing on some one blindly.If you will see the article above certainly it will help you to understand it better.
Quote:-I saw the book of kitab i fazayal for tablighi jammat, based on ahadith. They have contributions from the prophet pbuh, if you read these three surah 10 times , you will get reward as if you have fasted for 30 years . In other words, I do not need to fast again for the rest of my life.
Brother the source of knowledge what we have from Quran and through Prophet(pbuh) are some thing beyond the humen capacity.What is our believe that there is another life where we have to life forever .This could be as difficult to believe and understand for a person who did not have faith.That’s why I feel that there is need for us to join the gathering of some learned people who can give us answers of our questions and remove our misconception regarding the authenticity of ahadith and many other issues of deen.
Quote:-When you say Obey Allah and obey the prophet pbuh, If for example a muslim was 100% sure that something was said by prophet pbuh and instructed as part of deen, then it becomes compulsary to follow. You have not grasped the issue where we disagree.
Brother main hardle of this “100% sure “ is mainly your wrong concept regarding the preservation of ahadith.When this will resolved, I hope the overall issue of ahdith will be more easier to understand.
Quote:-My respected brother in Islam! you initilly stated that 0.0000001% of ummah fagrees with Javaid Ghamidhi,now you are asking about 5 scholars. Well there are scholars of Islam that have studied and completed their studies in Islam and have TV programmes that agree with the Understanding-Islam approach started by Farahi and Islahi. They have degrees and qualifications but then you will say in your opinion you do not accept their qualifications or degrees.
I was talking about the most famous scholars like I gave five names above.Ok you can give even the past famous scholars names.My small study show that four great Imans of Fiqa and many more of past and presents scholars do not sees ahadith as you sees.Infact whom ever I study I found him on almost the same point of view as mentioned in the article of Taqi Usmani Saheb.
Quote:- This is not a new sect. It is a thought process and approach to understand Islam, not started by him but Farahi and Islahi. I read Moudoodi, Dr Israr, Waheeduddin Khan.and we must respect these people who have dedicated their lives for Islam.
I think this is going to be a new sect if its follower will start growing.IF you could do me a favor to bring some thoughts of Imeen Ashan Aslahi saheb on this particular issue to Ahadith that how he used to see ahadith of today.
Quote:-The reason that he is disliked is that he wants to seperate religion from culture. He wants to concentrate on the purpose of religion, the essence of prayers, not whether your shalwar is of a certain length.
Who ever will try to keep away from the ahadith he could certainly will think like that.But the problem comes with these people when Quran it self go against them.They failed to find a single verse of Quran in their support.
Quote:-The problem that people have today, is that we are brought up in a scociety and culture of pre formed ideas.We percieve truth , from these pre formed ideas. Any thing that is different, is wrong, becasue so and so says so.We need to have the strength and ability to break these pre formed bounderies to our thinking, and we may see things differently.
There are certainly some problems of man made concepts which some people gave them unnecessary importance here but if some one think that length of shalwar is not a issue of deen then it is stated in the basic source of deen that it is a issue.
Quote:- my only request is never shut the door . At present , this is what I believe in, but I pray to Allah to show me the right path, if it is something different then direct me to it.
Brother one never shut the door of any knowledge whom ever its comes from but it must be in compliance of Quran and teaching of Prophet(pbuh) then one will never go wrong.This is the policy I am following. |
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