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Rakhtal
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 3:28 PM 
Thanks! You are correct dear brother Usmani!
Edited by: Rakhtal on Saturday, May 20, 2006 3:32 PM |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Saturday, May 20, 2006 - 3:56 PM
Dear Brother usmani790,
I do not quite agree with your answer. Shaitan was not doomed because he disobeyed Allah. Adam (a.s.) also disobeyed Allah. We Muslims disobey Allah all the time.
A person does not get doomed for disobedience, and thank Allah for that for He is so merciful to us.
However Shaitan got doomed because he did not repent, but Adam (a.s.) repented. That is the big difference.
If a person does not follow rituals of Islam (hajj, roza, zakat) because he does not know of Islam or if he disobeys Allah all the time, but he still believes in one God, then no one can say he is going to hell - because Allah (s.w.t.) also said:
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . (2.63)
As for the verse you quoted about no other religion being accepted other than Islam - first you need to ask what is Islam. Are you limiting yourself in the definiton of Islam to anyone who follows the 5 pillars or some specific sects, or are you including other people who are monotheists and believe in Allah and the prophets and angels? |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 12:45 AM
Dear Oosman
"However Shaitan got doomed because he did not repent, but Adam (a.s.) repented. That is the big difference."
But the question is 'What sin the satan had comitted?"
He was only confused as to what order of God to obey; whether the standing fundamental order of bowing before God and none else or the current, apparently a contradictory order, asking angels to prostrate before Adam, then just a non-descript being created out of earth. The matter is further confused when God concedes the prayer of Satan and gives him the licence to confuse the progeny of Adam, similarly. So it is. We become self-appointed judges of faith, both of self and others, when God says 'only he knows what is in your heart'; and so become guilty of 'Shirk', an unpardonable sin. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, May 21, 2006 - 4:24 PM
Dear Tilawat,
You do sound very confused.
quote:
'What sin the satan had comitted'
The sin was disobedience. Just like Adam's sin was disobedience. Both disobeyed their Lord.
Whereas one repented, the other did not. That is what doomed Shaitan and saved Adam.
quote:
He was only confused as to what order of God to obey
Iblees was not confused at all. He understood the order completely and deliberately disobeyed. He even questioned the logic of Allah behind asking him to prostrate before someone made of inferior quality substance than he was. He was arrogant, then unrepenting.
quote:
The matter is further confused when God concedes the prayer of Satan
I do not see any confusion. God was going to try the human kind - granting the request of Iblees was a means to this end.
quote:
when God says 'only he knows what is in your heart
He knows what is in our hearts, but He is not the only one who knows that like you stated. Each of us also know what is in our heart.
quote:
and so become guilty of 'Shirk'
Howz that? |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 1:00 AM
I am certainly confused as Allah, as you say, deliberately created that confusion to test us human beings, the test which a genius like Satan, in your view, failed to pass. That cofusion was created , as Satan had said,by Allah by ordering angels to bow before Adam, contradicting His fundamental order of 'Touheed'. Had not Satan said a 'kalmae Haq' before the greatest of all? But Allah did not remove this confusion and you are also evading it.
You call denial of Satan as due to his arrogance. In fact he was confused and wanted to evade a greater sin of 'Shirk' which was unpardoable even by repentence. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, May 23, 2006 - 1:52 AM
If your are a practicing Muslim, and you do your daily 5 salat, then you prostrate before building made of bricks and stone. Prostrating before a creation does not mean you are doing shirk! Especially when Allah Himself asked us to do it, so there is no confusion or harm in prostrating before Allah's creation.
In parts of the holy Quran where the Iblees incident is described, it is very clear he was not confused - he was only arrogant, that is why he did not prostrate before Adam. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Friday, May 26, 2006 - 5:11 AM
Dear Oosman
Quote:-As for the verse you quoted about no other religion being accepted other than Islam - first you need to ask what is Islam. Are you limiting yourself in the definition of Islam to anyone who follows the 5 pillars or some specific sects, or are you including other people who are monotheists and believe in Allah and the prophets and angels?
Reply:-The verse (2:63) if you will read this in full context of earlier verses so you will find that Allah is talking about Joe people.They used to believe that they have some special relation with Allah and they will only go to Heaven and the rest are for hell only.Here Allah telling them that the criteria of going to heaven is not that you belong to a specific group or race but as mentioned in the verse.
If any person say in words and believe in heart that(There is no gods but Allah and Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah) so he is a Muslim .Failure in doing this and what so ever religion or race one believe and what so ever good deeds one will do,will not be benefited to him in hereafter.
Edited by: usmani790 on Friday, May 26, 2006 6:35 AM |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 12:19 AM
Dear Oosman
You say, "If your are a practicing Muslim, and you do your daily 5 salat, then you prostrate before building made of bricks and stone. Prostrating before a creation does not mean you are doing shirk! Especially when Allah Himself asked us to do it, so there is no confusion or harm in prostrating before Allah's creation"
If , as you say, there is no confusion or harm in prostrating before Allah's creation then what was wrong with the pre-Islamc Arabs that they were called 'Mushrikeen' fit only for the hell. Satan's point was that Allah was negating his integrity of 'Touheed' when He ordered angels to bow before a 'Non-Allah' who's progeny was going to create 'fassaad' on earth despite having been made of that very earth.
Besides, don't you yourself feel arrogant and self-righteous when you consider yourself a believer and be presunptuous of being favourite of Allah like the Jews (see verse 2.63 you quoted heretofore). In fact votaries of almost all religions think so. Only those who call themselves Muslims are being accused of creating 'Fassad-fil-arz' as they have the lowest of the thresfold of tolerance being overly self-righteous and bigotted. |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, May 27, 2006 - 1:43 PM
QUOTE: -. ………contradicting His fundamental order of 'Touheed'. Had not Satan said a 'kalmae Haq' before the greatest of all?
The concept is to obey God, “What He says”, “When He says”, “Where He says”……... He is not under any Rule. For Him there is no importance of any contradiction between any two of His orders or commandments because He is self-sufficient and HE DOES WHAT HE LIKES. |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 12:40 AM
Dear Lovall
One may do or say whatever one likes but 'Haq' (truth) is above all, the Super God, so to say. If there is no 'Haq' every thing is 'Baatil' (false, maya or fraud). So 'Haq Hoo' the Arif says. Haq does not allow the existence of 'Dooi' or Batil and cannot so be self-contradictory. |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, May 28, 2006 - 6:24 PM
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:51 AM
Dear Loveall
It may be so but as the Quran says, "Both Allah and Satan can confuse you and lead you astray with the difference that whereas the one lead astray by Satan can repent but the one whom Allah himself leads astray cannot find any guidance."
Just see Jihadies who kill innocent people even while praying in their places of worship don't ever repent but remain proud of their heinous action as jehad in the name of Allah till death.
"Darweshi bhi ayyari he sultani bhi ayyari
Kudaya yih tere sada dil bande kahan jaen"
(Allama Iqbal) |
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Minara
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, May 29, 2006 - 9:50 AM
Salam,
Brother, you should correct your understandings. Almighty God does not misguide/confuse any one. It is only Satan who does this. Please read the following points;
Most Muslims begin any religious speech or sermon by reciting a traditional prayer and praise to Allah, and the Prophet (S) and his family. In this prayer, the following words are constantly heard:
"Maee yahdihillahu fala mudilla lah, wa maee yudlilhu fala haadiya lah."
And the translation of this is usually given as:
"Whomever Allah guides, no one can misguide, and whomever Allah misguides, no one can guide."
Please keep these words in mind, while we look at the following facts from the Quran:
"And if, as is sure, there comes to you guidance from Me, whomsoever follows my guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. But those, who reject Faith and belie our Signs, they shall be companions of Fire, They shall abide therein." (2:38-39, Yusuf Ali)
"Say, ‘The Truth is from your Lord’: Let him who will, believe; and let him who will, reject…" (18:29, Yusuf Ali)
Now if Allah gives the freedom to accept or reject His guidance as is absolutely clear from the above verses, how can He also say that whomever He guides no one can misguide and whomever He misguides no one can guide? Clearly, these are two contradictory statements and Allah is beyond contradiction (4:82). Furthermore, there is nothing in the Quran which will lead to doubt (2:2, 32:2). Therefore, this requires us to stop and seriously think and ponder. We cannot simply say "Allah knows best." Or we cannot say "The Ulema know best," and move on as we usually do in such cases. Doing this is akin to giving an architect a contract to build our house, and then not caring to check what the architect is building. Wouldn’t it be foolish to leave everything to him while we ourselves go on with our daily routine? Perhaps when the architect is done and we move into our house, much to our surprise, we might find he has built us something we did not want. But in the case of the afterlife, it would be a shame if we go to move into our house only to see that our beloved architects have built our houses in the hellfire. This is why we need to double-check our "architects of Islam." The Ulema or religious scholars, always remind the Muslim masses of their ignorance of Islam. Perhaps they do not want us to analyze what they are building for us. That is why Iqbal says that we have to check ourselves and ask our own hearts:
"Ai Musalman apne dil se pooch, Mullah se na pooch."
"Oh Muslims! Ask your own hearts, do not ask the Mullahs (religious scholars)."
So let us ask ourselves: Why this contradiction? Obviously, there is some problem in our scholars’ interpretation and understanding of this issue. Also, we cannot simply brush this off by saying, "Since the majority of our Islamic scholars (i.e. Ijma’), agree on this issue, therefore we have to accept these two contradictory statements." Or, we also cannot accept the fact that this has been passed on by our ancestors and therefore, we have to accept this contradiction. The Quran says that kuffar and mushrikun used to say these things (2:170, 5:104, 31:21, 34:43, 43:21-24). Once again, we need to double-check our beloved architects of Islam, so that we can see for ourselves whether or not the house they are building is on a shaky foundation.
The final authority is only One, and that authority is Allah. And since our only contact with Allah is through his book, Al-Quran, the authority in Islam is therefore the Quran. The Quran is the only book which Allah has taken the responsibility to protect (15:9). No one can change it (6:34, 18:27, 10:64). It is complete (6:115). Nothing essential has been left out of it (6:38, 6:59, 10:61, 34:3). Those who do not decide matters according to what Allah has revealed (i.e. the Quran) are kafirs (5:44).
Coming back to the central question now: Does Allah personally misguide anyone? Most Muslims have one scapegoat which they always use when they are faced with such situations. They say, "Allah can do anything. He has unlimited power and control over everything and everyone." If that is the case, then why did Allah send His Book of guidance to us? Why did He send all His messengers? Why did our Prophet (S) face so many enemies in daily life as well as in the battlefields? Why did he (S) and the sahaba (R) suffer so much throughout their lives, for the sake of Allah? Allah has all the powers and he can do anything! He could have directly punished all the enemies of the Prophet (S)- but He didn’t. Instead, He ordered them to fight the enemies of Islam; to go to battlefields; and give their lives if need be- so much so, that they were warned that those who would try to run away from the battlefield will go directly to Hell (8:16).
There is yet another side of this usual reply of "Allah knows best," or "Allah can do anything." First, if that is so, then why do we need all these Ulema and religious scholars anyway? Since Allah can do anything (e.g. send anyone to Hell or Heaven as he pleases, give wealth or poverty to anyone, dignity or poverty to anyone, etc.), then why do human beings have to be held accountable for their deeds. It doesn’t seem fair and just or even logical to send someone to Hell if Allah misguided him or her. Second, the Quran clearly tells that it is Iblees who says that God misguided him and put him in the wrong (15:39). So is it not our duty to pause and seriously reflect on these extremely important questions impacting our lives—here as well as in the hereafter?
Before we come to resolve the above mentioned contradiction, it may help us in our search for an answer, if we pose another question: Does nature misguide us? This question is easy to comprehend as we are directly in contact with nature. We human beings impact nature directly by our activities and are impacted by it in our daily lives.
Does Nature Misguide Anyone?
The very question seems strange at first. But this will help us in drawing meaningful conclusions as there is a parallel argument in our search for an answer to our original question, "Does Allah misguide anyone?"
Nature has provided guidance to human beings since time immemorial- or, more appropriately, since the dawn of civilization. From the stars guiding the bedouin Arabs in the vast desert (without any signposts or milestones), to the ships, airplanes, and space vehicles equipped with sophisticated, modern, computerized navigation systems- it is Nature which ultimately provides the guidance for following the desired (right) path. It is also nature that provides indications in case of failure (wrong path). Nature provides guidance regarding truth and falsehood in every field of human knowledge and scientific endeavor. It is not nature that misguides, but our imperfect knowledge, improper designs, and improper observations misguide us. The moment knowledge advances to the level of perfect understanding in accordance with nature, human beings succeed in their missions. So, nature provides the touchstone (guidance) to test the validity of all the scientific hypotheses in the various areas of knowledge.
Now, let us consider another parallel argument. The question "Does Allah Misguide Anyone," can be cast as "Does the Quran Misguide Anyone?" This is because Allah has said whatever he had to say to humanity in its finality, totality, and completeness is in the Quran (6:115, 6:38, 10:37, 5:48). There will not come any other book from Allah, nor any other prophet from Allah after our last prophet (S) as declared by Allah in the Quran (33:40). Therefore, our relationship to Allah is only through His book, the Quran and nothing else.
Allah tells us the Quran was sent to guide and give glad tidings to the momineen (2:97). Those who will follow the Quran will benefit from it; those who will not, will suffer the consequences (10:108). Those who will follow it will be guided, and no one can misguide them, and those who will not follow it, will be misguided, and no one can guide them. Can there be any question or doubt about this? Clearly not. Can there be more than one interpretation of this statement? Obviously not. It is our choice whether or not to follow the Quran and after our choice is made, we get what we deserve. It is our choice which data to enter into the computer, and based on that, we get the right or wrong answer (guidance or misguidance). We cannot say the manufacturer magically chooses who will get right and who will get wrong answers. This is up to the person, and how he or she uses the computer. In the same way, Allah does not magically choose who will be guided or misguided, rather it is up to the person to choose the Quran as his guidance. If he chooses the Quran, he will be guided. If he chooses anything else, he will be misguided and no one can guide him. Therefore, the saying should be better translated as:
"Whomever Allah guides (i.e. those who independently choose to follow the Quran), no one can misguide, and whomever Allah misguides (i.e. those who choose to follow other than the Quran), no one can guide."
OR
"Whoever follows the Quran will be guided by Allah, and no one can misguide, and whoever does not follow the Quran, will not be guided by Allah, will be misguided, and no one can guide."
Allah does not directly do things for us; we have to do ourselves and follow his laws. Allah does not change our condition until we change our selves (i.e., change our psychology, mental attitudes and behavior) (13:11). However, there are many verses where Allah says that He does or does not do things for human beings. As we know Allah does not directly control the affairs of the human world—be they political, social, military or psychological. This confusion is removed by using the term "Allah’s law" instead of "Allah". After all, our contact with Allah is only through His laws. Allah has given us certain potential and we have to actualize it using His laws. This is very obvious in the material world. We use Allah’s laws in the material world (i.e., natural laws) for all kinds of scientific progress. Similarly, we have to use His laws (i.e., the Quran) in the human world for moral, ethical, and spiritual progress as well.
Let us list a few verses from the Quran to give some examples to illustrate the point above. [The translation is taken from Taqi-u-ddin Al-Hillali and Mohsin Khan.]
"Surely, Allah [i.e., Allah’s law] wastes not the reward of the Muhsinun." (9:120)
"Surely, Allah [i.e., Allah’s law] guides not the plot of the betrayers." (12:52)
"Verily, Allah [i.e., Allah’s law] does not set right the work of Al-Mufsidun (evil-doers, corrupts etc.). (10:81)
"And Allah [i.e., Allah’s law] guides not the people who are Al-Fasiqun (rebellious, disobedient to Allah). (9:24)
Minara
quote:
Dear Loveall
It may be so but as the Quran says, "Both Allah and Satan can confuse you and lead you astray with the difference that whereas the one lead astray by Satan can repent but the one whom Allah himself leads astray cannot find any guidance."
Just see Jihadies who kill innocent people even while praying in their places of worship don't ever repent but remain proud of their heinous action as jehad in the name of Allah till death.
"Darweshi bhi ayyari he sultani bhi ayyari
Kudaya yih tere sada dil bande kahan jaen"
(Allama Iqbal)
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 12:57 AM
| Oh dear Minara how simple you are. What a rigmarole you spinned to 'exonerate' Allah from His apparent contradictions. The dilemma in fact lies in the attempt of monotheists to unite gods of good (Yazdan) and evil (Ehrman) in a single personality whom Muslims called Allah. It was, so to say, a remix of Ehraman (god of evil) and Yazdaan (god of the good). They created Satan to substitute Ehrman as a subordinate to the One, called Allah. But how can the principal deny the doings of his delegatee? According to the Mulla Allah and natur are not answerable to anyone only the poor humans are answerable to Him whose agents on earth are the self-styled Mullah and Iblis; prophets having been banned altogether, according to the Mullah so that ' Galiaan ho jaanrh sunjia te wich Mirza yaar phire'. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, May 30, 2006 - 8:00 PM
Dear tilawat,
I don't understand why you are so confused about something so simple.
The pre-Islam pagan Arabs and modern Hindus prostrate before stone gods. Today Muslims prostrate before a stone structure Ka'ba. The difference between them is that the former believes the stone structure will help relay their prayers to a higher god. That is plainly shirk - giving some creation a power that is only worthy of the one Creator. As for the Muslims, they don't belive the stone structure Ka'ba has any divine attributes, it just marks the spot where Ibrahim (a.s.) built a place of worship and Muhammad (s.a.w.) asked his nation to worship so they are united.
Summary: prostrating before something does not mean you are commiting shirk. But believing that something will help you get special favors with the Creator, that is shirk. Muslims are told to ask directly from the Creator, and not through intermediaries.
The other comment that Allah and Shaitan both misguide, in context of the Quran and in my understanding, that is true. In Sura Baqara, it talks about the example of a knat, how small it is yet the unbelievers cannot even make it. Then it says the unbelievers are left wondering what this example means. And it says that Allah guides many through these examples, and Allah misguides many also with such examples, BUT He only misquides the fasiqeen.
And Allah knows best. |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, May 31, 2006 - 2:21 AM
You say, "As for the Muslims, they don't belive the stone structure Ka'ba has any divine attributes,...". But what about the black stone?
Hindus similarly accuse Muslim of worshipping stones wheras they consider their stone idols just symbols having no divine attributes whatsoever. |
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