| Author | Topic |
Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
|
 Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 9:01 AM 
| A correction in my last message.I wanted to say that;would you still say FOR SAHABA THERE WAS NO DIFFERENCE BETWEEN QURAN AND HADITH as there is an ocean of difference between hadith and sunnah. |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 3:16 PM
Quote:-Do you not wonder that if the explanation of quran was in the Ahadith Allah would have given the same level of protection to Ahadith which it gave to Quran?
I would be grateful if you could give direct answers and explanations to my concerns.
Please see the following explanation.This is carried out by Taqi Usmani Sahib.
The Holy Qur’ân says,
Allâh does not task anybody except to his ability.
It cannot be envisaged that Allâh will bind all the people with something which does not exist or cannot be ascertained. Accepting that Allâh has enjoined upon us to follow the sunnah of the Holy Prophet ( ), it certainly implies that the sunnah is not undiscoverable. If Allâh has made it obligatory to follow the sunnah, He has certainly preserved it for us, in a reliable form.
The following aspect also merits consideration. Allâh Almighty has given us a promise in the Holy Qur’ân:
Indeed We have revealed the Zikr (ie. the Qur’ân) and surely We will preserve it. (15:9)
In this verse, Allâh Almighty has assured the preservation of the Holy Qur’ân. This implies that the Qur’ân will remain uninterpolated and that it shall always be transferred from one generation to the other in its real and original form, undistorted by any foreign element. The question now is whether this divine protection is restricted only to the words of the Holy Qur’ân or does it extend to its real meanings as well. If the prophetic explanation is necessary to understand the Holy Qur’ân correctly, as proved in the first chapter, then the preservation of the Qur’ânic words alone cannot serve the purpose unless the prophetic explanations are also preserved. As quoted earlier, the Holy Book says, |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 3:20 PM
Continue-----
We have revealed to you the Zikr (Qur’ân) so that you may explain to the people what has been sent down for them.
The word “Zikr” has been used here for the Holy Qur’ân as has been used in the verse 15:9 and it has been made clear that the people can only benefit from its guidance when they are led by the explanations of the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
Again, the words “for the people” indicate (especially in the original Arabic context), that the Holy Prophet’s (pbuh) explanation is always needed by “everyone.”
Now, if everyone, in every age is in need of the prophetic explanation, without which they cannot fully benefit from the Holy Book, how would it be useful for them to preserve the Qur’ânic text and leave its prophetic explanation at the mercy of distorters, extending to it no type of protection whatsoever.
Therefore, once the necessity of the prophetic explanations of the Holy Qur’ân is accepted, it will be self-contradictory to claim that these explanations are unavailable today. It will amount to negating the divine wisdom, because it is in no way a wise policy to establish the necessity of the sunnah on the one hand and to make its discovery impossible on the other. Such a policy cannot be attributed to Allâh, the All-Mighty, the All-Wise.
This deductive argument is, in my view, sufficient to establish that comprehending the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh), which is necessary for the correct understanding of the divine guidance, shall as a whole remain available in a reliable manner forever. All objections raised against the authenticity of the sunnah as a whole can be repudiated on this score alone. But in order to study the actual facts, we are giving here a brief account of the measures taken by the ummah to preserve the sunnah of the Holy Prophet (pbuh). It is a brief and introductive study of the subject, for which the comprehensive and voluminous books are available in Arabic and other languages. The brief account we intend to give here is not comprehensive. The only purpose is to highlight some basic facts which, if studied objectively, are well enough to support the deductive inference about the authenticity of the sunnah.
http://www.ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap3.html |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 3:31 PM
Quote:-The "Quran/Ahlul Bait" version is present in 5/6 Sihah Sittah and its tawatur and isnad is not questioned. My question to you is in light of this overwhelming evidence why do you stress on Quran and sunnah and why not Quran&Ahl e Bait.
We are not following Sunnah Just because of this hadith,there so many others ahadith which asking us to follow the sunnah.Futher more the verses of Quran clerly asking us to follow the sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) and there not a single verse which asking to follow Ahle-bait. |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 5:00 PM
Quote:-The same act of apostasy has been mentioned in Al e Imran verse 90,Nissa 137,Nahl 106 and no where death penalty has been mentioned.
Brother Usmani,it is upto you whether you prefer Quranic directives or Hadith directives as there is a glaring contradiction in both.
I have already explaind it through the Quran that Prophet(pbuh) words are final in the interpretation of Quran.When comes to this type of decision where the life of some one is involved so what is important to make sure that the hadith which says so is a sahih and that its come to us through tawatur.Further more it is not our job to do that it is the job of those people who are expert in this field (sehelors of ahdith).
Further more there are so many examples of these kind where Quran is not giving us clears orders but we all following the Prophet(pbuh) in these regards.Praying five times a day and their timing,paying 2.5% zakat,Hajj has to performed once in life time,So many things are not halal for us are not there in Quran but we are following them just because they are forbaded by Prophet(pbuh). |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 5:06 PM
Quote:- Prophet sws said;Do not write anything from me EXCEPT QURAN. Anyone who wrote anything other than the Quran shall erase it." (Ahmad and Muslim).Unfortunately i wanted to send the arabic text with it but the page wont accept it.
Please have a look in the following explanation.
1. One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said:
“Seek help from your right hand,” and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
2. Râfi’ ibn Khadij (RA ), the famous companion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) says, “I said to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied:
You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]
3. Sayyiduna Anas (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has said:
Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]
4. Sayyiduna Abu Râfi’ (RA) sought permission from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to write ahâdîth. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) permitted him to do so. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
It is reported that the ahâdîth written by Abu Râfi’ (RA ) were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn ‘Abbâs (RA) says:
I saw some small wooden boards with ‘Abdullâh Ibn ‘Abbâs. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he acquired from Abu Râfi’. [Tabaqât Ibn Sa’d]
5. ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Âs (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to him:
Preserve knowledge.
He asked, “and how should it be preserved?” The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, “by writing it.” [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi’-ul-Bayân] |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Monday, July 16, 2007 - 5:07 PM
Continue----
In another report he says, “I came to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and told him, ‘I want to narrate your ahâdîth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’ The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, ‘If it is my hadîth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart.” [Sunan Dârimi]
6. It was for this reason that he used to write ahâdîth frequently. He himself says,
I used to write whatever I heard from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said, “Do you write everything you hear from the Holy Prophet (pbuh), while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be?” [Sunan Abu Dâwûd]
They meant that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) might say something in a state of anger which he did not seriously intend. So, one should be selective in writing his ahâdîth. ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr conveyed their opinion to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). In reply, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) pointed to his lips and said,
I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]
It was a clear and absolute order given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to write each and every saying of his without any hesitation or doubt about its authoritative nature.
In compliance to this order, ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr wrote a large number of ahâdîth and compiled them in a book form which he named, “al-Sahîfah al-Sadîqah.” Some details about this book shall be discussed later on, inshâ-Allâh.
7. During the conquest of Makkah (8 A.H.), the Holy Prophet (pbuh) delivered a detailed sermon containing a number of Sharî’ah imperatives, including human rights. One Yemenite person from the gathering, namely, Abu Shah, requested the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to provide him the sermon in a written form. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) thereafter ordered his companions as follows:
Write it down for Abu Shah. [Sahîh-ul-Bukhâri]
These seven examples are more than sufficient to prove that the writing of ahâdîth was not only permitted but also ordered by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and that the earlier bar against writing was only for a transitory period to avoid any possible confusion between the verses of the Holy Qur’ân and the ahâdîth. After this transitory period the fear of confusion ended, the bar was lifted and the companions were persuaded to preserve ahâdîth in a written form. |
|
Mujahid
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Tuesday, July 17, 2007 - 12:55 AM
Brother Usmani,
I hope you can see the obvious contradictions among the Ahadith of even sihah sittah. Quran is free from any contradiction as claimed vehemently by Quran itself but since hadith had no protection from Alimghty one can see the results.Just on one topic there are Ahadith giving totally opposite views. It is not only in this matter I can produce countless contradictory Ahadith on so many issues.It is exactly due to this reason that we have various sects in our ummah and each sect brings its own sets of Ahadith whilst defending or promoting their point of view.
You write;
These seven examples are more than sufficient to prove that the writing of ahâdîth was not only permitted but also ordered by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and that the earlier bar against writing was only for a transitory period to avoid any possible confusion between the verses of the Holy Qur’ân and the ahâdîth. After this transitory period the fear of confusion ended, the bar was lifted and the companions were persuaded to preserve ahâdîth in a written form.
I gave you reference of the hadith from Abu Dawood which proves all the seven Ahadith wrong because this hadith refers to an incident which took place 30 years after the demise of prophet sws.Hazrat Zaid bin Sabit ra was one of those few companions who were present during the qirat of ‘Arza I Akheera’.One of the most reliable of prophet’s companions. If prophet sws had said anything like your referred Ahadith portray then hazrat Zaid would have known about it as he was prophet’s closest companions. Most of the ahadith you have quoted are from weaker sources and not from Sihah sittah anyway.So your argument has hardly any weight.Please read this again;
Zayd Ibn Thabit ra(The Prophet's closest revelation writer) visited the Khalifa Mu'aawiyah (more than 30 years after the Prophet's death), and told him a story about the Prophet. Mu'aawiyah liked the story and ordered someone to write it down. But Zayd said. " the messenger of God ordered us NEVER to write anything of his hadith," (Sunan of Abu-Dawood under Hadith No. 1635 (3640):
You write;
I have already explaind it through the Quran that Prophet(pbuh) words are final in the interpretation of Quran.When comes to this type of decision where the life of some one is involved so what is important to make sure that the hadith which says so is a sahih and that its come to us through tawatur.Further more it is not our job to do that it is the job of those people who are expert in this field (sehelors of ahdith).
You have also shown in your answer that if there is a sahih hadith you would not care about the obvious verses of the Quran.
Brother,I think this is my last post on the issue as there is nothing else i can add to this topic. However, before i conclude my message i would like you to ponder over this verse from Holy Quran;
AND PROPHET SWS WOULD SAY ‘O’ MY LORD MY PEOPLE HAD ABANDONED THIS QURAN.(surah Furqan verse 30).
The reason propeht sws would say so,in my view, is the way this ummah has treated Quran.A book which was supposed to be the Meezan and Furqan and Muhaiman unfortunately has not been given its due position.
WO ZAMANEY MEIN MUAZZAZ THAY MUSSALMAN HO KAR
AUR TUM KHWAR HUAY TARK E QURAN HO KAR |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 9:08 AM
Brother Mujahid,
Quote:-I hope you can see the obvious contradictions among the Ahadith of even sihah sittah.
Yes there are some contradictions among the Ahadith but because of these contradictions it will not be wise to not made use the ahadith and did not obey the Furqan as its apper.You need to realize that following the sunnah has been made obligatory by Allah in the Quran.How can we keep away our face from it.For the explanation of true teaching of our deen Allah have made arrangements by having the learned scholars in every generation.These are the experts who are very capable to find those answers for Ummah from Quran and Sunnah even though there are contradictions in ahadith.They used to well versed in finding the required message of Allah from Quran and Sunnah for ever changing need.This is I am telling you through my study of ahadith.Common people job is to follow the right people in the matters of deen.
The Israelites were led by the prophets. Whenever a prophet would pass away, another prophet would succeed him. But there is no prophet after me. However, there shall be successors, and shall be in large numbers. (Sahih al-Bukhari Ch. 50 Hadîth 3455)
Quote:-I can produce countless contradictory Ahadith on so many issues.It is exactly due to this reason that we have various sects in our ummah and each sect brings its own sets of Ahadith whilst defending or promoting their point of view.
Yes this is true as well that among the sunnies this is going on but this is not that serious if we compare to others groups whom have change the face of religion entirely which is very different from the teaching of Quran and Sunnah.You know why this happened, they all believe in Quran but when comes to Sunnah they are not following the hole corpus of ahadith or not following them at all.While sunni muslims on the other side with the following of Quran they also making use of whole corpus of ahadith.So face of religion is still in good shape.So ahadith have kept united the sunni muslims and on the other hand rest of the groups are different from sunnies and from eachothers because they not following the ahadith properly or not at all.
Edited by: usmani790 on Wednesday, July 18, 2007 9:22 AM |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Wednesday, July 18, 2007 - 9:16 AM
Continue------
Quote:-I gave you reference of the hadith from Abu Dawood which proves all the seven Ahadith wrong
You will find so many ahadith even in Bukhari narrated by hazrat Zaid.Follwing hadith is from sunan abudaud it self.
Narrated Zayd ibn Thabit: I heard the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) say: May Allah brighten a man who hears a tradition from us, gets it by heart and passes it on to others. Many a bearer of knowledge conveys it to one who is more versed than he is; and many a bearer of knowledge is not versed in it. (Book #25, Hadith #3652)
So just based on this hadith one can not conclude that writing of ahdith was prohibited by Prophet(pbuh) for ever.You want to say that bukari,Muslim and Ahmed bin humble and so many others great scholars of Islam has done a great mistake by writing the ahadith for the Ummah.No learned person will accept it..
Those present should convey (my sunnah) to those absent [Bukhari].
Convey to others on my behalf, even though it be a single verse [Bukhari].
Quote:- AND PROPHET SWS WOULD SAY ‘O’ MY LORD MY PEOPLE HAD ABANDONED THIS QURAN.(surah Furqan verse 30).
The reason propeht sws would say so,in my view, is the way this ummah has treated Quran.A book which was supposed to be the Meezan and Furqan and Muhaiman unfortunately has not been given its due position.
Please ponder on following verce and so many other verses of Furqan which clearly calling for obeying and following of Prophet(pbuh)
Those who disbelieve in Allâh and His Messengers, and desire to make separation between Allâh and His Messengers and say, “We believe in some and disbelieve in some,” desiring to adopt a way in between this and that—those are the unbelievers in truth; and We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating punishment. (4:150-151)
Therefore, the submission to the authority of the Holy Prophet ( ) is a basic ingredient of having belief in his prophethood, which can never be separated from him. Thus, to accept the prophetic authority in the early days of Islâm, and to deny it in the later days, is so fallacious a proposition that cannot find support from any source of Islâmic learning, nor can it be accepted on any touchstone of logic and reason. |
|
waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 7:46 AM
Quote:Yes there are some contradictions among the Ahadith but because of these contradictions it will not be wise to not made use the ahadith and did not obey the Furqan
Brother Usmani, most humbly we are talking about the source of religion and openly accepting contradictions in it. How can then we claim authenticity of hadith as a SOURCE of religion. Can you imagine naouzobillah muslims making the same claim about Qur'an?
Tirmzi 2859
There is a straight path in front of you to the destination you want to reach. There are two walls on both sides of this path. There are dopen doors in both walls and curtains are drawn over these doors.At the top end of the path there is caller calling you to follow this path and come straight to your destination. Despite this if someone (travelling on this path) wants to lift the curtains on his right or left there is another caller from above who shouts: Beware do not lift the curtain-If you lift the curtain you will leave through the door. The Prophet pbuh stated the path is Islam, the walls are the bounderies of Allah, the doors are His limits The voice from the top is the waa'az of Allah present in the heart of every momen and the caller at the end of the road is Qur'an.
Ghamidhi writes that when we are deliberating and researching religion sometimes people look at facts with pre formed ideas and beliefs, thus they try to understand new information in light of their pre concieved opinions and are unable to accept new information. It is essential that we break these pre concieved ideas and look at religious information without bias. We must seek and follow the path of truth
Allah knows best. |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 5:15 PM
Dear Waseem,
Quran:-Brother Usmani, most humbly we are talking about the source of religion and openly accepting contradictions in it. How can then we claim authenticity of hadith as a SOURCE of religion.
That is why ahadith are classified in various categories base on their authenticity. There were more than 124,000 Prophets send by Allah for the guidance of human.There also those Prophets whom did not bring any book from Allah.So according to yours thinking one should not be follow them.I have red the Bible there are very few verses which are the direct Allah words.Most of the verses are from the Prophet jesus(pbuh) or His companion’s words.But because of these things no one objects on its authenticity.The objection is because the kind of message and the teaching of it.Niether Furqan ever objected on this ground on bible.
You need to understand that the revelation of Quran used come on Prophet (pbuh)once in while so that can be manage to safe from any out side material and also Prophet(pbuh) did every effort to protect Quran even he did stop people not to write ahadith for a certain time.But even during this time the other means to keep safe the ahadith were never stop.On the other hand its was impossible to save the Propphet(pbuh) words.Whole what He used to speak in the matter of deen were ahadith.
Allah has used the Prophet(pbuh),companions of Prophets until the people of forth century of Higra the process of compiling the ahadith was going on through them.Weather we need to used the ahadith as basic source of religion or not see the Furqan for that if you are still not sure.But once you established through yours own study of Furqan or though the people who have very good command on Furqan then accept it.Now out of 100 qualified people only one person you find who says ahadith can not be the basic source and not giving any weight to rest of the 99 then you what I would say for you.
Quote:-Ghamidhi writes that when we are deliberating and researching religion sometimes people look at facts with pre formed ideas and beliefs, thus they try to understand new information in light of their pre concieved opinions and are unable to accept new information. It is essential that we break these pre concieved ideas and look at religious information without bias. We must seek and follow the path of truth.
I have my serious doubt about the Qualification(Islamic) people who are involved in the so called research in Al-Mawrid.Think what would happened with the patient whose surgery would be carried out by the people who even not have the simple MBBS degree forget about the trained surgeon. |
|
hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
|
 Posted - Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 7:45 PM
we must not forget in this row about the source of deen that before all, the human being has been sent and stamped with innate guidance which he brings along at birth-in most matters his inner self guides him to the Right- where there was even a little bit of doubt that he may err, the Creator sent the guidance in the form of revelations which were revealed to some of these selected humans who were trustworthy and reliable to practice the guidance as it is within their innate guidance and would follow the lines given in revelations as and where required-not only this but would make arrangements to continue their practices based on these two sources into the generations-hence the generations being the witness to and practioners of these-
this innate guidance in the light of the final revelations and the practices of the prophets (sws) as ratified by the final prophet sws; make the source of religion.
niether God nor His messengers were such lax about this serious matter that they would leave it dependent on individually quoted narrations transmitted through individuals, called ahadith in islamic literature.
surely sahih hadith(in the light of the science of hadith by riwaya and darayah)) is the knowledge of the prophet sws, but it does not add anything new to the basic sources of religion mentioned above . they do support them though;
hence even if the books of hadith were not there, Islam would prevail in it's full fledge-based on innate guidance, Qur'an and the practices/Sunnah of the prophets sws. |
|
waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, July 19, 2007 - 9:13 PM
Quote:I have my serious doubt about the Qualification(Islamic) people who are involved in the so called research in Al-Mawrid.Think what would happened with the patient whose surgery would be carried out by the people who even not have the simple MBBS degree forget about the trained surgeon
brother disagreeing with a point of view is one thing. Doubting the integrity of a muslim is another. By your example you are implying that AL-Mawrid do not know what they are doing or talking about. In other words they are responsible for misguiding the muslims. This is a big accusation, I hope to God you feel confident to substantiate your views beyond any reasonable doubt about them. Allah knows best. |
|
usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 1:31 PM
Dear waseem,
Those people who have background of Islamic education and have years of working experience in the same field (They are the learned scholars) only capable to carried out any research.The people who may poses only the wordily qualification are not qualify to carried out any research in any branch of religion. Find out do these people who are involved in the research work in Al-Mawrid fulfill these requirements.
Quote:-In other words they are responsible for misguiding the muslims. This is a big accusation,
Yes they are in certain areas like their opinion that ahadith is not the basic source of religion and other so many issues.
Quote:- I hope to God you feel confident to substantiate your views beyond any reasonable doubt about them. Allah knows best.
Yes I am very confident and I am substantiating my views with the help of Quran and Sunnah time to time here. Unlike them that they often shorts of Quran and Sunnah to substantiate their views.Our recent discussion is an example of of it as far as my views are concern.
If yours self also have same opinion about the ahadith as this website claiming, so then please get ready yours answer from Quran and Sunnah.May Allah also ask you up there. |
|
waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 4:16 PM
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
Hadith 3
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]
Can I ask you brother Usmani.quoting the two ahadith you have yourself quoted, they contradict each other. so at some stage either we will not have 73 subdivisions or we will not have majority of muslims agreeing upon truth. So according to you a SOURCE of religion is contradicting itself or are we saying we will follow one course till the wind changes and then follow another course.
The Furqan and Meezan i.e Quran does not have this problem |
|
 Reply to Topic 
Printer Friendly |
| Jump To: |
|
|
|