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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 11:25 AM 
Quote:- It is a common term, for sure, but includes very diverse views. So it is not possible to use it as a judgement criteria in religion.
The common and very essentional feature which must be there in this group is that they follow the Sunnah to remain in this group in the light of the ahadith I have quoted earlier.Who ever not following the Sunnah or have a different definition on Sunnah as compare to the majority of scholars of this group,then this person is out of the fold of this group, I am afraid. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 12:24 PM
If, as you agreed, a consensus on all matters cannot be shown within this group, then to what reference point will the "different definition" be compared?
The only common feature within the claimants of this group is their acceptance of the concept of 'majority'- so because they believe in the concept of a 'majority' that is why they claim 'majority' exists, otherwise the presence of differences within them does not justify any such idea.
And as it seems from your post, the concept of 'majority' cannot be challenged, because it is coming from the majority's interpretation of these Ahadith. It is like saying, 'majoriy exists, because majority says it exists'. It is a circular argument and hence cannot be accepted on logical grounds.
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 5, 2007 - 1:04 PM
I have tried to say that with the help of ahadith 1)sunni group is the one which hold the majority of Muslims as referred in the ahadith.Secondly these ahadith told us that they follow the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh).
Now apart from other than sunni,there are some people who always try to run away from the ahadith.they used to have lots of problems with them.If they come across of any hadith which does not suit to them then the first thing they do, they start showing their unwillingness to accept the hadith by doubting the authoncity of that hadith and so on.
These people need to be patiently try to re think about their attitude towards ahadith.An advice only to those friends to whom it may cocern. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, July 6, 2007 - 2:00 AM
When one drop of poison is mixed in a glass of milk, the whole milk is unsuitable for drinking.
In case of hadith, it is not just one drop, but bucket loads of corruption. So if you want to rely on these hadith, do so at your own risk.
Enough information and guidance is available in the holy Quran for success in this life and afterlife. Following unreliable hadith one can easily go astray. Keep it simple and follow the Quran. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 6, 2007 - 2:50 PM
24:54, "And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path."
4:42, "On that day those who disbelieved and disobeyed the Messenger will wish that the earth might be levelled with them."
4:115, "And whoever makes a breach with the Messenger after the right path has become clear to him, and follows a way other than that of the believers, We shall let him own what he chose and shall admit him in the Jahannam, and what an evil place."
4:80, "And whoever obeys the Messenger indeed obeys Allah."
3:53, "(The believers say:) Our Lord, we have come to believe in what YOu revealed, and followed the Messenger. So, write us among those who bear witness."
12:108, "Say, 'This is my way. I call to Allah with sure knowledge, I and whoever follows me.'"
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These are few verses from the Quran and there so many others similar verses in Quran which are asking to follow and obey the Prophet(pbuh).So by following and obeying the ahadith in fact one is obeying and following the Quran.By not following and obeying the ahadith in-fact one is not obeying and following the Quran.
If ahadith are so corrupted as you have said then the question comes in mind that do the Allah was not aware of the such corruption would took place in the ahadith? then why there are such verses in Quran and which could only be obeyed if we will obey the ahadith. |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Friday, July 6, 2007 - 5:07 PM
1.
quote:
....................... there so many others similar verses in Quran which are asking to follow and obey the Prophet(pbuh).
2.
quote:
So by following and obeying the ahadith in fact one is obeying and following the Quran................
Brother Usmani,
Let us closely examine the above two parts of your statement.
If a=b and b=c, then a=c.
You have rightly stated in the first part that numerous verses in Quran ask us to follow and obey the Prophet(pbuh). You have proved this statement of yours with a few examples by quoting the meaning of relevant verses from the Qur'an. Jazakallahu Khair.
In the second part you say that
following and obeying the ahadith = obeying and following the Quran.
Could you prove this statement of yours?
I say this beacause the word hadith literally means communication or narration. In the Islamic context it has come to denote the record of what the Prophet (S.A.W.) said, did, or tacitly approved. According to some scholars, the word hadith also covers reports about the sayings and deeds, etc. of the Companions of the Prophet in addition to the Prophet himself. The whole body of Traditions is termed Hadith and its science 'Ilm al-Hadith.
Thus how can
obeying the ahadith=following and obeying the Prophet = obeying and following the Quran |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 2:28 AM
There is no problem in obeying the prophet.
The problem is obeying the hadith which is not from the prophet but falsely claims to be from him.
Please try to understand this simple point. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 8:48 AM
Quote:-According to some scholars, the word hadith also covers reports about the sayings and deeds, etc. of the Companions of the Prophet in addition to the Prophet himself. The whole body of Traditions is termed Hadith and its science 'Ilm al-Hadith.
Yes you are correct here.Yes we have follow the Companions of the Prophet(pbuh) in addition to the Prophet himself.This is what Prophet(pbuh) Himself has said in the hadith.
Hadith 2.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
When asked which group will be on the right path, the Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu Alayhi wa Sallam) replied, "The group on the right path, which will enter Paradise, will be the group which follows my Sunna and that of my Sahaba and this will be the largest group of Muslims." [Tirmidhi, Imam Ahmad, Abu Daud, Mishkat] |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 7, 2007 - 9:07 AM
Quote:-The problem is obeying the hadith which is not from the prophet but falsely claims to be from him.
These kind of ahadith already identified by the educated Islamic scholars.99% muslins follows the ahadith of Prophet (pbuh).If you are not listening to the majority of educated Islamic scholars and instead following 1% misguided people then some thing very seriously wrong with you and not with the ahadith.
4:115, "And whoever makes a breach with the Messenger after the right path has become clear to him, and follows a way other than that of the believers, We shall let him own what he chose and shall admit him in the Jahannam, and what an evil place."
By quoting this verse I didn’t mean that you fit in here but you are on this way already by separating yours self from the majority of believers way. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 8, 2007 - 12:38 AM
Hadith 2.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
These kind of ahadith already identified by the educated Islamic scholars.99% muslins follows the ahadith of Prophet (pbuh).If you are not listening to the majority of educated Islamic scholars and instead following 1% misguided people then some thing very seriously wrong with you and not with the ahadith.
with respect brother Usmani there is contradiction in the above two statements. how can one group out of 73 be majority and represent 99% of ummah and how do you know which of the 73 groups is right?
By quoting this verse I didn’t mean that you fit in here but you are on this way already by separating yours self from the majority of believers way.
I was under the understanding that as human beings we cannot judge who will go to Paradise. Allah only knows. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 8, 2007 - 8:52 AM
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
Hadith 3
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]
This last hadith has been translated by Ghamidhi stating that what is meant is that Ummah will not be gathered in misguidance. It means there will always be some people who will be steadfast on Haq. This interpretation is more in keeping with the hadith quoted above about only one in 73 groups being right.If we accept your interpretation then then it clashes with the first hadith |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 9, 2007 - 6:22 AM
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 9, 2007 - 4:07 PM
Quote:-with respect brother Usmani there is contradiction in the above two statements. how can one group out of 73 be majority and represent 99% of ummah and how do you know which of the 73 groups is right?
Hadith says (It will split into 73 groups) There will be a time when Ummah will be split into 73 groups but this yet happened. Currently Ummah is already split into 5 or 6 groups or may be little bit more.As hadith says the group which will be always there on haq it will have two thing in it 1) They will be having the majority amongst other groups 2) they will follow the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) and that of Sahabah.What I have said 99% this I am only talking about the within sunni group and 1 % of them are those sonnies who are not used to follow the ahadith they to me (according to hadith) will be out from sunni group.Because following the Sunnah is a prerequisite to remains in this group.
I said:By quoting this verse I didn’t mean that you fit in here but you are on this way already by separating yours self from the majority of believers way.
You said:-I was under the understanding that as human beings we cannot judge who will go to Paradise. Allah only knows.
No I did not did this mistake here.One of the hadith of Prophet(pbuh)says that one momin used to have the mirror of other momen brother.Means what ever you find wrong in other muslim brothers, you must let him knows in a batter manner. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 9, 2007 - 4:46 PM
Quote:-This last hadith has been translated by Ghamidhi stating that what is meant is that Ummah will not be gathered in misguidance. It means there will always be some people who will be steadfast on Haq. This interpretation is more in keeping with the hadith quoted above about only one in 73 groups being right.If we accept your interpretation then then it clashes with the first hadith
The second part of the hadith(Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]) is further says that “they will be in great majority”To me the complete sense of the hadith is that “there will always be some people who will be steadfast on Haq” as defind by the Ghamidhi sahib and further they will be in the great majority.
As I said in my earlier post that currently Ummah not yet come to this point where there are 73 group in ummah.The emphasis of hadith is that this one group will always in the majority weather there will be 2 groups or 73 groups. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 1:35 AM
dear usmani790,
It appears you are suggesting that someone who follows the Quran can go to hell because he/she is not following hadith/reports attributed to the prophet. Is that what you are saying? |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 10, 2007 - 6:59 AM
If I may intervene, there are two facts to reconcile:
1) That the Prophet (sws) has instructed to follow the 'majority', termed as "Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)"
2) As we agreed, there isnt any group of muslims where an across the board consensus exists on ALL religious matters.
Now I am not commenting on the authenticity of the Ahadith because I am not qualified to do so. Assuming that they are authentic, there is a definite need to reconcile these facts.
One thing is for sure, that the Prophet is not talking about a group referred in my point #2. So if there cannot be a broad, accross the board consensus on the interpretation of Quran and Sunnah on all religious matters. But, one can say, as suggested by our surroundings, there does exist a large group which is in principle in agreement on the authentic & flawless transfer of the original sources i.e. Quran and Sunnah. Scholars may vary on their understanding of Quran and Sunnah, they may differ on the interpretation on various matters, but whether it has been transferred correctly from the Prophet to us, there hasnt been any doubt on that. Even the people who are skeptic on using Ahadith, they too are in agreement on the way Namaz is performed, so that means, even they feel that the transfer of such practical matters (e.g Namaz) which I am referring here as "sunnah" has been flawless. They may not agree with the terminology I am using here but they do agree in principle with this fact.
If this definition of the 'Sawad e Azam' is accepted then there is no contradiction between the ground realities and Ahadith. You have now a group which consists of, I believe, more than 70% of muslims. Although it will not be as monolithic as the traditional explanation requires the 'majority' to be. It will be a diverse group with various viewpoints. There wouldnt be any need to artificially converge at a view because 'majority' insists on it. What is Truth, will be worked out within such a majority through research and discussion, not because of insistence of a group which considers itself a majority on basis of merely self-claim.
Salman |
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