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salmant
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 8:04 AM 
| Reading this Hadith along with the one about "Sawad-e-Azam", assuming same group has been referred in both, means that the 73rd group is the group with maximum people in it... |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 2:50 PM
Brother Waseem,
Quote:-Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise14:1
bro Usmani where is the mention of hadith as means of getting out of darkness onto light.
If the scripture is alone enough to bring forth mankind from darkness unto light than there was no need of a Messenger,that the reason it is said Messenger bring forth mankind from darkness unto light with the permission of their Lord.So if some one wish to get out from the darkness to light only with the help of Quran without referring to ahadith so he can never be able to found the light.One got to find how Messenger has explained the way getting into light.
And We did not send any messenger but with the language of his people, so that he might explain to them clearly; then Allah makes whom He pleases err and He guides whom He pleases and He is the Mighty, the Wise.(14:4)
O those who believe, respond to the call of Allâh and His Messenger when he calls you for what gives you life. (8:24)
And we sent no messenger, but that he should be obeyed by the leave of Allâh. (4:64)
It is also clarified by the Holy Qur’ân that the prophets are the spokesmen of Allâh’s pleasure. Hence, the obedience of the prophet is actually obedience of Allâh Himself.
And whoever obeys the Messenger, thereby obeys Allâh. (4:80)
And if you obey him (the Prophet), you shall find the right path. (24:54)
And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)
So ahadith are infact also the revelations of Allah as well, but in the words of Prophet(pbuh)
Say: This is my way. I call to Allâh with sure knowledge, I and whoever follows me. (12:108)
(Hârûn said:) And your Lord is the Rahmaan (the All-Merciful), so follow me and obey my command. (20:90)
Here Allah Has copy the words of Prophet Harun(pbuh) in Quran that follow Him and obey Prophet Harun commands and not just direct reveletions of Allah.So it is evident from here,we need to follow both Quran and Sunnah to get into light from darkness.Just following one will not do the job.
What elsc you need brother. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 10:58 PM
Quote:Reading this Hadith along with the one about "Sawad-e-Azam", assuming same group has been referred in both, means that the 73rd group is the group with maximum people in it...
If we accept that majority of muslims is the criteria for something to be correct,would be irrespective of what my inborn guidance says.If someone is in Afghanistan, would they ahve to agree with taliban, without choice? If in Saudi Arabia to wahabhi ways.In Iran what would be the course, we cannot keep changing the gaol posts and say we will accept majority where it suits us |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:06 PM
Quote:-Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise14:1
bro Usmani where is the mention of hadith as means of getting out of darkness onto light.
If the scripture is alone enough to bring forth mankind from darkness unto light than there was no need of a Messenger,that the reason it is said Messenger bring forth mankind from darkness unto light with the permission of their Lord.So if some one wish to get out from the darkness to light only with the help of Quran without referring to ahadith so he can never be able to found the light.One got to find how Messenger has explained the way getting into light.
Partly true. But messenger is what a messenger means. responsible for conveying the divine message,explain and elaborate the divine message, and showed practical example of practical living of the instructions of the divine message.Messenger is not going to create new instructions outside Qur'an which he was instructed to convey and explain. Divine guidance is kept in Loh i Mahfooz and conveyed via Hazrat Gabriel. This was completed with Qur'an and we have no reliable information to say that Hazrat Gabriel kept bringing further divine guidance to prophet pbuh in the form of ahadith. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, July 23, 2007 - 11:09 PM
Quote:-Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise14:1
bro Usmani where is the mention of hadith as means of getting out of darkness onto light.
If the scripture is alone enough to bring forth mankind from darkness unto light than there was no need of a Messenger
Messenger was the means chosen by Allah to instruct mankind with divine message. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 6:53 AM
Alif. Lam. Ra. (This is) a Scripture which We have revealed unto thee (Muhammad) that thereby thou mayst bring forth mankind from darkness unto light, by the permission of their Lord, unto the path of the Mighty, the Owner of Praise14:1
When I read this verse, in my humble opinion and knowledge,I recognise the following stresses.
a) Scripture revealed unto thee( Muhammad pbuh)
b) SO you can bring forth mankind from darkness to light.
c) by permission of their Lord
d) onto the path of the all-Mighty
e) the owner of praise.
What I understand from it is that prophet pbuh is the source,chosen for the divine guidance to be revealed to mankind and the revealed Book remains the divine guidance. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 7:22 AM
Quote: If we accept that majority of muslims is the criteria for something to be correct,would be irrespective of what my inborn guidance says.If someone is in Afghanistan, would they ahve to agree with taliban, without choice? If in Saudi Arabia to wahabhi ways.In Iran what would be the course, we cannot keep changing the gaol posts and say we will accept majority where it suits us.
Reply: Firstly, we are not discussing a localized majority here. As Mr. Usmani had pointed out in one of his posts, it is a majority of islamic scholars, of past and present, irrespective of their geography.
Now you are asking a different question. And that is whether it is correct to utilize a majority opinion in making a decision about two differing yet valid interpretations? I am saying, had such a majority existed where there would have a consensus on most matters, then it certainly would have been a good suggestion to follow a majority, because the chances of error would be minimized. My claim is such a majority has never existed, and the "Sawad -e-Azam" referred by Prophet, are people who basically agree on the accurate transfer of CONTENT OF RELIGION to us. That surely is a majority, but it cant judge between variant opinions as it itself holds diverse opinions.
Just a comment, which probably is irrelevant to this discussion....Even the concept of 'inborn guidance' can only be claimed on the basis of the reason that a large majority of all humans of all time have generally shown a consensus on certain ethical solutions. If we dont agree with that reasoning then it is not possible to justify a constant 'inborn guidance'. Everybody's inborn guidance would be unique and hence it would not be possible to claim one, constant guidance and use it as a reference point.
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 10:32 AM
Dear waseem,
Quote:-Messenger is not going to create new instructions outside Qur'an which he was instructed to convey and explain.
Who told you that? What is the source? Is it your inborn guidance? If you can not bring evidence from Quran then believe me it is Shaitan who creating such kind misleading information in yours mind.How you will explain the following verse please do it for me.
Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things,(7:157)
Quote:-Divine guidance is kept in Loh i Mahfooz and conveyed via Hazrat Gabriel. This was completed with Qur'an and we have no reliable information to say that Hazrat Gabriel kept bringing further divine guidance to prophet pbuh in the form of ahadith.\ follow me and obey my command.
Ok Then why Prophet Harun(pbuh)said here that “follow me and obey my command.Please explain it to me as well.
(Hârûn said:) And your Lord is the Rahmaan (the All-Merciful), so follow me and obey my command. (20:90)
I used to listen Ghammidi sahib once in while, even he will never 2nd yours opinion that ahadith never came through Hazrat Gabriel.That is my guess only on the basis on how he used to see ahadith.
Quote:-Messenger was the means chosen by Allah to instruct mankind with divine message.
What ever Messenger used to say in the matter of deen even other than Quran is also divine.
And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4) |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:08 AM
Quote:- ? I am saying, had such a majority existed where there would have a consensus on most matters, then it certainly would have been a good suggestion to follow a majority, because the chances of error would be minimized.
A very vast majority of Sunni muslims,the scholars of past and the current times have the consensus on the status of ahadith as basic source of religion. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:11 AM
And he (the Prophet (pbuh) does not speak out of his own desire. It is not but a revelation revealed (to him). (53:3-4)
Reply: This verse was an answer to the propaganda that was raised against the prophet raising doubts about the message of Islam. It was never meant to establish as a general rule that every word uttered from him is Divine. Scholars elaborate on this point in the explanation of this verse. For instance Maududi explains that: As for the other words, apart from the Qur'an, which the Holy Prophet (upon whom be peace) spoke, they could inevitably be of three kinds:
1) those words which he employed for preaching religion and inviting others to Allah, and for explaining the themes, teachings and commands of the Qur'an, or for giving admonition and instruction to the people to fulfil the object for which the Qur'an was revealed
2) those which the Holy Prophet spoke in connection with the struggle of raising Allah's Word and his services for establishing Islam. In this regard, he had to perform countless duties of different kinds as the leader and guide of the Muslim community
3) those he said concerning common matters of life as a man, which had nothing to do with the duties of Prophet hood, which he said before being appointed a Prophet as well as continued saying even after having been appointed a Prophet
Out of 1), 2) and 3) Maududi thinks only 1) is "revealed", the rest may or may not be revealed. Depends on the case at hand.
One may disagree with Maududi's catergorization, but it atleast proves one thing that scholars dont consider this verse as an evidence to the claim that all words spoken by the Prophet were divine in nature.
Salman
Edited by: salmant on Tuesday, July 24, 2007 11:14 AM |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:52 AM
Who told you that? What is the source? Is it your inborn guidance? If you can not bring evidence from Quran then believe me it is Shaitan who creating such kind misleading information in yours mind.How you will explain the following verse please do it for me.
With respect bro Usmani if we are discussing in this tone and manner then perhaps it is best to stop this discussion.Are you implying that I am possessed by shaitan? |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:55 AM
Reply: Firstly, we are not discussing a localized majority here. As Mr. Usmani had pointed out in one of his posts, it is a majority of islamic scholars, of past and present, irrespective of their geography.
With the current vast differences between Muslim fractions, How will we establish a universal consensus of Muslims based on majority. We need to look outside Pakistan and see how Islam is being practised in various parts of the world. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 11:59 AM
You said:-One may disagree with Maududi's catergorization, but it atleast proves one thing that scholars dont consider this verse as an evidence to the claim that all words spoken by the Prophet were divine in nature.
No one saying this here.Please see again what I have said.
What ever Messenger used to say in the matter of deen even other than Quran is also divine.
See what Maudoodi sahib have said for no.2)
Quote:-That is why whenever his personal judgment was even slightly turned away from Allah's pleasure, it was immediately rectified by manifest Revelation (wahi jali; ). This rectification of some of his personal judgments is itself a proof that all the rest of his religious judgments and interpretations were precisely in accordance with Divine Will.
So what I have said almost same has been said by Maudoodi sahib as well but he explained it in detail.So there no contradiction. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:10 PM
| OK. as long as you meant the same thing. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:11 PM
Brother Waseem,
Quote:-With respect bro Usmani if we are discussing in this tone and manner then perhaps it is best to stop this discussion.Are you implying that I am possessed by shaitan?
I apologize to you if this has heart you.I never means that.Brother Shaitan is after every one and he is our open enemy.Aprat from our diffrence of opinions between us, I have always found you a very true muslim and loving and careing person.Hope you will consider my apology and will reply to my previous post.
God Bless you |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:12 PM
Quote: With the current vast differences between Muslim fractions, How will we establish a universal consensus of Muslims based on majority
Reply: That is precisely my point. We cannot. |
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