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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 4:21 PM 
brother Usmani , when we talk about 99% majority,I asked you and you then replied 99% of sunni scholars.are in agreement.
Can I ask you three questions.
1) firstly in your opinion was prophet Muhammad Sunni or Shia or Muslim
2) what is according to you the criteria for anyone to be called a Muslim.
I am asking this because Qur'an and Islam has come for Muslims and not for sunni's alone and neither have divine guidance come for sunni's alone. If the prophet pbuh has said something ,it should apply to all Muslims and we cannot decide that it applies solely to sunni's.
3) why do you reject the ahadith that shiat scholars profess to be right? is it because they disagree or contradict sunni ahadith? |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 4:41 PM
We can have both in one time.The time when there will be 73 groups,there will definately one group which will be having the majority of people beloging to this group.They would be following the true path by following the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) and that of Sahabah as compare to rest of 72 groups which might be believing in Quran but because they all not be following the Sunnah will through to hell.
THis is never said that there will be always 73 groups in the ummah.
So there is no contradiction in these two ahadith. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 5:15 PM
Brother Waseem,
Can I ask you three questions.
1) firstly in your opinion was prophet
Muhammad Sunni or Shia or Muslim
Prophet(pbuh) were Muslim.Over that time all were following the true path.I have identified the sunni gruop as true muslim which exist today.This group is still following the way of the of Prophet(pbuh) and that of shabah.Prophet(pbuh) knowing that ummah will be divided in many groups so he guided us so we know which group is following the true teching and who is the true muslim amoungst all groups.Because all groups will be calling them self Muslims.
2) what is according to you the criteria for anyone to be called a Muslim.
Following the Quran and Sunnah.
Quote:-I am asking this because Qur'an and Islam has come for Muslims and not for sunni's alone.
They came for all human being.
Quote:- and neither have divine guidance come for sunni's alone.
They also came for all human beings.
Quote:-If the prophet pbuh has said something ,it should apply to all Muslims and we cannot decide that it applies solely to sunni's.
Who ever follwing Quran,Sunnah and the way of sahabah are on right track whatever they called themself suunies,shia or any other name.This is how one can be true muslim having calling them self sunnies,shia is not important.
3) why do you reject the ahadith that shiat scholars profess to be right? is it because they disagree or contradict sunni ahadith?
They are not the majority group which exist today niether they follow the Sunnah and way of sahabah properly. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 8:17 PM
Quote:Hadith 2.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
Quote: Hadith 3
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]
Quote:We can have both in one time.The time when there will be 73 groups,there will definately one group which will be having the majority of people beloging to this group.They would be following the true path by following the Sunnah of Prophet(pbuh) and that of Sahabah as compare to rest of 72 groups which might be believing in Quran but because they all not be following the Sunnah will through to hell.
THis is never said that there will be always 73 groups in the ummah.
So there is no contradiction in these two ahadith.
I am unclear. there are 73 groups, 72 are misguided and one group is right and we are saying that Muslim Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. How can 99% of one group constitute majority among the netire muslims if they are one group among 73. Brother Usmani your reasoning does not make sense to me. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 20, 2007 - 8:37 PM
‘I have been directed to wage war against these people until they testify to the oneness of God and to the prophethood of Muhammad, establish the prayer and pay Zaka#h. If they accept these terms, their lives will be spared except if they commit some other violation that entails their execution by Islamic law and [in the Hereafter] their account rests with God’. (Muslim, No: 22)
قال الله تعالى : فان تابوا وأقاموا الصلوة وأتوا الزكوة فخلوا سبيلهم _ والله لا اسئل فوقهن ولا اقصر دونـهن
The Almighty has said: ‘Therefore, if they repent establish the prayer and pay Zaka#h, spare their lives’. By God I shall neither ask for more nor less.
What are your views on these |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 6:11 AM
| Indeed, those who have believed [in this Prophet] and those, who became Jews and the Nasaaraa and the Sabians, whoever [truly] believes in God and the Day of Judgment and does good deeds; they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past]. |
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hkhan
UNITED KINGDOM
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 Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 6:47 AM
its also sad that some of our senior site 'n forum members-with us since a while-hvn't read any of our courses/studies yet. whats the purpose of joining educational sites whence we do not wish to read/learn-specially if one is so confident that whatever he/she knows from before is the final Right!
arguements without learning the facts being offered just wastes self's and others'times. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 9:25 AM
| Bro Usmani I am unclear about your reply to my question.Prophet pbuh took considerable steps to have Qur'an written and recited by sahabha.Why the indifferance to ahadith if they were equally a source of religion |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:06 AM
Dear Waseem,
Quote:- I am unclear. there are 73 groups, 72 are misguided and one group is right and we are saying that Muslim Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. How can 99% of one group constitute majority among the netire muslims if they are one group among 73. Brother Usmani your reasoning does not make sense to me.
I never said that the largest group will be having 99% muslim in it.Today there are five,six groups which called them self muslims and the largest group is sunnies one and they are having about more than 70 % muslim in it.Tomorrow ummah may be divided into 20 group and the group having majority may be having only 15% muslims in them, but the rest of 19 will be having less than 15% people in them.
Quote:- Muslim Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance.
Now this is referring about the majority group.and it is further said” Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam”
Now within this group there could be disagreement in various issues so it is said that “hold fast the opinion of the clear majority within this group”.This is where I am saying ofenly in the discussions here while discussing the various issues that why you people following the 1% sunni muslims and not 99% sunni muslims. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:24 AM
Quote:-Bro Usmani I am unclear about your reply to my question.Prophet pbuh took considerable steps to have Qur'an written and recited by sahabha.Why the indifferance to ahadith if they were equally a source of religion.
If what you have is true then how come when we study the sahabah life of sahabah, we found that for them Quran and saying of Prophet(pbuh) was just equal.I am not just lying here I had study their life and that what I got the central messege from it.You always can study and find out.
Further more if that is the case as you said then how come we have the thousands and thousands of ahadith with us untill to day. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 11:55 AM
Quote:-I have been directed to wage war against these people until they testify to the oneness of God and to the prophethood of Muhammad, establish the prayer and pay Zaka#h. If they accept these terms, their lives will be spared except if they commit some other violation that entails their execution by Islamic law and [in the Hereafter] their account rests with God’. (Muslim, No: 22)
قال الله تعالى : فان تابوا وأقاموا الصلوة وأتوا الزكوة فخلوا سبيلهم _ والله لا اسئل فوقهن ولا اقصر دونـهن
The Almighty has said: ‘Therefore, if they repent establish the prayer and pay Zaka#h, spare their lives’. By God I shall neither ask for more nor less.
What are your views on these
here the minimum requiremnet for a muslim has been laid down.In any Islamic socity if any muslim not praying or paying zakat the authorities can force him to do that.Harat Abu bakr siddique(RA) did the same agaisnt some muslims who refues to pay Zakat. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, July 21, 2007 - 12:07 PM
Quote:-Indeed, those who have believed [in this Prophet] and those, who became Jews and the Nasaaraa and the Sabians, whoever [truly] believes in God and the Day of Judgment and does good deeds; they shall have their reward with their Lord and they shall neither have fear [for the future] nor any remorse [for the past].
This verse came for Jews for what they used to thought that they have some special link with God and they will go to Jannah and the rest of the people will go to hell.
So this is told here that going to jannah will not that you are Muslim,Jews,Nasaaraa or the Sabians,but because who ever full fill the requiments laid down in the Quran.See the full context of the verse above. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Sunday, July 22, 2007 - 1:44 AM
Quote:Hadith 2.
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
Quote: Hadith 3
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said "Without doubt my Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. Whenever you see disagreement, then hold fast to the Sawad-e-A'zam (the great majority)" [Ibne Majah]
Brother Usmani. I still remain unclear.One group out of 73 makes 1.1% of total. How can we then say that Muslim Ummah will never be gathered in misguidance. You are saying majority of one group. Please refer to my query. one group out of 73 does not constitute majority and thus contrdicts your statement that Muslim Ummah can not gather in misguidance |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 7:35 AM
Quote: Brother Usmani. I still remain unclear.One group out of 73 makes 1.1% of total
Reply: I think what Brother Usmani means here is that the 73rd group would have more people in it than all the people combined from the rest of the 72 groups. Hence, the 73rd group will be the group containing majority of people. So the calculation is not as simple as 1/73=1.1%.
The calculation would be =
(No. or People in 73rd Group)/(Sum of people in rest of 72 Groups)
But the concern remains, Has such a majority ever existed? Can even Sunnis claim consensus on all religious matters?
Secondly, whether people at Al-Mawrid are qualified or not depends on what, and how much have they studied. Their qualification does not depend on whether they agree with a pre-supposed 'majority' or not. I may disagree with the neo-classical economists, but that does not mean that they are not economists at all. That also does not mean that my degree in economics becomes invalid.
Salman |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 7:59 AM
The Beloved Prophet (Salla Allahu ta'ala alayhi wa Sallam) said " There was disagreement amongst Jews and they split into 72 groups. In exactly the same way, there will be disagreement and divisions in my Ummah. It will split into 73 groups. Apart from one of those groups, all the remaining 72 will be thrown into Hell."
brother Salman, just by reading this hadith how can you deduce what you have stated? This hadith does not mention majority of the group that is on the right. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 8:02 AM
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise14:1
bro Usmani where is the mention of hadith as means of getting out of darkness onto light |
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