| Author | Topic |
tilawat
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 1:33 AM 
Dear Oosman
I appreciate your attempt to justify your 'Aqeeda' and remove my philosophical confusion. But what about the facts? You say:-
"God prevents evil when He wants to. That shows he is able to do that. Many times He punishes bad people and prevents them from causing harm to innocent people. Especially if an oppressed person makes a prayer, God answers that person and punishes the oppressor in this life. Have you not see the example of Mukhatar Mai in Pakistan?"
Who was the oppressor and who was punished in Mai's case. The case was not judged under Hadoodullah and it is lying with the Supreme Court for a decision in appeal against the judgment of the High court according to which there was no evidence whatsoever in support of the false accusation of rape made by Mai against Mastoies. Mai did not seek the help of Allah as she did not go to the Shariat Court where she would surely had been held guilty of 'Qazaf'. It is only the Western media and the NGO's who are bolstering up Mai's image as a Hero to tarnish the name of Islam and the Muslim culture. In fact any body who accuses one of Zina and does not bring forth four eye-witnesses in support becomes guilty of 'Qazaf' according to Sharia. Do you accuse Mastoies of raping Mai? |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:18 PM
quote:
Mai did not seek the help of Allah as she did not go to the Shariat Court
What nonesense!!
You do not need to go to a man made sharia court to seek help of Allah! You go to the court of Allah to seek His help. For that you just ask Allah anywhere you are - He is every where, closer to you than your jugular vein.
Her oppressors have been disgraced all over the world. They continue to be humiliated every day. This is their punishment from Allah in this life, and there may be more to come in this life and hereafter. |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 12:49 AM
Oosman
My point is that Mai confessed that she was subjected to zina by a number of Mastoies but she could not as yet prove her accusation of rape in any court of law. So any body who supports her accusation of rape is guilty of 'Qazaf' in the eyes of Sharia.
Excuse me you belong perhaps to a low caste like Mai or production of the Hiramandi culture otherwise you would not have treated being raped as honourable when Mai herself is stated to have felt so dishonoured and humiliated that she had thought of commiting suicide after her rape, like all honourable women would do. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 5:39 AM
Mai is one example of how 'Allah' (not man) punishes the oppressors in this life. Those people are being humiliated and disgraced around the world.
There are many other examples of Allah's justice - they are lessons for all of us. Saddam Hussain's sons were killed like dogs with rabbies. These sons used to do horrible things to the poor people of Iraq. Perhaps some victim's prayer got answered. Now look at Saddam Hussain and his croonies. How they gassed and tortured their own people. Now see Allah's justice, how they are being tried and punished and disgraced in this world. See Hitler, what was his end for killing millions of people? This is Allah's justice in this life. Allah uses various means to carry out His justice, and it can be thourgh the hands of infidels, or natural disasters or diseases.
My point is Allah is watching, listening, and answering prayers, especially those prayers of the oppressed people - whether they are believers or not does not matter, we are all His beloved creatures and He answers us. |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 4:48 PM
You say, My belief that Almighty Allah does not inspire/help the people to do something evil or bad. It is Satan who inspires for these evil or bad things. If your interpretation is right then please tell me - “How is the misguiding by Satan different from the misguiding of Allah then”? “If Allah can misguide a girl to fornicate as in this case , how is that different from Satan”?
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You are correct. The ignorant and bigoted people cannot understand the truth. Their aim is to create hatred between the people of Allah
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
You say, It is not for you to judge if a salat that is missed is gone forever or not. It is for Allah to either accept it or reject it.
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Allah will accept or reject only if He has commanded so separately. There is no such divine command for your own will about the missed prayers. So do not dare imposing a lie on the Lord of the world and His book.
Ooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
You say, You know what, these stupid philosophical questions are all the same thing. They keep asking the same thing in different ways. I recommend you stop reading this philosophical crap. No wonder you are so confused. Ask Allah for knowledge, hikmat and guidance; so you see through the nonsense of this philosophy you quote.
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Those who are unanswerable like you actually pass such stupid comments. The following question of tilawat is valid which you are saying stupid and confused not because you are yourself well confused and unanswerable.
*>>>The saving of Kahba by Allah himself from Abraha, a Muslim of his time, when the same was a Mandir containing hundreds of idols raises many questions. Was Allah then only a national God of the Arabs? The Kahba was not a Kibla then even for the Arabs then why Allah protected its idols and their worshippers from a Chrischian Abraha (Muslim at that time)? Remember please that the Truth is above all>>>. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 6:01 PM
Actually you are imposing your beliefs on others and me. I have only said that Allah does what He wants, He is master of His will, and we cannot dictate what Allah does or does not do.
If you agree that Allah can do whatever He likes, then you must agree that He can accept late prayers if He wants to. Allah can do whatever He pleases.
And if you had actually read my reply without hatred, you would have realized I was not calling tilawat's comments as nonsense, but his quote of the philosophers comments as nonsense. I urge you to read the posts carefully before you start writing and spewing your hateful remarks.
peace be with you |
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Loveall
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 7:25 PM
To the concerned people,
IS THE FOLLOWING TEXT RELATED TO THE SUBJECT OF THIS FORUM?
I appreciate your attempt to justify your 'Aqeeda' and remove my philosophical confusion. But what about the facts? You say:-
"God prevents evil when He wants to. That shows he is able to do that. Many times He punishes bad people and prevents them from causing harm to innocent people. Especially if an oppressed person makes a prayer, God answers that person and punishes the oppressor in this life. Have you not see the example of Mukhatar Mai in Pakistan?"
Who was the oppressor and who was punished in Mai's case. The case was not judged under Hadoodullah and it is lying with the Supreme Court for a decision in appeal against the judgment of the High court according to which there was no evidence whatsoever in support of the false accusation of rape made by Mai against Mastoies. Mai did not seek the help of Allah as she did not go to the Shariat Court where she would surely had been held guilty of 'Qazaf'. It is only the Western media and the NGO's who are bolstering up Mai's image as a Hero to tarnish the name of Islam and the Muslim culture. In fact any body who accuses one of Zina and does not bring forth four eye-witnesses in support becomes guilty of 'Qazaf' according to Sharia. Do you accuse Mastoies of raping Mai?
oosman
USA Posted - Saturday, June 10, 2006 - 12:18 PM
quote:
Mai did not seek the help of Allah as she did not go to the Shariat Court
What nonesense!!
You do not need to go to a man made sharia court to seek help of Allah! You go to the court of Allah to seek His help. For that you just ask Allah anywhere you are - He is everywhere, closer to you than your jugular vein.
Her oppressors have been disgraced all over the world. They continue to be humiliated every day. This is their punishment from Allah in this life, and there may be more to come in this life and hereafter.
tilawat
PAKISTAN Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 12:49 AM
Oosman
My point is that Mai confessed that she was subjected to zina by a number of Mastoies but she could not as yet prove her accusation of rape in any court of law. So any body who supports her accusation of rape is guilty of 'Qazaf' in the eyes of Sharia.
Excuse me you belong perhaps to a low caste like Mai or production of the Hiramandi culture otherwise you would not have treated being raped as honourable when Mai herself is stated to have felt so dishonoured and humiliated that she had thought of commiting suicide after her rape, like all honourable women would do.
oosman
USA Posted - Sunday, June 11, 2006 - 5:39 AM
Mai is one example of how 'Allah' (not man) punishes the oppressors in this life. Those people are being humiliated and disgraced around the world.
There are many other examples of Allah's justice - they are lessons for all of us. Saddam Hussain's sons were killed like dogs with rabbies. These sons used to do horrible things to the poor people of Iraq. Perhaps some victim's prayer got answered. Now look at Saddam Hussain and his croonies. How they gassed and tortured their own people. Now see Allah's justice, how they are being tried and punished and disgraced in this world. See Hitler, what was his end for killing millions of people? This is Allah's justice in this life. Allah uses various means to carry out His justice, and it can be thourgh the hands of infidels, or natural disasters or diseases.
My point is Allah is watching, listening, and answering prayers, especially those prayers of the oppressed people - whether they are believers or not does not matter, we are all His beloved creatures and He answers us. |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:03 AM
you are becoming clever and telling a lie, oosman
you say……….And if you had actually read my reply without hatred, you would have realized I was not calling tilawat's comments as nonsense, but his quote of the philosophers comments as nonsense
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why are u telling a lie, If you are a muslin not a kafir? See your previos spewings fist then give such nonsense remarks.
If you are advising me why u yourself are spewing the hateful remarks????????????????? |
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Minara
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, June 12, 2006 - 12:02 PM
Brother oosman,salam,
Point-I
Brother, Almighty Allah can accept or reject anything, but this does not mean that He inspires evil or bad thing, because this is not his Sunnah according to Quran. Also you should remember that He will never change His Sunnah. He will give us reward for our good work and will punish us for our bad/evil work. He will never reject our good work if we do not do SHIRK with Him, but If we do SHIRK with Him then He will not accept our any good work and this is one of His Sunnat.
2ndly, I already told you that Almighty Allah does not communicate with us personally. Also I told you that Allah does not directly do things for us; we have to do ourselves and follow his laws i.e. Quran for ours. Allah does not change our condition until we change ourselves (i.e., change our psychology, mental attitudes and behavior) (13:11). Allah has said whatever he had to say to humanity in its finality, totality, and completeness is in the Quran (6:115, 6:38, 10:37, 5:48). Therefore, our relationship to Allah is only through His book, the Quran and nothing else. Since Quran says us that we must offer our regular salat at SPECIFIED TIME (4:103), so it is our duty to offer our salat at its specific time. As Quran is fully detailed, complete & perfect and as It does not say that we can offer our DUE SALAT at any time in the day, so offering DUE SALAT(Kaja Namaj) is not any religious rule of Islam. Now if you think that you can offer your due salat at any time in the day, then it will be a non-quranic idea and will be a new law(self created) besides Quran, which will definitely be fallen under the category of SHIRK with Almighty Allah, which HE will never forgive.
Point-II
You said in your earlier post that “If a bad person asks God that he wants to steal a diamond or kill someone's father, then Allah may accept his prayer and help him get his way. If someone wishes you harm, then Allah may accept their prayer and hurt you - in Urdu we call it 'nazr lug jana'”.
Against your above sayings I told you that Quran does not support your above thinking.
Now let us see the meaning of verse you mentioned 10:22
“He is the One who moves you across the land and sea. You get onto the ships, and they sail smoothly in a nice breeze. Then, while rejoicing therein, violent wind blows, and the waves surround them from every side. This is when they implore GOD, SINCERELY DEVOTING THEIR PRAYERS TO HIM ALONE: "If You only save us this time, we will be eternally appreciative."
This verse does not support your above idea. The sentence of the verse, “they implore GOD, SINCERELY DEVOTING THEIR PRAYERS TO HIM ALONE: If You only save us this time, we will be eternally appreciative”, clearly means that they implore sincerely to GOD ALONE for saving them, and they promise to GOD, after that (saving from danger) they will be appreciative and for this reason Almighty GOD gave him A CHANCE to them Because Almighty God is the Most Merciful. This verse does not say us that Almighty GOD accept the prayers of disbelievers, also it does not say that Almighty God helps the bad person who asks to God that he wants to steal a diamond or kill someone’s father..etc..etc…!!!!
You said: “The grand-father of the prophet was an unbeliever, yet he prayed to God when Abraha was attacking with the elephants”.
Qur’an does not support your theory that ‘since grand-father of prophet had prayed to Almighty God for saving the KABA, for this reason Almighty God saved that’!! KABA was rendered by Almighty God and may be for this reason HE saved this or may be because of Abraham’s prayer HE saved this;
(2:125 – 127) We have rendered the shrine (the Ka`aba) a focal point for the people, and a safe sanctuary. You may use Abraham's shrine as a prayer house. We commissioned Abraham and Ismail: "You shall purify My house for those who visit, those who live there, and those who bow and prostrate." Abraham prayed: "My Lord, make this a peaceful land, and provide its people with fruits. Provide for those who believe in GOD and the Last Day." (God) said, "I will also provide for those who disbelieve. I will let them enjoy, temporarily, then commit them to the retribution of Hell, and a miserable destiny." As Abraham raised the foundations of the shrine, together with Ismail (they prayed): "Our Lord, accept this from us. You are the Hearer, the Omniscient.
You said : And the most blaring example and proof that Allah grants prayers of the unbelievers is the fact that Allah granted the request of Shaitan that he be allowed to misguide humanity.
God accepted the plea of Iblis not for Iblis's benefit but out of God's mercy to give a
second chance TO ALL THOSE who sinned by not upholding God's absolute authority and instead siding with Iblis in his claim that he can be a god ....
Before the creation of the universe "a feud arose in the Heavenly Society"
( 38:67 – 69 )Say, "Here is awesome news. That you are totally oblivious to. I had no knowledge previously, about the feud in the High Society”.
WHAT I UNDERSTAND :- Satan, entertained supercilious thoughts that his God-given powers qualified him to be a god besides God. He thus challenged God's absolute authority. Consequent to Satan's blasphemy, a division occurred in the Heavenly Society. There were those who agreed with Satan (that he is capable of being a god). There were also those who were not sure, and then there were those who were under no doubt that God alone has the qualifications to be a god.
God gathered all those who sided with Satan and also those who were not sure and offered them a second chance to repent and submit to His absolute authority:
"We have offered the responsibility (freedom of choice) to the heavens and the earth, and the mountains, but they refused to bear it, and were afraid of it. But the human being accepted it; he was transgressing, ignorant." 33:72
While the vast majority of the guilty creatures took advantage of this opportunity, a minuscule minority failed to take advantage of this offer and arrogantly preferred to take the responsibility of the test. According to 33:72, we (humans) are among them!
As a result, all God's creatures were classified into four categories:
1. Angels: Creatures who upheld God's absolute authority.
2. Animals: Creatures who rebelled but then accepted God's invitation to repent.
3. Jinns: Creatures who agreed with Satan; that he is capable of being a "god."
4. Humans: Creatures who did not make up their minds; they failed to make a firm stand with God's absolute authority, they also rejected the second offer given to them.
The angels expected God to banish the creatures who did not uphold His absolute authority (2:30). But God is Most Merciful; He decided to give us a chance to denounce our mistake, and informed the angels that He knew what they did not know (2:30). God knew that some creatures deserved a chance to be redeemed.
God could have destroyed Iblis for his idolatrous claim but if God would have done that all the creatures who sided with Satan would not have found out whether Iblis's claim was true or false.
If you claim the ability to fly a plane, the best way to test your claim is to give you a plane and ask you to fly it. This is precisely what God decided to do in response to Satan's claim. God created seven vast universes, then informed the angels that He was appointing Satan as a 'khalifa' (temporarily ruler) on the tiny mote called "Earth" (2:30).
God's plan called for creating death (67:1-2), then bringing the humans and jinns into this
world for the soul purpose of rectifying their mistake and for worshipping God.
"I have not created the jinns and the humans for any purpose except to worship Me alone." 51:56
Thus, all humans and Jinn start over without any biases, and exercise full freedom to uphold God's absolute authority or Satan's polytheistic theory. To make this crucial decision, every human being receives a message from God advocating His absolute authority. This is given to the human in the form of the Scripture sent with guidance and way to salvation. Whoever accepts the guidance and submits to God will then be redeemed into God's Kingdom. Those who refuse it will end up in hell:
"We said, "Go down therefrom, all of you. When guidance comes to you from Me, those who follow My guidance will have no fear, nor will they grieve.
"As for those who disbelieve and reject our revelations, they will be dwellers of Hell, wherein they abide forever." 2:38-39
The human being will also receive a message from the devil pushing his polytheistic principles. To give us a headstart, the Most Merciful gathered all the human beings before Him, prior to sending us to this world, and we bore witness that He alone is our Lord and Master:
"Recall that your Lord summoned all the descendants of Adam, and had them bear witness for themselves: "Am I not your Lord?" They all said, "Yes. We bear witness." Thus, you cannot say on the Day of Resurrection, "We were not aware of this." 7:172
The fact that we all made such a pledge to God is reflected in our natural instinct that is an integral part of every human being. Our instincts come to the fore when we are at the danger of a near death situation. At that time, which may be a split second, our survival instinct takes over and we plead with God to save us, at that time we know that He alone can save us .....
The Quran confirms that we were all living in God's Kingdom before we were brought into this world. Although this is our first and only life on planet earth yet it is not our first existence. We were all living before the earth was even created. We were put to death and reborn into this life on earth:
"Most exalted is the One in whose hands is all kingship, and He is Omnipotent. The One who created death and life for the purpose of distinguishing those among you who would do better. He is the Almighty, the Forgiving" 67:1-2
Since nothing in the Quran is a coincidence, and since God is the Most precise in expressing and delivering any truth, we cannot overlook the order in which the words "The One who created death and life.....". The placing of the word "death" before the word "life" indictaes that we were put to death before we were brought to this life on earth, hence we must have been alive before we came to this world.
After putting the rebels to death, the souls of humans and jinns were placed in a special depository. God then created the appropriate bodies to house the souls of jinns and humans during the test period. The first jinn body was made from fire, and Satan was assigned to that body (15:27). The first human body was created from earthly material, clay (15:26), and God assigned the first human soul to that body. The divine plan called for the angels to serve the humans on earth - guard them, drive the wind and rain for them, distribute provisions, etc. This fact is stated in the Quran allegorically: "Your Lord said to the angels, `Fall prostrate before Adam.'" Satan of course refused to have anything to do with serving the human race (2:34, 7:11, 17:61, 18:50, 20:116).
God gave Adam certain commandments, represented by the forbidden tree, and Satan was appointed as Adam's companion to deliver to Adam his satanic message. The rest is history.
Every time a human being is born, a human person is assigned to the new baby from the depository of souls. God assigns the souls in accordance with His knowledge (28:68). Every soul deserves to be assigned to a certain body, and live under certain circumstances. God alone knows which souls are good and which souls are evil. Our children are assigned to our homes in accordance with God's plan.
An independent jinn soul is also assigned to the new human being to represent Satan's point of view. While the physical body of any jinn is reproduced from the parent jinns, the jinn soul is that of an independent individual. Jinns are descendants of Satan (7:27, 18:50).
The assigned jinn remains with the human being from birth to death, and serves as the main witness on the Day of Judgment (50:23). A continuous debate takes place in our heads between the human soul and the jinn soul until both of them are convinced of one point of view.
If the human person convinces his or her jinn companion to denounce that original sin, and uphold God's absolute authority, both creatures are redeemed to God's eternal kingdom on the Day of Judgment. But if the jinn companion convinces the human being to uphold Satan's idolatrous views, then both creatures are exiled forever from God's kingdom.
To promote his point of view, Satan and his representatives advocate the idolization of such powerless creatures as Muhammad, Jesus, Mary, and the saints. Since we are here due to our polytheistic tendencies, most of us are easy prey for Satan.
Satan's incompetence as a "god" has already been proven by the prevalence of chaos, disease, accidents, misery, and war throughout his dominion (36:66). On the other hand, the human beings who denounce Satan, uphold God's absolute authority, and refrain from idolizing powerless and dead creatures like Jesus and Muhammad, are restored to God's protection - they enjoy a perfect life here in this world and forever.
Because our life in this world is a series of tests designed to expose our polytheistic ideas, idol worship is the only unforgivable offense (4:48, 116). The world is divinely designed to manifest our decision to uphold either God's absolute authority, or Satan's idolatrous views (67:1-2). The day and the night change constantly to test our willingness to uphold God's laws by observing the Dawn Prayer and fasting during the hottest and longest days. Only those who are totally certain about God's absolute authority are redeemed (26:89).
THIS IS WHAT I UNDERSTAND
Minara. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Monday, June 12, 2006 - 2:50 PM
Minara,
Thank you for the detailed reply. It is quite interesting what you have stated, and quite knowledgeable.
I would like to clarify that I did not say God does evil or God inspires evil. I only said what is in the Quran, that God can lead some people away from the true path if He wants to. After that if these people, who had chosen to be misled by their own free will, they do evil, it is only their souls that they wrong and God does not do it to them.
The intersting thing about your answer is that you claim God only answers prayers of believers. If a non-believer is in some trouble and near death, he becomes a believer and prays to Allah to save him, so Allah may save him while he is a believer. But usually this person will turn back and become unbeliever again.
So like prophet's grandfather, or those people on the boat in the storm, they became beleivers in Allah for a moment while they prayed to Him - then they went back to shirk after Allah saved them.
Would you consider such a person to be a believer or unbeliever? A Hindu who does shirk all his life, but at the moment of death, he prays to Allah to save him, afterwards he goes back to shirk. Allah answered his prayer while the man became a believer momentarily.
I think such a person is an unbeliever, and that is what I meant when I said God answers the prayers of unbelievers also.
In the Quran, God calls Iblees a kafir (disbeliever) in 2.34. Even though Iblees believed in Allah, he is still called disbeliever, and Allah did answer his request to give him time to misguide humanity as a trial for us. It was the plan of Allah, but the thing is, Allah did answer his request. |
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Minara
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, June 14, 2006 - 11:35 AM
Salam brother Oosman,
You said:- Would you consider such a person to be a believer or unbeliever?
A Hindu who does shirk all his life, but at the moment of death, he prays to Allah to save him, afterwards he goes back to shirk. Allah answered his prayer while the man became a believer momentarily.
I think such a person is an unbeliever, and that is what I meant when I said God answers the prayers of unbelievers also.
>>> If any disbeliever or mushrik prays to God for saving him/her from hell fire near the time of his/her death, Almighty God does not accept his/her prayer. For an example, Almighty God did not accept the prayer of Pharao.
10:90 We delivered the Children of Israel across the sea. Pharaoh and his troops pursued them, aggressively and sinfully. When drowning became a reality for him, he said, "I believe that there is no god except the One in whom the Children of Israel have believed; I am a submitter."
10:91 "Too late! For you have rebelled already, and chose to be a transgressor.
Also please see;
40:84 Subsequently, when they saw our retribution they said, "Now we believe in GOD ALONE, and we now disbelieve in the idol worship that we used to practice."
40:85 Their belief then could not help them in the least, once they saw our retribution. Such is GOD's system that has been established to deal with His creatures; the disbelievers are always doomed.
Brother you should also know that Almighty Allah conditionally accepts the repentance;
4:17 Repentance is acceptable by GOD from those who fall in sin out of ignorance, then repent immediately thereafter. GOD redeems them. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
4:18 Not acceptable is the repentance of those who commit sins until death comes to them, then say, "Now I repent." Nor is it acceptable from those who die as disbelievers. For these, we have prepared a painful retribution.
So brother, God does not accept prayers/repentance from the idol worshipper also He does not forgive him if he maintains his idol worshipping till death, the Quran tells us that they are doomed and are destined to hell e.g. 4:116.
As for Hindu, if he repents and reforms then Almighty Allah will accept his repentance/prayer.
3:86 – 89 “Why should GOD guide people who disbelieved after believing, and after witnessing that the messenger is truth, and after solid proofs have been given to them? GOD does not guide the wicked. These have incurred condemnation by GOD, and the angels, and all the people. Eternally they abide therein; the retribution is never commuted for them, nor will they be reprieved. EXEMPTED ARE THOSE WHO REPENT THEREAFTER, AND REFORM. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful”.
3:90 “Those who disbelieve after believing, then plunge deeper into disbelief, their repentance will not be accepted from them; they are the real strayers”.
3:91 “Those who disbelieve and die as disbelievers, an earthful of gold will not be accepted from any of them, even if such a ransom were possible. They have incurred painful retribution; they will have no helpers”.
God only accepts the repentance of believers;
9:104 “Do they not realize that GOD accepts the repentance of His worshipers, and takes the charities, and that GOD is the Redeemer, Most Merciful?”
Even God does not accept the prayers of any believers if he prays on behalf of the idol worshippers(for them), for example;
Abraham(pbuh), God’s beloved servant, was not allowed to pray for his father (9:114).
Noah(pbuh) could not pray for his son (11:45-46).
Muhammad(pbuh) could not pray for his relatives (9:80).
Regarding Iblees, Almighty God gave him a chance also He too gave us and I explained this to you in detail through my previous mail. Iblees’s request was not the same as the prayer of any disbeliever. Don’t forget that Iblees was an Angel and was not a disbeliever before his refusal to prostrate before Adam. I hope you will understand this.
Minara. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 11:54 AM
Iblees was never an angel, please provide reference for this. It is true he was among the ranks of the angels, but he was still a jin.
You have given a detailed reply again with lot of verses, but you have missed the point totally.
You said a person who is unbeliever Allah does not accept his prayer.
You said an unbeliever at time of death, his sins will not be forgiven.
But I am not talking about such a situation.
I am talking about a person who is unbeliever, but seeing death he becomes a believer, then Allah saves him, after that person goes back to unbelief. This shows that Allah does accept prayers from such people.
The example in the Quran of the people on boat in the storm is of such a people.
The example of Pharoah is different because Allah chose not to save him and not to answer his plea.
And however you may want to rationalize the example of Iblees, it was simply that he requested Allah as an unbliever, and Allah accepted his request.
I see no point in continuing this conversation. I understand your opinion, but I do not agree with it as you have failed to prove your point. I have given you my evidence, but you refute it. Can we agree to disagree on this matter and put it to rest? |
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maskxone
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Thursday, June 15, 2006 - 4:26 PM
Assalam Alaykum,
I must say, this has been one interesting discussion between oosman and Minara (though drifted from the topic a bit).
Brother oosman said:
quote:
In the Quran, God calls Iblees a kafir (disbeliever) in 2.34. Even though Iblees believed in Allah, he is still called disbeliever, and Allah did answer his request to give him time to misguide humanity as a trial for us.
In my understanding Kaafir does not mean a non-believer but rejector.
Non-believer does not know or understand that Allah exists.
A rejector (kaafir) is one who know that Allah exists but still rejects to submit.
So Satan was a kaafir but believed in Allah.
And did he pray to Allah or challenged because of his pride (takabur). And in my understanding the near death scenario for a rejector and non-believer may be different.
Minara your concepts about Jinn, Humans, Angels etc are interesting and may explain many things. What I want to know is that is this entirely your own understanding or you used someone else's explanation (in parts). In the later case can you give the references?
Thank you for your attention. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006 - 12:31 AM
| Thank you for the correction that kafir means rejector and not unbeliever. |
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Minara
INDIA
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Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006 - 1:16 PM
Salam brother Oosman,
You said “I understand your opinion, but I do not agree with it as you have failed to prove your point”.
Where brother I failed? I proved from the Quran that there is no mentioned about due salat (Kaza salat). Since the Quran is complete and fully detailed and since there is no reference in the Quran about missed prayer, then logically we cannot say that praying due salat is a part of Islam.
Rather you opined that praying due salat is a part of Islam, yet you could not provide any reference from the Quran in support of your opinion. Then why do I agree with you brother? Probably you believe that quran is not fully detailed so you took the help of other books called Ahadith and so you opined that way. I don’t care about your this attitude, because I know that if we accept any other source as our source(religious)of Islam then it will be fallen under the category of SHIRK with Almighty Allah. Brother I don’t want to do shirk with Almighty. If you do, it will be your choice, I don’t care.
You Said:- I have given you my evidence, but you refute it. Can we agree to disagree on this matter and put it to rest?”
My Reply:- You claimed wrongly. Brother you did not still able to provide any reference from the Quran in support of your any opinion. Let us see your opinion, which you sent through this particular mail and try to see how far it will be acceptable.
You Said:- Iblees was never an angel, please provide reference for this. It is true he was among the ranks of the angels, but he was still a jin.
My Answer:- Could you please tell me what is the definition of the rank of Angels and also Iblees?
Now Please see;
(2:30-34) Recall that your Lord SAID TO THE ANGELS, "I am placing a temporary ruler on Earth." They said, "Will You place therein one who will spread evil therein and shed blood, while we sing Your praises, glorify You, and uphold Your absolute authority?" He said, "I know what you do not know." He taught Adam all the names then presented them to the angels, saying, "Give me the names of these, if you are right." They said, "Be You glorified, we have no knowledge, except that which You have taught us. You are the Omniscient, Most Wise." He said, "O Adam, tell them their names." When he told them their names, He said, "Did I not tell you that I know the secrets of the heavens and the earth? I know what you declare, and what you conceal." WHEN WE SAID TO THE ANGELS, "Fall prostrate before Adam," THEY FELL PROSTRATE, EXCEPT SATAN; he refused, was too arrogant, and a disbeliever.
(7:11) We created you, then we shaped you, then WE SAID TO THE ANGELS, "Fall prostrate before Adam." THEY FELL PROSTRATE, EXCEPT IBLEES; he was not with the prostrators.
(15:28 – 31) Your Lord SAID TO THE ANGELS, "I am creating a human being from aged mud, like the potter's clay. "Once I perfect him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." THE ANGELS FELL PROSTRATE; ALL OF THEM, EXCEPT IBLIS. He refused to be with the prostrators.
(17:61) WHEN WE SAID TO THE ANGELS, "Fall prostrate before Adam," they FELL PROSTRATE, EXCEPT SATAN. He said, "Shall I prostrate to one You created from mud?"
(20:116) Recall that we said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan; he refused.
(38:71 - 74) Your Lord said to the angels, "I am creating a human being from clay. "Once I design him, and blow into him from My spirit, you shall fall prostrate before him." THE ANGELS FELL PROSTRATE, ALL OF THEM, EXCEPT SATAN; he refused, and was too arrogant, unappreciative.
From All the above verses and many more it transpires clearly that Almighty God said to the ANGELS to fall prostrate before Adam. So Almighty Allah ordered to the ANGELS and all the Angels fell prostrate except Iblees.
The sentence “THE ANGELS FELL PROSTRATE, ALL OF THEM, EXCEPT SATAN(IBLEES)” clearly means Iblees was also amongst the Angels not only Jin as you opined.
Now I ask you ‘could you please give any reference from the Quran that Iblees WAS only a Jin not an angel’?
You Said:- You have given a detailed reply again with lot of verses, but you have missed the point totally. You said a person who is unbeliever Allah does not accept his prayer. You said an unbeliever at time of death, his sins will not be forgiven. But I am not talking about such a situation. I am talking about a person who is unbeliever, but seeing death he becomes a believer, then Allah saves him, after that person goes back to unbelief. This shows that Allah does accept prayers from such people.
My Answer:- I did not miss any point rather you brother. I simply told you that ‘Almighty Allah does not accept the prayers of unbelievers’ and it has already proved by me through the Quranic verses.
Now please come to your saying;
You told in your mail that “a person who is unbeliever, but seeing death HE BECOMES A BELIEVER, then Allah saves him”.
Brother you made this sentence, not me. Your above made sentence too means that Almighty God accepts only the prayer of believers. Please consider this;
If a person ask for repentance to God for his previous sins, then God accepts his repentance and after repenting and after becoming a believer if this person prays to God then he no longer a disbeliever and almighty Allah accepts his/her prayer because he is a believer. But brother, you can’t understand this simple point.
4:17 Repentance is acceptable by GOD from those who fall in sin out of ignorance, then repent immediately thereafter. GOD redeems them. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
4:18 Not acceptable is the repentance of those who commit sins UNTIL DEATH comes to them, then say, "Now I repent." Nor is it acceptable from those who die as disbelievers. For these, we have prepared a painful retribution.
You said:- And however you may want to rationalize the example of Iblees, it was simply that he requested Allah as an unbeliever, and Allah accepted his request.
Already brother maskxone corrected your wrong interpretation that Iblees was not unbeliever rather he was a rejecter.
You said:- I see no point in continuing this conversation.
My Answer:- It is your choice. You cannot suppress the truth.
Minara. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Friday, June 16, 2006 - 8:15 PM
Asslam alaikum,
We are having a dialog and trying to find out the truth. You are being arrogant in assuming you already know the truth. This is not a good method for an open debate.
The verses you have quoted about Allah asking the angels to prostrate to Adam and they prostrated except Iblees, they all only prove my point that he was among the ranks of the angels. None of the verses you quoted explicitly say he was an angel.
It is the style of the Quran that Iblees is referred to as an angle because he is included in their ranks, but not explicitly called an angel anywhere. Show me where Quran explicitly calls him an angel?
[Iblîs (Satan)] said: "I am better than he, You created me from fire, and You created him from clay." 38.76
Iblees was made of fire - angels are not made of fire. Also Iblees had a free will to disobey Allah, angels do not have a free will. Therefore Iblees cannot be called an angel.
There are different interpretations of your quoted verses. If you do not agree with my interpretation, it is fine with me. It is also the interpretation of scholars like Ibn-Khathir that Iblees was a jin. Allah will judge which is the correct interpretation - but do not be arrogant by saying you are right and everyone else is wrong. Only Allah knows.
Regarding answering of prayers, I believe that if anyone asks Allah for something (not ask some stone god or idol but ask Allah), then Allah may answer the prayer. There is no criteria that the person has to be a Muslim.
Allah says:
And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, I will respond to your (invocation). Verily! Those who scorn My worship they will surely enter Hell in humiliation!" 40.60
Allah does not put any preconditions to the invocations, only it is your whim. Allah invites anyone, Muslim or non-muslim, to call on to Him.
Regarding late prayers, Allah does not say anywhere he will not accept late prayers. The verse you quoted says prayers should be offered at proper times. It does not say they will be rejected otherwise. Show me where Quran says late prayers will be rejected? It is only your whim.
Allah knows best.
Edited by: oosman on Friday, June 16, 2006 9:08 PM |
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