| Author | Topic |
Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
 Posted - Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 5:01 PM 
Quote:
Then how do you know what you might be following in his, alleged, life and his alleged sayings were not also possible mistakes.
I said he was capable of making mistakes, I did not say he made mistakes. Yes, he did make a few mistakes in his lifetime, and Allah corrected him by revealing it in the Qur'an. Those were the only mistakes he made. Otherwise, he was a perfect human. When I say "perfect", I mean "perfect compared to other humans". Every sentence of his used to be better than the previous one. He stood on an "exalted standard of character" as the Qur'an puts it.
And I agree with you that the writer hasn't presented any proof of his writing. I'll try to get the proof, Inshaa-Allah.
Wassalaam. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
|
 Posted - Tuesday, December 26, 2006 - 9:13 PM
Salaam Nida
quote:
I said he was capable of making mistakes, I did not say he made mistakes.
and
quote:
Yes, he did make a few mistakes in his lifetime, and Allah corrected him by revealing it in the Qur'an. Those were the only mistakes he made
.
One needs to be careful as to what one means. Either you think he made some mistakes or he did not.
Even if you did not say it before. the above is crystal clear that you think he made some mistakes.
Also exactly how do you know that he did not make any other mistakes? Even disregarding this..I assumed to be perfect = 0 mistakes. So how many mistakes is a human allowed to make befor he is not considered to be perfect
quote:
Otherwise, he was a perfect human. When I say "perfect", I mean "perfect compared to other humans". Every sentence of his used to be better than the previous one. He stood on an "exalted standard of character" as the Qur'an puts it.
To some degree I agree with you as most things in life are relative.
However you did not directly answer my earlier point that the whole pilosphy of most (I would have said all but now i know that you are not one of them) of hadith followers is that he was/is infallible and made no mistakes in his life, hence the perfect being. Having made some mistakes (exact number not relevant) floors this logic.
quote:
And I agree with you that the writer hasn't presented any proof of his writing. I'll try to get the proof, Inshaa-Allah.
No problem take your time. Believe me you will need it....as it takes long time to find something which does not exist.
Oh and please do not give us another opinion, no matter how scholarly.
regards |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
 Posted - Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 7:38 PM
Quote:
...it takes long time to find something which does not exist.
You know something, perv1? The fact is that the proof lies in the Ahaadeeth and the consensus of scholars. Since you don't believe in both, I think it's useless to present any proof.
So the fact is that the truth DOES exist; but you're just not willing to accept it. And Allah knows best.
Quote:
...the whole pilosphy of most (I would have said all but now i know that you are not one of them) of hadith followers is that he was/is infallible and made no mistakes in his life, hence the perfect being. Having made some mistakes (exact number not relevant) floors this logic.
"Being infallible" means "being infallible compared to other humans". No-one (at least the majority) believes that the Prophet (SAW) was incapable of making mistakes. He was (and is) the best example, that's it! Saying that the Prophet (SAW) was incapable of committing errors is absurd, because he was human and not an angel. And Allah knows best.
Quote:
Either you think he made some mistakes or he did not.
I agree I presented two conflicting views. The Prphet (SAW) was capable of making mistakes, and he did make a few mistakes in his lifetime. But please note that making mistakes does not necessarily mean committing sins, because the Prophet (SAW) never committed sins. And again I'll state that Allah knows best.
Wassalaam. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Wednesday, December 27, 2006 - 8:31 PM
Salaam Nida
At least you are gracious enough to admit your own obvious contradiction. Shame you cannot apply the same logic to evaluating hadith... Anyway I think we are going to go round in circles regardings the prophets being fallible/infallible. Therefore not much can be gained from this issue. A least we have established that the prophet was only human and capable of making mistakes and therefore one can draw ones own conclusion.
quote:
You know something, perv1? The fact is that the proof lies in the Ahaadeeth and the consensus of scholars. Since you don't believe in both, I think it's useless to present any proof.
So the fact is that the truth DOES exist; but you're just not willing to accept it. And Allah knows best.
Ok lets play by the hadith believers rules. Provide some references where the prophet clearly said "I have now changed my mind and you can write what i say or as well as the Quran".
Consensus of scholars.. do you mean the majority as there are some who disagree with the above or do the hadith believers only conider someone a scholar if he/she agrees with them.
I shall wait your proof or for that matter from anyone else who might care to provide it.
regards |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 4:21 AM
To whom it concern
There is enough proof but only those who are serious in getting the knowledge in this regards.But for other who already conclude that the ahadith what we have today are not reliable without having any expertise on it,there is nothing for them, may be further misguidence I am afraid.
4. Writing
The fourth way of preserving of ahâdîth was writing. Quite a large number of the companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) reduced the ahâdîth to writing after hearing them from the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
It is true that in the beginning the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had forbidden some of his companions from writing anything other than the verses of the Holy Qur’ân. However, this prohibition was not because the ahâdîth had no authoritative value, but because the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had in the same breath ordered them to narrate his ahâdîth orally. The full text of the relevant hadîth is as follows:
Do not write (what you hear) from me, and whoever has written something (he heard) from me, he should erase it. Narrate to others (what you hear) from me; and whoever deliberately attributes a lie to me, he should prepare his seat in the Fire.” [Sahih Muslim]
The underlined phrase of the hadîth clarifies that prohibition for writing hadîth was not on account of negating its authority. The actual reason was that in the beginning of the revelation of the Holy Qur’ân, the companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) were not fully familiar with the Qur’ânic style, nor was the Holy Qur’ân compiled in a separate book form. In those days some companions began to write the ahâdîth along with the Qur’ânic text. Some explanations of the Holy Qur’ân given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) were written by some of them mixed with the Qur’ânic verses without any distinction between the two. It was therefore feared that it would lead to confuse the Qur’ânic text with the ahâdîth.
It was in this background that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) stopped this practice and ordered that anything written other than the Holy Qur’ân should be rubbed or omitted. It should be kept in mind that in those days there was a great shortage of writing paper. Even the verses of the Holy Qur’ân used to be written on pieces of leather, on planks of wood, on animal bones and sometimes on stones. It was much difficult to compile all those things in a book form, and if the ahâdîth were also written in the like manner it would be more difficult to distinguish between the writings of the Holy Qur’ân and those of the ahâdîth. The lack of familiarity with the Qur’ânic style would also help creating confusion.
For these reasons the Holy Prophet (pbuh) directed his companions to abstain from writing the ahâdîth and to confine their preservation to the first three ways which were equally reliable as discussed earlier.
But all this was in the earlier period of his prophethood. When the companions became fully conversant of the style of the Holy Qur’ân and writing paper became available, this transitory measure of precaution was taken back, because the danger of confusion between the Qur’ân and the hadîth no longer existed.
At this stage, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself directed his companions to write down the ahâdîth. Some of his instructions in this respect are quoted below:
1. One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said:
“Seek help from your right hand,” and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
2. Râfi’ ibn Khadij (RA ), the famous companion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) says, “I said to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied:
You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]
3. Sayyiduna Anas (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has said:
Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]
4. Sayyiduna Abu Râfi’ (RA) sought permission from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to write ahâdîth. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) permitted him to do so. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
It is reported that the ahâdîth written by Abu Râfi’ (RA ) were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn ‘Abbâs (RA) says:
I saw some small wooden boards with ‘Abdullâh Ibn ‘Abbâs. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he acquired from Abu Râfi’. [Tabaqât Ibn Sa’d]
5. ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Âs (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to him:
Preserve knowledge.
He asked, “and how should it be preserved?” The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, “by writing it.” [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]
In another report he says, “I came to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and told him, ‘I want to narrate your ahâdîth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’ The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, ‘If it is my hadîth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart.” [Sunan Dârimi]
6. It was for this reason that he used to write ahâdîth frequently. He himself says,
I used to write whatever I heard from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said, “Do you write everything you hear from the Holy Prophet (pbuh), while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be?” [Sunan Abu Dâwûd]
They meant that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) might say something in a state of anger which he did not seriously intend. So, one should be selective in writing his ahâdîth. ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr conveyed their opinion to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). In reply, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) pointed to his lips and said,
I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]
It was a clear and absolute order given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to write each and every saying of his without any hesitation or doubt about its authoritative nature.
In compliance to this order, ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr wrote a large number of ahâdîth and compiled them in a book form which he named, “al-Sahîfah al-Sadîqah.” Some details about this book shall be discussed later on, inshâ-Allâh.
7. During the conquest of Makkah (8 A.H.), the Holy Prophet (pbuh) delivered a detailed sermon containing a number of Sharî’ah imperatives, including human rights. One Yemenite person from the gathering, namely, Abu Shah, requested the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to provide him the sermon in a written form. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) thereafter ordered his companions as follows:
Write it down for Abu Shah. [Sahîh-ul-Bukhâri]
These seven examples are more than sufficient to prove that the writing of ahâdîth was not only permitted but also ordered by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and that the earlier bar against writing was only for a transitory period to avoid any possible confusion between the verses of the Holy Qur’ân and the ahâdîth. After this transitory period the fear of confusion ended, the bar was lifted and the companions were persuaded to preserve ahâdîth in a written form.
http://www.ccminc.faithweb.com/iqra/articles/authsun/chap3.html |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 9:31 AM
There, perv1! Brother usmani has given enough proof for you to ponder over it.
Wassalaam. |
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perv1
UNITED KINGDOM
|
Posted - Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 12:25 PM
quote:
But for other who already conclude that the ahadith what we have today are not reliable without having any expertise on it,there is nothing for them, may be further misguidence I am afraid.
Rightly guided and knowldgeable. For someone who refuses to believe what the Quran tells him regarding hadith.
quote:
4. Writing
The fourth way of preserving of ahâdîth was writing. Quite a large number of the companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) reduced the ahâdîth to writing after hearing them from the Holy Prophet (pbuh).
Ok let us see the evidence you have presented:
quote:
It is true that in the beginning the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had forbidden some of his companions from writing anything other than the verses of the Holy Qur’ân.
Only some of his companions. This is a new one. Do you mean he allowed some and banned others?
quote:
However, this prohibition was not because the ahâdîth had no authoritative value, but because the Holy Prophet (pbuh) had in the same breath ordered them to narrate his ahâdîth orally. The full text of the relevant hadîth is as follows:
Do not write (what you hear) from me, and whoever has written something (he heard) from me, he should erase it. Narrate to others (what you hear) from me; and whoever deliberately attributes a lie to me, he should prepare his seat in the Fire.” [Sahih Muslim]
Really! This is the actual wording of the hadith:
Abu Sa'id Khudri reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do not take down anything from me, and he who took down anything from me except the Quran, he should erase that and narrate from me, for there is no harm in it and he who attributed any falsehood to me-and Hammam said: I think he also said:" deliberately" -he should in fact find his abode in the Hell-Fire (Sahih Muslim, Book 042, Chapter 17, Number 7147).
You guys cannot even be relied on to quote your own evidence correctly.
quote:
The underlined phrase of the hadîth clarifies that prohibition for writing hadîth was not on account of negating its authority. The actual reason was that in the beginning of the revelation of the Holy Qur’ân, the companions of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) were not fully familiar with the Qur’ânic style, nor was the Holy Qur’ân compiled in a separate book form. In those days some companions began to write the ahâdîth along with the Qur’ânic text. Some explanations of the Holy Qur’ân given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) were written by some of them mixed with the Qur’ânic verses without any distinction between the two. It was therefore feared that it would lead to confuse the Qur’ânic text with the ahâdîth.
Are you seriousouly suggesting that it would have caused less confusion to memorise the sayings and actions then to write them down!
quote:
It was in this background that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) stopped this practice and ordered that anything written other than the Holy Qur’ân should be rubbed or omitted.
Your logic (or excuses) are astonishing.
quote:
It should be kept in mind that in those days there was a great shortage of writing paper
.
Wow! Well that explains it all. Shortage of paper! Anyhow i thought it was not to cause any confusion between the Quran. I thought if there was shortage of paper the prophet could simply said sorry chaps wait till we have some paper then write them down.
quote:
For these reasons the Holy Prophet (pbuh) directed his companions to abstain from writing the ahâdîth and to confine their preservation to the first three ways which were equally reliable as discussed earlier.
Even the verses of the Holy Qur’ân used to be written on pieces of leather, on planks of wood, on animal bones and sometimes on stones. It was much difficult to compile all those things in a book form, and if the ahâdîth were also written in the like manner it would be more difficult to distinguish between the writings of the Holy Qur’ân and those of the ahâdîth. The
But all this was in the earlier period of his prophethood. When the companions became fully conversant of the style of the Holy Qur’ân and writing paper became available, this transitory measure of precaution was taken back, because the danger of confusion between the Qur’ân and the hadîth no longer existed.
Truly amazing hypothesis. How about another one...The earlier followers had arthritis and found it difficult to write hence the prophet forbade them for writing anything until more younger fitter followers came along... i mean why not it is as good excuse as the one you guys seem to be conjuring up as you go along.
quote:
At this stage, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) himself directed his companions to write down the ahâdîth. Some of his instructions in this respect are quoted below:
OK lets see
quote:
1. One companion from the Ansâr complained to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) that he hears from him some ahâdîth, but he sometimes forgets them. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) said:
“Seek help from your right hand,” and pointed out to a writing. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
2. Râfi’ ibn Khadij (RA ), the famous companion of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) says, “I said to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) [that] we hear from you many things, should we write them down?” He replied:
You may write. There is no harm. [Tadrîb-ur-Râwi]
3. Sayyiduna Anas (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) has said:
Preserve knowledge by writing. [Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]
4. Sayyiduna Abu Râfi’ (RA) sought permission from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to write ahâdîth. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) permitted him to do so. [Jâmi’ Tirmidhi]
It is reported that the ahâdîth written by Abu Râfi’ (RA ) were copied by other companions too. Salma, a pupil of Ibn ‘Abbâs (RA) says:
I saw some small wooden boards with ‘Abdullâh Ibn ‘Abbâs. He was writing on them some reports of the acts of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) which he acquired from Abu Râfi’. [Tabaqât Ibn Sa’d]
5. ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr ibn al-‘Âs (RA) reports that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) said to him:
Preserve knowledge.
He asked, “and how should it be preserved?” The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, “by writing it.” [Mustadrik Hâkim; Jâmi’-ul-Bayân]
In another report he says, “I came to the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and told him, ‘I want to narrate your ahâdîth. So, I want to take assistance of my handwriting besides my heart. Do you deem it fit for me?’ The Holy Prophet (pbuh) replied, ‘If it is my hadîth you may seek help from your hand besides your heart.” [Sunan Dârimi]
6. It was for this reason that he used to write ahâdîth frequently. He himself says,
I used to write whatever I heard from the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and wanted to learn it by heart. Some people of the Quraysh dissuaded me and said, “Do you write everything you hear from the Holy Prophet (pbuh), while he is a human being and sometimes he may be in anger as any other human beings may be?” [Sunan Abu Dâwûd]
They meant that the Holy Prophet (pbuh) might say something in a state of anger which he did not seriously intend. So, one should be selective in writing his ahâdîth. ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr conveyed their opinion to the Holy Prophet (pbuh). In reply, the Holy Prophet (pbuh) pointed to his lips and said,
I swear by the One in whose hands is the soul of Muhammad: nothing comes out from these two (lips) except truth. So, do write. [Sunan Abu Dâwud; Tabaqât ibn Sa’d; Mustadrik-ul-Hâkim]
It was a clear and absolute order given by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to write each and every saying of his without any hesitation or doubt about its authoritative nature.
In compliance to this order, ‘Abdullâh ibn ‘Amr wrote a large number of ahâdîth and compiled them in a book form which he named, “al-Sahîfah al-Sadîqah.” Some details about this book shall be discussed later on, inshâ-Allâh.
7. During the conquest of Makkah (8 A.H.), the Holy Prophet (pbuh) delivered a detailed sermon containing a number of Sharî’ah imperatives, including human rights. One Yemenite person from the gathering, namely, Abu Shah, requested the Holy Prophet (pbuh) to provide him the sermon in a written form. The Holy Prophet (pbuh) thereafter ordered his companions as follows:
Write it down for Abu Shah. [Sahîh-ul-Bukhâri]
Please, at least, keep you excuses consistent...I thought there was shortage of paper earlier on or was there shortage of wooden boards as well. I mean was there plenty of supply of paper later on to lift the original ban.
Supposing new paper factories alleviated the problem. Did no one care to ask the prophet that you banned something earlier and why have you now changed your mind or why do you think something of such magnitude would not be explained by the prophet or no would question him on this U-Turn?
quote:
These seven examples are more than sufficient to prove that the writing of ahâdîth was not only permitted but also ordered by the Holy Prophet (pbuh) and that the earlier bar against writing was only for a transitory period to avoid any possible confusion between the verses of the Holy Qur’ân and the ahâdîth. After this transitory period the fear of confusion ended, the bar was lifted and the companions were persuaded to preserve ahâdîth in a written form.
Well it is again, like the whole lot ofhadith, is rather contradictory isn't? You guys accept he banned writing of these hadith and then come up with half baked excuses to justify the written form...without the slightest evidence from the prophet saying well you know guys I have now changed my mind.
Somehow I dont think you will see this as an obvious contradiction as you quite happily ignore countless other contradictions by using the lame excuse of weak hadith (whatever that means) and also are happy to accept something divine in which the prophet is described as a: paedophile, cruel, indulging in endless sexual activity amongst many other disgusting things.
regards |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Thursday, December 28, 2006 - 2:28 PM
Brother Usmani, please don't bother to reply, because he just doesn't wanna understand.
I think we should stop arguing and leave this issue. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:19 AM
| yes sister you are right,I will take your advice.This article is written by Mufti Taqi Usmani saheb,who is one of the leading Islamic scholar of this era. If a muslim of a average understanding of religion like me, object on his writing, it will be consider same as if a person who have average knowledge of of maths,argue with the person who is a well renowned expert of maths of this era. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
 Posted - Friday, December 29, 2006 - 4:39 AM
I agree.
And I appreciate you listening to this advice. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 2:57 PM
quote:
If a muslim of a average understanding of religion like me, object on his writing, it will be consider same as if a person who have average knowledge of of maths,argue with the person who is a well renowned expert of maths of this era.
This is not maths, this is Islam. And Allah has made religion easy for the common man to understand. Please do not make the same mistake that the Christians did centuries ago - they only allowed their experts to explain holy scripture. The holy scripture should be for everyone. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 7:45 PM
quote:
Please do not make the same mistake that the Christians did centuries ago - they only allowed their experts to explain holy scripture.
Excuse me, oosman, but if everyone starts following his own interpretation, wouldn't there be a spiritual chaos? Only a few of us are knowledgeable. If all of us start interpreting the way they like and what suits them best, then we'll only be following our own vain desires. And then, where lies the test? Allah himself says that you should follow the knowledgeable people among you. And this has always been the practice of the Sahaabah (RA).
Wassalaam. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Saturday, December 30, 2006 - 8:09 PM
THere are two things
We should not interpret according to what we like and dislike, we should interpret according to the truth. One must not follow their vain desires, and seek Allah's refuge against the accursed shaitan. If you feel you are weak and you will start following your vain desires, then seek help and people of knowledge. But everyone is not weak nor ignorant.
You may follow the knoweledgeable people, but at the end they are not responsible for you and you will be judged for your own decisions and the direction you took.
Having said that, you do realize there is already a lot of confusion and chaos when it comes to relgion. There are already too many so called knowledgeable people who are at odds with each other and give conflicting and wrong fatwas. If individuals like you and me start using our own intellect that God gave us and choose right from wrong using our moral meter, then there cannot be any more chaos then is already out there, in fact it will inshallah get better and there will be harmony. As Allah commands, let there be no compulsion in religion.
And Allah knows best. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
|
Posted - Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 3:00 PM
I agree that if scholars differ in any matter, then you should follow your own intellect in judging which one is right; but to say that we shouldn't consult a scholar at all, is not correct, my dear brother/sister.
Wassalaam. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 3:31 PM
| I never said that. My point is do not blindly obey the so called scholar. |
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Nida_e_Khair
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, December 31, 2006 - 7:06 PM
Oh! Why didn't you say that earlier? But anyway, yeah; ofcourse you're right. I never said we should follow a scholar in every matter. In fact we should have some knowledge of Islam ourselves so we can distinguish the right ones from the less-right ones.
What was the whole point of bringing up the quote of Brother usmani, by the way?---seeing that I agree with him and that he agrees with me, and then I agree with you as well?! |
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