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salmant
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 12:31 PM 
Quote: A very vast majority of Sunni muslims,the scholars of past and the current times have the consensus on the status of ahadith as basic source of religion.
Reply: But there hasnt been a consensus on how the Ahadith will be used, the limitations of usage, the applicability of injunctions etc. has always been under debate. If somebody now says that "Ahadith is not basic source", the statement needs to be translated into its functional meaning. Does it mean "No hadith will ever be glanced at in any religious matter", or does it refer to a particular limitation the person has identified. If it is a limitation introduced as an epistemological rule while considering Ahadith, in order to resolve the problem of uncertainty associated with Ahadith, then it cannot be condemned. Why? because such limitations have been introduced by eminent scholars like Imam Shafai as well while developing their Fiqh.
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, July 24, 2007 - 3:05 PM
But what about those people who openly says that.
1)Without ahdith there is nothing fall short in their religion.
2)We can not have any laws which is just based on ahadith.Prophet(pbuh) have only explained the Quran.He never brought any new laws other than what already there in Quran.
3)Ahadith are not authentic or there will very few.
Is there any divine backing for these kind of opinions. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 7:18 AM
| Again these statements would need to be translated into their functional meaning. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, July 25, 2007 - 11:23 AM
O men! eat the lawful and good things out of what is in the earth, and do not follow the footsteps of the shaitan; surely he is your open enemy.(Chapter #2, Verse #168)
But the shaitan made an evil suggestion to them that he might make manifest to them what had been hidden from them of their evil inclinations, and he said: Your Lord has not forbidden you this tree except that you may not both become two angels or that you may (not) become of the immortals.(Chapter #7, Verse #20)
And say: O my Lord! I seek refuge in Thee from the evil suggestions of the shaitans;(Chapter #23, Verse #97)
O children of Adam! let not the shaitan cause you to fall into affliction as he expelled your parents from the garden, pulling off from them both their clothing that he might show them their evil inclinations, he surely sees you, he as well as his host, from whence you cannot see them; surely We have made the shaitans to be the guardians of those who do not believe.(Chapter #7, Verse #27)
Surely (as for) those who return on their backs after that guidance has become manifest to them, the shaitan has made it a light matter to them; and He gives them respite.(Chapter #47, Verse #25)
By Allah, most certainly We sent (messengers) to nations before you, but the shaitan made their deeds fair-seeming to them, so he is their guardian today, and they shall have a painful punishment.(Chapter #16, Verse #63)
And say to My servants (that) they speak that which is best; surely the shaitan sows dissensions among them; surely the shaitan is an open enemy to man.(Chapter #17, Verse #53)
And among men there is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge and follows every rebellious shaitan; ( Chapter #22, Verse #3)
When Ambia are not safe from shaitan then who can claim that he is safe from him and he can not be possessed by him.
Who is yours friend the one who told you that you are in so and so danger so you might be able to do some precautions against it or the one who see you in danger and keep quite.Friend’s diagnose can always be wrong,they way friend said thing can also be wrong,but believe me his intention was not to let you down but to save you from the danger he felt.
God knows the best |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 6:05 AM
The Qur'an is a mi#za#n (scale that tells good from evil) and a furqa#n (distinguisher between good and evil) on this earth and a muhaymin (guardian) over other divine scriptures:
اللَّهُ الَّذِي أَنزَلَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ وَالْمِيزَانَ (17:42)
It is God who has revealed with truth the Book which is this scale [of justice]. (42:17)
The verse means that the Almighty has revealed the Qur’a#n which is a scale of justice meant to distinguish good from evil. It is the only scale that weighs every thing else, and there is in no scale in which it can be weighed:
تَبَارَكَ الَّذِي نَزَّلَ الْفُرْقَانَ عَلَى عَبْدِهِ لِيَكُونَ لِلْعَالَمِينَ نَذِيرًا (1:25)
Blessed be He who has revealed al-furqa#n to His servant that it may warn the whole world. (25:1)
The Qur’a#n is also a furqa#n in the same sense, ie a book which the final and absolute verdict to distinguish truth from falsehood. This word also connotes the fact that this Book is the standard on which everything needs to be judged and is a decisive word on matters which relate to religion. Every one must turn to it only to resolve differences of opinion. Nothing can be a judge on it; it shall reign supreme in the dominion of religion and every person is bound not make it subservient to any other thing:
وَأَنزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُم بَيْنَهُم بِمَا أَنزَلَ اللّهُ وَلاَ تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ (5: 48)
And [O Prophet!] We have revealed to you the Book with the truth in confirmation of the Book before it, and standing as a guardian over it. Therefore, give judgement among men according to the guidance revealed by God and do not yield to their whims by swerving from the truth revealed to you.
Bro Usmani
For QUr'an to be meezan, Furqan and muhaiman it has to be a complete source of religion. If divine instructions were still coming beyond the QUr'an then QUr'an cannot be called the above. So we need to decide where we stand with the QUra'n's claim about it. |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 6:11 AM
| As far as obeying the prophet pbuh is concerned, if the Prophet pbuh was alive among us then there would be no problem , the issue is the reliability of ahadith. The various sects in Islam have there basis in AHadith. Shiat scholars do not accept any ahadith from Hazrat Aiashah rta beacuse of her differences with Hazrat Ali rta. I am certain that your school of thought would not accept ahadith that shiat scholars claim are from prophet pbuh. Ahadith in contrsat to Qur'an lack the consensus and tawwatur of the Ummah. Compiled years after the death of prophet pbuh, in contrast to Qur'an. SO I am not challenging obeying the prophet I am questioning the reliability of what is claimed from the prophet pbuh |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 10:32 AM
| I agree, and the limitations placed on the use of Ahadith by our earlier scholars were because of the same reason that Waseem has mentioned. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 5:11 PM
Thanks brother waseem for writting me back.
From Tafheem-ul-Quran
25:1) Highly blessed *1 is He, Who has sent down Al-Furqan *2 , *3 to His servant so that it may be a warner to all mankind : *4
*4 .....warner to all mankind": To warn all mankind of the evil consequences of their heedlessness and deviation. The warner may be AI-Furgan or the Holy Prophet to whom it was revealed. In fact, both were the warners because they were both sent for one and the same purpose. The message of the Qur'an and Prophethood of Muhammad (Allah's peace and blessings be upon him) were not meant for any particular country but for the whole world; and not for their own time, but for alI times to come. This has been stated at several places in the Qur'an; for instance: "O Muhammad, say, O mankind, I am a Messenger to aII of you from Allah ....." (Al-A`raf: 158); "..... and this Qur'an has been revealed to me so that I should thereby warn you aII and whom it may reach." (AlAn'am: 19); "We have sent you only as a bearer of good news and as a warner to all mankind." (Saba: 28); and "We have sent you as a mercy to all mankind." (AIAnbiya': 107) The Holy Prophet himself has stated this clearly in the Hadith; for instance, he said: "I have been sent to aII men-the red and the black." "Before me a Prophet was sent only to his own people, but 1 have been sent to all mankind." (Bukhari, Muslim). "I have been sent to all mankind, and I am the Last of the Prophets." (Muslim).
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Having red the above verses of Furqan,don’t you think that we have to still obey the Prophet(pbuh) even though He is not alive. If you still think that yours following words are correct and what is up there is not correct,so please provide some references from Furqan.Because yours and mine own saying can be wrong.As you yours self says that AI-Furqan is the Criterion for judging right and wrong virtue and vice, truth and falsehood.
Quote:- As far as obeying the prophet pbuh is concerned, if the Prophet pbuh was alive among us then there would be no problem |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 7:24 PM
(42:17) It is Allah Who has sent down this Book with the truth and the Balance; *32 and what will make you understand that the Hour of Judgement might well have drawn near at hand? *33
*32 Mizan (Balance): the Shari ah of AIlah, which, like a balance, brings out clearly the distinction between the right and the wrong, the Truth and falsehood, justice and injustice, and righteousness and wickedness. In verse 15 above, the Holy Prophet has been made to say: "I have been commanded to do justice between you." Here, it has been told that with this Holy Book the "Balance" has come by which justice will be established.
From Tafheem ul Qur'an |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Thursday, July 26, 2007 - 7:28 PM
Al-Furgan: The Criterion. The Qur'an has been called AI-Furgan because it is the Criterion for judging right and wrong virtue and vice, truth and falsehood
From Tafheem UlQur'an
Bro Usmani you have not answered my query about Qur'an being Meezan and Furqaan |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 27, 2007 - 11:18 AM
Quote:-For QUr'an to be meezan, Furqan and muhaiman
It is correct.I don't know what is muhaiman if you can guide me on that.
Quote:-it has to be a complete source of religion.If divine instructions were still coming beyond the QUr'an then QUr'an cannot be called the above. So we need to decide where we stand with the QUra'n's claim about it.
These are yours own thinking and not the messege of Quran.If you think I am wrong to say that then please verify your above statement from Quran the Furqan.
Further more yours quoted verse (42:17) not talking about the athority of Prophet(pbuh) that we don't have to obey Him since He is not alive today.Plese give me a reply through Quran which must be on the this issue and not out of context. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 27, 2007 - 11:40 AM
Quote:-(42:17) It is Allah Who has sent down this Book with the truth and the Balance; *32 and what will make you understand that the Hour of Judgement might well have drawn near at hand? *33
*32 Mizan (Balance): the Shari ah of AIlah, which, like a balance, brings out clearly the distinction between the right and the wrong, the Truth and falsehood, justice and injustice, and righteousness and wickedness. In verse 15 above, the Holy Prophet has been made to say: "I have been commanded to do justice between you." Here, it has been told that with this Holy Book the "Balance" has come by which justice will be established.
Please read the Foot note No 32 care fully.The mezan has been said as shariah it is well known fact that shariah has been drive from Quran and the from Ahadith.So though Furqan juctice given to Prophet(pbuh) as well.So two thing are the mezan 1) Quran 2) words of Prophet(pbuh). |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 27, 2007 - 4:49 PM
In verse 15 above, the Holy Prophet has been made to say: "I have been commanded to do justice between you." Here, it has been told that with this Holy Book the "Balance" has come by which justice will be established.
brother Usmani you are quoting this interpretation and saying that meezan is Qur'an and ahadith. Can you tell me how can you interpret that when it staes and with this Holy Book the Balance By which justice has to be established |
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waseem
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Friday, July 27, 2007 - 4:51 PM
| I think we are now having discussion for the sake of discussion and not foor each other's benefit. I think we should close this discussion. Many thanks for your input |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, July 27, 2007 - 9:45 PM
Brother waseem.
If Quran is called AI-Furgan because it is the Criterion for judging right and wrong then yours following statement is very misleading one.As it is apper from the verses in my previous post that we have to still obey the prophet(pbuh) even though he is not alive.The only way to obey Him is to follow the record of His sayings and that are ahadith.Surely we should follow the ahadith which are sahih.I thanks you a lot for your valuable time for the discussion.May Allah give us tofiq to telly our thoughts from Furqan before it is become too dificult for us to gave up to our misleading thoughts which are not there in the Furqan at all.Ameen.
Quote:- As far as obeying the prophet pbuh is concerned, if the Prophet pbuh was alive among us then there would be no problem. |
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sibtil
INDIA
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Posted - Saturday, July 28, 2007 - 2:10 AM
| A simple naming terminology is of no consequence to the soul in this world but it means a phenomenal difference in life in the hereafter. Quite simply it’s a decision to be made by Allah for him on the day of the Judgment. |
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