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aboosait
INDIA
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 Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 2:34 AM 
quote:
usmani790 PAKISTAN Posted - Wednesday, February 14, 2007-9:42 AM
I am already tired of answering your nonsensical way for asking clarifications…......This is not the appropriate way for asking clarification brother,I am sorry
SahihalBukhari
كتاب الإيمان (The Book of Faith)
No. 33 - Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Amr:
The Prophet said,
"Whoever has the following four (characteristics) will be a pure hypocrite and whoever has one of the following four characteristics will have one characteristic of hypocrisy unless and until he gives it up.
1. Whenever he is entrusted, he betrays.
2. Whenever he speaks, he tells a lie.
3. Whenever he makes a covenant, he proves treacherous.
4. Whenever he quarrels, he behaves in a very imprudent, evil and insulting manner."
حدثنا قبيصة بن عقبة قال حدثنا سفيان عن الأعمش عن عبد الله بن مرة عن مسروق عن عبد الله بن عمرو أن النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم قال أربع من كن فيه كان منافقا خالصا ومن كانت فيه خصلة منهن كانت فيه خصلة من النفاق حتى يدعها إذا أؤتمن خان وإذا حدث كذب وإذا عاهد غدر وإذا خاصم فجر تابعه شعبة عن الأعمش . quote:
Frist you already used to assume things on my behave.
I have not assumed anything but I wish to quote your own words:
In the first quote you mean to say it is for Allah quote:
usmani790 PAKISTAN Posted - Monday, February 12, 2007 - 4:54 AM
Says to whom? Say to Allah and who else and it will better to say in Arabic
In the second quote you mean to say it is for yourself
quote:
usmani790 PAKISTAN Posted - Tuesday, February 13, 2007 - 5:09 AM
saying this zikr 100 time is ……… for a Muslim him self.
Also you deny that this zikr is from Allah for the purpose of understanding its meaning, for implimenting the principles in our lives and for propagating it.
I quote your own words:
quote:
If one have only little bit sense so he could easily understood by looking at the hadith that saying this zikr 100 time is not for that purpose which you are suggesting here but for a Muslim him self.
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 3:44 AM
quote:
.....a) The concept of God according to Tasawaff
b) The purpose of of life/humans according to tasawaff
c) Sources of knowledge/guidance according to tasawaff
d) Concept of tasawaff about prophets and life hereafter
Please if we can address the above topics to understand tasawaff and the reasons why its seperated from Islam and named tasawaff.
Wa Alaikum Assalam w.r.w.b.
Sufism is a blend of various thoughts and philosophies. By intermingling a few traces of Islamic teachings with it, the Sufi thinkers attempted to sanctify their doctrines and demonstrate its conformity to Islam
Greek philosophy, and in particular the teachings of Neo-Platonists, have left an indelible mark on many aspects of Sufism. This came about as a result of the translation of Greek philosophical works into Arabic during the third Islamic century. Greek pantheism became an integral part of Sufi doctrine.
Manicheanism is also one of the mainstreams of Sufism. N. Fatemi observed: "It is interesting how near to Manichean ideas the Sufis are, remembering that both Manicheanism and Sufism were nurtured in Persia.
Vedanta, the chief Hindu philosophy, which is an example of pantheism in its metaphysical strictness, also had a great impact on Sufism following the conquest of Sindh by Muhammad b. Qasim in the second century A.H.
Sufi occultism, with its host of philosophical and theosophical doctrines, is beyond doubt antithetical to Islam. Islam proclaims that the matchless entity and essence of Allah is totally different from that of His slaves, i.e., man. Sufis, on the contrary, subscribe to the belief that matter, man and God form in effect one single entity and essence.
Ibn Arabi's doctrine of pantheism was a combination of Manichean, Gnostic, Neo-Platonic, Vedantic and Christian philosophies and speculations, which he tried vainly to give an Islamic sanction by relating it to Prophetic traditions.
"Of his main theme," R.W.J. Austin wrote, "the one that predominates over the rest and to which they are subordinate in the oneness of being (wihdat al-wujood). The concept of the Oneness of Being is all-embracing one, in that all Ibn al-Arabi's other concepts are but facets of it, just as he would say that all distinction, difference and conflict are but apparent of a single and unique reality, the 'seamless garment' of Being, whose reality underlies all derivatives being and its experience."
Ahlu al-Sunnah wa al-Jama'ah, on the other hand, are agreed that Allah is One Alone, qualified with all the attributes wherewith He has qualified Himself and named with all names whereby He has named Himself, without resembling creation in any respect; that His essence does not resemble the essences of His creatures nor His attributes resemble theirs. Allah the Supreme says: which means, "There is nothing like unto Him; He is the Al-Hearing, the All-Seeing." |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 4:45 AM
Abusait
I Like to combine both what I have said earlier.
1)Says to whom? Say to Allah and who else and it will better to say in Arabic 2)saying this zikr 100 time is for a Muslim him self.
I hope this will help you to understand what I have said.
You said:-Also you deny that this zikr is from Allah for the purpose of understanding its meaning, for implimenting the principles in our lives and for propagating it. I quote your own words:
I wrote:- If one have only little bit sense so he could easily understood by looking at the hadith that saying this zikr 100 time is not for that purpose which you are suggesting here but for a Muslim him self.
You said earlier:- The objective cannot be achieved if you ‘say it in privacy of your house or as convenient’
You further said:- There are also things to be said in public and practised in our lives.
See the zikr now
None has the right to be worshipped but Allah, the Alone Who has no partners, to Him belongs Dominion and to Him belong all the Praises, and He has power over all things”
This zikr is not for this purpose which you said here as look at the hadith again “Prophet said say this zikr 100 time in a day” This not at all to be said in public 100 time in day.No one will listen it from you 100 times in day.One must ponder on hadith to undersatnd the purpose.
I will request you to please ponder on things before comenting on it.
Thank you |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 5:18 AM
Thank you Brother Imran for participating in the forum.I was waiting for you for quite a time.I hope with your participation,participant here will be benefited to undersand the Tassawuf better.
You said:-Please if we can address the above topics to understand tasawwuf and the reasons why its seperated from Islam and named tasawaff.
Following is some thing in this regards from the article,which I hope will clear this misconception of the peoples.
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It basically consists of dedication to worship, total dedication to Allah Most High, disregard for the finery and ornament of the world, abstinence from the pleasure, wealth, and prestige sought by most men, and retiring from others to worship alone. This was the general rule among the Companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and the early Muslims, but when involvement in this-worldly things became widespread from the second Islamic century onwards and people became absorbed in worldliness, those devoted to worship came to be called Sufiyya or People of Tasawwuf (Ibn Khaldun, al-Muqaddima [N.d. Reprint. Mecca: Dar al-Baz, 1397/1978], 467).
In Ibn Khaldun’s words, the content of Tasawwuf, "total dedication to Allah Most High," was, "the general rule among the Companions of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) and the early Muslims." So if the word did not exist in earliest times, we should not forget that this is also the case with many other Islamic disciplines, such as tafsir, ‘Koranic exegesis,’ or ‘ilm al-jarh wa ta‘dil, ‘the science of the positive and negative factors that affect hadith narrators acceptability,’ or ‘ilm al-tawhid, the science of belief in Islamic tenets of faith,’ all of which proved to be of the utmost importance to the correct preservation and transmission of the religion.
As for the origin of the word Tasawwuf, it may well be from Sufi, the person who does Tasawwuf, which seems to be etymologically prior to it, for the earliest mention of either term was by Hasan al-Basri who died 110 years after the Hijra, and is reported to have said, "I saw a Sufi circumambulating the Kaaba, and offered him a dirham, but he would not accept it.
Edited by: usmani790 on Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:48 AM |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Saturday, February 17, 2007 - 8:28 AM
quote:
[N.d. Reprint. Mecca: Dar al-Baz, 1397/1978], 467).............................As for the origin of the word Tasawwuf, it may well be from Sufi, the person who does Tasawwuf,..........Hasan al-Basri who died 110 years after the Hijra, and is reported to have said, "I saw a Sufi circumambulating the Kaaba, and offered him a dirham, but he would not accept it.
Edited by: usmani790 on Saturday, February 17, 2007 6:48 AM
You quoted some book on 'Tasawwuf' and your view on the origin of the word in question.
My previous posts will throw some light on the journey of tasawwuf thrugh the ages and its present posion and the position of its followers today.
You may also visit the following sites to see how much they have deviated..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v34n4A6utRU
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6761417473258986134&q=hadhra |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007 - 9:43 AM
Brother if some people are not follwing the guide line of the actual Tasawwuf and breaking the limits of the religion then how can it could be true to say that Tasawwuf it self is not correct.If some one not following the cammands of the religion then that person is wrong not that the religion itself is wrong.
Regards |
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imran776
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007 - 12:23 PM
Thanks Usmani790 for guiding us through the journey of tasawaff.
You said that
"but when involvement in this-worldly things became widespread from the second Islamic century onwards and people became absorbed in worldliness, those devoted to worship came to be called Sufiyya or People of Tasawwuf ".
What I conclude from this statement that:
a) Devotion to worship is what makes a sufi or is the basis of tasawaff.
b) Those devoted to worship were called Suffiya or people of Tasawuf lead me to believe that at that time the philosophy of tasawaff existsed and it was so obvious that one was able to distinguish between normal people/Muslims and sufis.
c) Whats so special to devotion to worship that makes a person/Muslim a sufi? If this is what Islam teaches as well why call it tasawuff? This is utter confusion then.
If you believe that there is no difference between Islam and Tasawaff then I won’t go for the word tasawaff. There is definitely something which makes tasawaff “TASAWAFF”. I want to know that and I guess is the only way to go on with this debate. |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007 - 1:05 PM
quote:
Brother if some people are not follwing the guide line of the actual Tasawwuf and breaking the limits of the religion
How is it possible brother? Thasawwuf itself means 'exceeding the limits prescribed by Islam in the name of seeking nearness to Allah' be it worship or self imposed hardship.quote:
If some one not following the cammands of the religion then that person is wrong not that the religion itself is wrong.
Does this mean that you admit your mistake in exceeding the limits prescribed by the Religion. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 19, 2007 - 6:38 PM
Quote:-How is it possible brother? Thasawwuf itself means 'exceeding the limits prescribed by Islam in the name of seeking nearness to Allah' be it worship or self imposed hardship.
This hard ship is already there in Quran and Sunnah,if you are not aware of it then its yours lack of knowlege.
Brother we are given this life once only,by following the tasawwuf if we could pleased God more so why don't we go for it.
One thing I will make sure that as untill now and in future as well InshaAllah, every thing I will present here,will be based on Quran and Sunnah.
What I expect from the participant here please don't just oppose me in the name of oposission.
Thanks |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 2:51 AM
quote:
every thing I will present here,will be based on Quran and Sunnah.
Then why dont you quote or at least give reference to the Ayat/Hadeeth? Even in todays post you have just stated the following without proof. quote:
1.This hard ship is already there in Quran and Sunnah,if you are not aware of it then its yours lack of knowlege.
2.by following the tasawwuf if we could pleased God more
Please provide proof for your above statements (I have numbered the statements for convenience). Nobody here claims to belong to the category called 'men of knowledge'. When you think that you know something you convey it to us and dont try to escape in this way by saying: quote:
then its yours lack of knowlege.
I dont think the Forum Rules allow you to make such statements. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 6:17 AM
Brother Imran
Quote:-Whats so special to devotion to worship that makes a person/Muslim a sufi?
Why do we take care of our parents more than others human beings then why not we must devoted to worship God who loves us more than our mothers.If a good person can be called by gentle man ,caretaker,Masiha,Qaid,Paasban and if these attributes are not wrong for a human being then what’s wrong with the word sufi.
Quote:-If this is what Islam teaches as well why call it tasawuff? This is utter confusion then.
So if the word did not exist in earliest times, we should not forget that this is also the case with many other Islamic disciplines, such as tafsir, ‘Koranic exegesis,’ or ‘ilm al-jarh wa ta‘dil, ‘the science of the positive and negative factors that affect hadith narrators acceptability,’ or ‘ilm al-tawhid, the science of belief in Islamic tenets of faith,’ all of which proved to be of the utmost importance to the correct preservation and transmission of the religion.
Quote:-If you believe that there is no difference between Islam and Tasawaff then I won’t go for the word tasawaff. There is definitely something which makes tasawaff “TASAWAFF”. I want to know that and I guess is the only way to go on with this debate.
This is just a negative propaganda which made it like that.These days we knows that the propaganda can make true to false and false can become true.The peoples who reverts to Islam specially from the western world,you ask him how they use to see Islam before they came closer to it.Because of so much negative propaganda they use to dislike it. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 8:19 AM
Quote: So if the word did not exist in earliest times, we should not forget that this is also the case with many other Islamic disciplines, such as tafsir, ‘Koranic exegesis,’ or ‘ilm al-jarh wa ta‘dil, ‘the science of the positive and negative factors that affect hadith narrators acceptability,’ or ‘ilm al-tawhid, the science of belief in Islamic tenets of faith,’ all of which proved to be of the utmost importance to the correct preservation and transmission of the religion.
Reply: Point taken. A new name is not the basis of its rejection. However, instead of straightaway denouncing any criticism as 'propaganda' - we must try to analyze the roots of the criticism. The claim of opponents of Sufism is that it differs with 'real islam', the proponents say it does not. Now even the definitions 'real islam' and interpretations of Quran and Sunnah differs between the two groups, hence the confusion. That is why I earlier suggested to go to the root of the problem and discuss that first, instead of specific matters such as Zikr etc. The root of the problem, is I think well described in Asif Iftikhar's discussion on Sufi Epistemology. I have provided the link in my earlier post.
Now the root question is that is a Sufi's 'ilqa', the same as 'wahi' in its certitude? Mr. Usmani said that 'ilqa' is specific to that person only. Point taken. However, the question remains regarding its certitude. Secondly, if we do allow such certitude to it, does it (ilqa) not then have the authority to give a Divine approval, to a particular interpretation of Quran&Sunnah? Hence making it possible for a Sufi to make a deviant interpretaion as part of religion (even if it is for him only)?
I ll appreciate if we focus on these questions this time...
Regards,
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 11:15 AM
Quote:-Please provide proof for your above statements (I have numbered the statements for convenience).
There are more than 200 places where Quran calling for do zikr.Two are here for you.
And do thou (O reader!) Bring thy Lord to remembrance in thy (very) soul, with humility and in reverence, without loudness in words, in the mornings and evenings; and be not thou of those who are unheedful.(7:205)
Those who are near to thy Lord, disdain not to do Him worship: They celebrate His praises, and bow down before Him. (7:206)
(Ayat(7:206) after reading this please do the sajda Tilawat)
who forsake their beds and invoke their Lord in fear and in hope(32:16)
Tafseer by Maudoodi Sahib
That is, "They worship their Lord instead of enjoying sensuous pleasures at night. They are not like the world-worshippers, who seek entertainments in music and dancing, drinking and merry-making, in the night in order to get relief from the day's fatigue and labour and toil. Instead, when they are free from their day's work and duties, they devote themselves to the adoration of their Lord, spend their nights in His remembrance, tremble out of fear of Him, and pin all their hopes on Him." "Who forsake their beds" dces not mean that they do not sleep at all at night, but that they spend a part of the night in Allah's worship.
I am sorry if you dislike some in my previous post.
Edited by: usmani790 on Tuesday, February 20, 2007 11:22 AM |
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imran776
UNITED KINGDOM
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Posted - Tuesday, February 20, 2007 - 5:24 PM
Brother Usmani
Your Quote:- Why do we take care of our parents more than others human beings then why not we must devoted to worship God who loves us more than our mothers.If a good person can be called by gentle man ,caretaker,Masiha,Qaid,Paasban and if these attributes are not wrong for a human being then what’s wrong with the word sufi.
It means that Islam in its own doesn’t mention all the necessary directions and directives to the ultimate devotion of God. Even if it does its incomplete.
And what about Momin? Do we need any other terminology apart from that. Do we have any doubts in devotion to worship of God by Momin . If yes then of course Sufi will have some extra characteristics and if not then why support sufi why not Momin.
Quote:- So if the word did not exist in earliest times, we should not forget that this is also the case with many other Islamic disciplines, such as tafsir, ‘Koranic exegesis,’ or ‘ilm al-jarh wa ta‘dil, ‘the science of the positive and negative factors that affect hadith narrators acceptability,’ or ‘ilm al-tawhid, the science of belief in Islamic tenets of faith,’ all of which proved to be of the utmost importance to the correct preservation and transmission of the religion.
All the new disciplines you yourself has called them “science of …..”. Do all the disciplines are Islam in their own? Tafseer is just a word used for the writing/speech explaining the meaning of Quran. The rest are to deal with the Hidath which was collected after Prophet’s (PBUH) life and principles were laid by human for a human effort and so on. All other remaining discipline can be seen and should be seen in their context. Now come to tasawaff. What does it say? What is it for?
Quote:-This is just a negative propaganda which made it like that.
What is negative propaganda: The concept that there is no difference between Islam and tasawaff or otherwise. What’s your thoughts on that? |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 3:27 AM
The two points I asked you to prove were, I repeat:
quote:
1.This hard ship is already there in Quran and Sunnah,if you are not aware of it then its yours lack of knowlege.
2.by following the tasawwuf if we could pleased God more
As I told you earlier, the preceding Ayat/succedding Ayat is needed to understand the meaning of the message contained. I had cited the example of the Ayat
فَوَيْلٌ لِّلْمُصَلِّينَ
Fawaylun lilmusalleena
107:4 So woe to the worshippers
And this Ayat cannot be understood unless read with the next Ayat.
(الَّذِينَ هُمْ عَن صَلَاتِهِمْ سَاهُونَ (107:5
Allatheena hum AAan salatihim sahoona
107:5 Who are neglectful of their prayers,
Verse 205 of Sura Al-A’raaf is a continuation of the previous verse and is addressed to the reader (O reader) and explains how to behave when the Qur’an is read.
7:204 When the Qur'an is read, listen to it with attention, and hold your peace: that ye may receive Mercy.
And do thou (O reader!) Bring thy Lord to remembrance in thy (very) soul, with humility and in reverence, without loudness in words, in the mornings and evenings; and be not thou of those who are unheedful.(7:205)
Those who are near to thy Lord, disdain not to do Him worship: They celebrate His praises, and bow down before Him. (7:206)
(I would like to bring to your notice that in a later edition of yousuf ali, the last phrase has been revised to read as ‘and prostrate before him’) in order to bring the meaning nearer to the Arabic phrase.
Similarly the meaning of the verse “…….who forsake their beds and invoke their Lord in fear and in hope” (32:16) is the continuation of the previous verse.
32:15 Only those believe in Our Signs, who, when they are recited to them, fall down in adoration, and celebrate the praises of their Lord, nor are they (ever) puffed up with pride
32:16 Their limbs do forsake their beds of sleep, the while they call on their Lord, in Fear and Hope: and they spend (in charity) out of the sustenance which We have bestowed on them.
These commands have been further made clear in the Sunnah of the prophet sallallahu alaihhi wasallam from which we understand about its reference to the Salah (what you call namaz in Pakistan and India) and the recitation (studying) of the Qur’an.(soch samajh kar gaur o fakir ke saath tilawat karna—namaz ke ander ho ya baaher)
The meaning of the Arabic word dhikr (also spelt zikr) has a much wider meaning than the urdu word zikr.
It implies: to remember, to praise by frequently mentioning, to rehearse, to celebrate or commemorate, to make much of, to cherish the memory of as a precious possession.
However the limits for all this have been set in the Qur’an and Sunnah and we will be wrong doers if we transgress these limits. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 5:39 AM
Brother Salman
What will be the benefit (as far as this discussion is concern)If we got a answer which could be in affirmative or in negative.Say if it is in affirmative?What it will prove as far as the following the path of Tasawwuf is concern. |
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