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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 5:48 PM 
It is not a critisicm but this highlights the major difference between tasawuf and the understanding Islam approach or fikr i farahi. Tasawuf discourages you to seek or ask clarification, more about obediance and mureed. Whilst understanding Islam approach suggetss that Qur'an is there to ponder upon and deliberate. To seek clarifications and question years old rituals that have no religious but cultural basis.
Not saying one is right and the other is wrong. I feel it is horses for courses. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, June 30, 2007 - 5:58 PM
Surely this Quran guides to that which is most upright and gives good news to the believers who do good that they shall have a great reward 17:9
The divine guidance is pointing towards the Qur'an to be the sirat i mustaqeem.not the tasawauf and neither the scholars |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 1, 2007 - 6:11 AM
| According to Ghamidhi Human beings are not just animal and intellectual creatures but in addition have a moral aspect to their existance too. The ability to delinate right from wrong. Thus when we do something wrong we do have a realisation inside us and the same applies to doing something good. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 2, 2007 - 7:23 AM
Mango is a Halal fruit. There is nothing inappropriate about making the hypothetical statement about liking of mangoes by the 4 Imams.
Waseem, I think Usmani is not talking about a 'local majority' of scholars of present times, he is talking about the 'global majority of scholars of all times, past and present'. But this becomes a circular argument, because anyone who would not conform to this theoretical 'majority' will not even be considered a scholar according to his definition.
It is like President Musharraf saying that whoever agrees with him will be part of the 'majority', even if nobody agrees with him. And people who dont agree with him even if they are infact in majority, they will not be considered as 'majority' because they dont agree with him.
So the 'majority' argument is just self-assuring, self-righteous concept. it is used to validate a singular interpretation of original sources suggested by a few scholars, as the only interpretation possible and legitimate.
Regards,
Salman |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 2, 2007 - 5:15 PM
| I understand, the point I was making was that in my opinion we follow the haq or truth and the Qur'an not the majority of scholars. There is diversification and sectarianism but the only thing that remains steadfast is Qur'an which everyone accepts as meezan. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 8:37 AM
As far as I have understood his point of view, he is not favoring the 'majority' at the expense of Quran or Sunnah. 'Majority' for him is a solution of the problem of choosing from variant interpretations of Quran&Sunnah, or of making a decision where these original sources have apparently shown silence.
What needs to be asked, however is that whether 'majority' is a real phenomenon, or is it just a wishful observation because some scholars of recent times assumed that there has been a consensus of opinions on certain things?
Yunn na tha mein ne faqat chaaha tha yunn ho jaaye?
Let me also mention why this question is important, because Brother Usmani will most probably question its utility. My question is important because if it can be shown that infact 'majority' has existed, then his solution might be valid. But incase it can be shown that there have been differences of opinion in such matters of religion by the scholars of the past, however minor they might be, it would refute the existence of 'majority' and hence make the solution invalid.
Regards,
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 1:02 PM
Dear Salman,
Its good to see that you understand me correctly.I am quoting few ahadith of Prophet(pbuh) where you can see that it is a real phenomenon and not the wishful observation of recent scholars.People who follows the four school and the people who are ahle hadith are belongs to “aheleh sunna wal jammah” in short sunni are the people who constitute the majority and are on the right path as describe in the following ahadith.The differences amongst them are not that serious and have its roots in Quran and Sunnah.Please ponder on all ahadith before commenting.
Hadith 1.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "The Jews split into 71 groups; one will enter Paradise and 70 will enter Hell. The Christians split into 72 groups; 71 will enter Hell and one will enter Paradise. By Him in Whose Power is the life of Muhammad, without doubt, my Ummah will be divided into 73 groups. Only one will enter Paradise and 72 will enter Hell."
When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The main (al-Jama'ah) body of the Muslims." [Ibne Majah Kitab al-Fitan]
Hadith 2.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat]
continue..... |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 1:09 PM
Continue from previous......
Hadith 3
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]
Hadith 4.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " Follow the way of the largest group of Muslims! For, he who deviates from this group will be thrown into Hell!" [Ibne Majah]
Hadith 5.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "The devil continually pursues humans as a wolf pursues sheep. The wolf only dares to attack those sheep which have separated from the rest of the flock and are standing alone. And so, my followers and my devotees! Save yourselves from being caught in the traps of misguidance and firmly remain with the largest and most well known group of Muslims!" [ Imam Ahmad]
Hadith 6.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam) said " Allah will never allow my Ummah to unite upon misguidance and incorrect beliefs. Allah's mercy, blessings and protection are with the largest group of Muslims. And he who deviates from this largest group of Muslims will be thrown into Hell." [ Tirmidhi]
Hadith 7.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala 'alayhi wa Sallam) said " He who deviates from the largest group of Muslims, even as much as a hand span, has himself cut off his connection with Islam." [Abu Daud, Imam Ahmed] |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 1:50 PM
Dear Waseem,
Quote:-Can I ask brother Usmani, that will he accept as truth and Haq if majority of scholars agreed, even though his own mind raised doubts and reservations.
Yes I will accept it,because it is endosed by Prophet(pbuh)
Quote:-Tasawuf discourages you to seek or ask clarification, more about obediance and mureed.
No it is not correct.Infact in tasawwuf one the the pervalage to see the shaikh and ask as many questions and clarifications he wish.How can one remains attached with shaikh while from inside the heart he is not satisfy with his interpretations.
Quote:-According to Ghamidhi Human beings are not just animal and intellectual creatures but in addition have a moral aspect to their existance too. The ability to delinate right from wrong. Thus when we do something wrong we do have a realisation inside us and the same applies to doing something good.
Ask non muslims do they have any realisation inside them that by not accepting the religion Islam they are doing any wrong? |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 2:13 PM
Brother Usmani,
Thank you for these Ahadith. However by presenting these Ahadith you are making a circular argument, or as they say in english you are "begging the question". Let me explain how:
You have presented the Ahadith to prove that 'majority' exists...
You understand these Ahadith to mean exactly what you have written above, because that is, as you think, the 'majority' view on these Ahadith...(and also that a different interpretation of these Ahadith, or a comment about their authenticity will be unacceptable to you, simply because it will be different from 'majority')
So basically you are using a pre-supposed 'majority' to prove that 'majority' exists, hence the circularity!
As you endorsed my understanding that the 'majority' is used to decide between variant opinions. So please try to understand that in order to prove the existence of 'majority', it is more appropriate to use historical evidence instead of Quran or Ahadith. This is because the 'majority' issue has to be resolved before entering into the domain of these sources, if the authority of majority is to be used to choose variant interpretations of these sources.
Regards,
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 3, 2007 - 5:01 PM
Brother Salman,
Quote:-(and also that a different interpretation of these Ahadith, or a comment about their authenticity will be unacceptable to you, simply because it will be different from 'majority')
I would like to see yours interpretation of these ahadith.Further more If you think authenticity of all these ahadith ever challenged, then please show me how and who challenged them ever.
Qoute:-So basically you are using a pre-supposed 'majority' to prove that 'majority' exists, hence the circularity!
That’s you think,sunni muslims were always in the majority that’s the fact who ever study the history of Islam knows. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, July 4, 2007 - 9:18 AM
Quote: I would like to see yours interpretation of these ahadith.Further more If you think authenticity of all these ahadith ever challenged, then please show me how and who challenged them ever.
Reply: The interpretation that you have presented is contradicting with the ground realities. If 'Ahle Sunnah wa Aljamah' is being talked about in these Ahadith, then one can always question whether AhleSunnahwalJamah is one group? As I understand, in the subcontinent, there are three groups within this group. These are Barelvi, Deobandi, and Ahle Hadith. Technically, Ahle Hadith are probably not in it. Now the fact is there are major differences across this groups.
Fact 1: A true Barelvi never prays behind a Deobandi or Ahle Hadith Imam.
Fact 2: A Deobandi prefers not to pray behind a Barelvi Imam (A Fatwa is available on that).
Fact 3: Barelvi scholars (highest ones) have often termed Deobandi & Ahle Hadith scholars as 'Kafir'.
Fact 4: And Deobandi scholars have published material to prove that the top Barelvi scholar was a fraud.
Fact 5: Please note all of this is despite the fact that Deobandi and Barelvi both follow Hanafi Fiqh, they both follow Maturdi Aqeedah, and both consider Tasawwuf essential.
Fact 6: Both deobandi and barelvi consider Taqleed as a prerequisite for following religion, Ahle Hadith dont consider it necessary to follow one of the 4 Imams consistently.
There are other facts as well, I am sure you know them better than I do, So which one of these groups is the Prophet talking about? If there is nothing wrong with the Ahadith, there is certainly something wrong with the interpretation you presented. The differences between these sub-groups are too much to club them in one large group and call them 'majority'.
Quote: That’s you think,sunni muslims were always in the majority that’s the fact who ever study the history of Islam knows
Reply: The discussion is on the existence of 'majority' i.e. a large group holding common views on all matters of religion. For the sake of this discussion, the statement that such a majority exists or has existed is a hypothesis not a 'fact'. Atleast not for the time being. When this very thing is under discussion that whether majority exists or not, using it as a premise makes the argument a circular argument, hence making your point invalid.
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, July 4, 2007 - 1:18 PM
Brother Salman,
What you have talk about the differences amongst deobandi,Ahle Hadith and barelvi are true also.But that is also true that majority of them did not consider each other kafir.With some differences they all recognized others as muslims.They used to pray in others mosques.They marry with each others.Further more all called them self as sunni and that is where they all are one Jammah the largest group amongst people who consider them self as muslims.The muslims who are in majority in other part of the world are also sunni.These are the people who considered Sunnah of prophet(pbuh) including sahih ahadith as main source of deen.That is what told in the hadith that “ which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims”. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 7:31 AM
Quote: But that is also true that majority of them did not consider each other kafir.With some differences they all recognized others as muslims.They used to pray in others mosques.They marry with each others.Further more all called them self as sunni and that is where they all are one Jammah the largest group amongst people who consider them self as muslims
Reply: Which majority are we talking about? the majority of scholars of these groups or the majority of general muslims?
As I understand, we were discussing the authority of majority-of-scholars in choosing an interpretation from several available. If you will include everybody who CLAIMS to follow 'Quran and Sunnah', then ofcourse you would have a large group, but then it will also include all the variant interpretations as well. So how can the resulting 'majority' then be used in choosing from the various interpretations? if it is inclusive of every view how can it be used to reject any?
The differences I have identified are not amongst the general people belonging to these groups, but have been observed from the top scholars of the respective groups. The scholars neither pray in other's mosques (they infact explicitly discourage it), nor do they suggest marrying with others.
The concept of 'majority' which is able to choose from various interpretations, can only be said to exist, when it can be shown that a large group (of scholars) holds common interpretations on all religious matters.
Regards,
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 9:13 AM
Scholars majority is directly proportional to the majority of general muslims(I guess).But you are right that we are talking authority of majority-of-scholars.There is not much differences amongst sunni scholars on the main issues of the religion like the subject of this forum Sufism.May be not all the scholars follows the Sufism but they recognized it as part of the religion.
Quote:-The differences I have identified are not amongst the general people belonging to these groups, but have been observed from the top scholars of the respective groups. The scholars neither pray in other's mosques (they infact explicitly discourage it), nor do they suggest marrying with others.
Firstly I don’t think it is true picture ,they might prefer to pray in their mosque but they did not discourage general public to pray in other’s mosque neither stop to marring with each others.Yes they stop to marring other than sunnies and also praying in their mosques and people follows it. Secondly even if I assume you are true in saying that then still they are one group under the umbrella of “sunni” having common views on major and also majority of issues of the religion.Sunni is a very common term used by the muslims.I am surprised why you are not accepting them as a one group.
Quote:-The concept of 'majority' which is able to choose from various interpretations, can only be said to exist, when it can be shown that a large group (of scholars) holds common interpretations on all religious matters.
That is what you asking for un-natural and impossible thing.Even this is not the religion expecting from Muslims as well. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 10:28 AM
Quote: That is what you asking for un-natural and impossible thing.Even this is not the religion expecting from Muslims as well.
Reply: Ok. Thanks. Thats what I wanted you to agree on.
Quote: Sunni is a very common term used by the muslims.I am surprised why you are not accepting them as a one group.
Reply: It is a common term, for sure, but includes very diverse views. So it is not possible to use it as a judgement criteria in religion.
But anyways, I respect your right to have a different opinion on this. |
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