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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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 Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 5:39 AM 
Brother Salman
Could you please quote what Iman Gazali has said and then show us the verses of Quran and Sunnah and then only explain how and where he is deviating.Just what he said in his book and some one's explanation will not prove any thing he said wrong.This is what I am requesting from you and this what needed to prove your point on scholatory grounds.
Regards, |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 6:03 AM
Please read. Please read. Please read.
I have quoted Imam Ghazali in my last post, from his book. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 6:13 AM
I am repeating this for the last time. Ghazali's words are quoted in blue, for your convenience:
In al-Munqad min al-Dalal, Ghazali explains the level of certitude that the Sufi attains (which by no means is less than the certitude in religion granted to the Prophets of God):
In the next place I recognized that certitude (al-‘ilm al-yaqini) is the clear and complete knowledge of things, such knowledge as leaves no room for doubt nor possibility of error and conjecture, so that there remains no room in the mind for error to find an entrance.
In case there is any doubt about the source of such certitude, consider what he writes in the same treatise:
From the time that they set out on this path, revelations commence for them. They come to see in the waking state angels and souls of prophets; they hear their voices and wise counsels. By means of beholding heavenly forms and images they rise by degrees to heights which human language cannot reach, which one cannot even indicate without falling into great and inevitable errors. The degree of proximity to Deity that they attain is regarded by some as intermixture of being (hulul)), by others as identification (ittihad), by others as intimate union (wasl). But all these expressions are wrong, as we have explained in our work entitled, ‘The Chief Aim’. Those who have reached that stage should confine themselves to repeating the verse ‘What I experience I shall not try to say’; Call me happy, but ask me no more. In short, he who does not arrive at the intuition of these truths by means of ecstasy knows only the name of inspiration (haqiqat al-nabuwwah). The miracles wrought by the saints are, in fact, merely the earliest forms of prophetic manifestation (bidaya al-anbiya’). |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 6:50 AM
Brother Salman
Brother What Imam Gazali has said I have red it.What I have requested in my earlier post that please also provide the verses of Quran and Sunnah as well.Which shows that what he said is agaisnt the Quran and Sunnah.
There is no Verse of Quran nither a hadith there yet from your side so far.I don't wish to engauge in a debate but which learn things directly from the main sources.If you unable to do that just tell me,I will not insist.
Thanks |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 7:35 AM
quote:
usmani790 PAKISTAN Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 5:17 AM
Dear Abusait
Could you please give me the referance of the following verse, you have quoted in your earlier post.
And who is more disbelieving than he who forges a lie against Allah, or says, 'It has been revealed to me,' when nothing has been revealed to him, or who says, 'I will send down the like of which Allah has sent down.'"
So your 'peer', 'murshad', 'sufi guide' whom you are blindly following (taklid)has hidden this message of Allah from you? You have also not come across verses in the Qur'an that mean this?
وَمَنْ أَظْلَمُ مِمَّنِ افْتَرَى عَلَى اللّهِ كَذِبًا أَوْ قَالَ أُوْحِيَ إِلَيَّ وَلَمْ يُوحَ إِلَيْهِ شَيْءٌ وَمَن قَالَ سَأُنزِلُ مِثْلَ مَا أَنَزلَ اللّهُ وَلَوْ تَرَى إِذِ الظَّالِمُونَ فِي غَمَرَاتِ الْمَوْتِ وَالْمَلآئِكَةُ بَاسِطُواْ أَيْدِيهِمْ أَخْرِجُواْ أَنفُسَكُمُ الْيَوْمَ تُجْزَوْنَ عَذَابَ الْهُونِ بِمَا كُنتُمْ تَقُولُونَ عَلَى اللّهِ غَيْرَ الْحَقِّ وَكُنتُمْ عَنْ آيَاتِهِ تَسْتَكْبِرُونَ (6:93)
Waman athlamu mimmani iftara AAala Allahi kathiban aw qala oohiya ilayya walam yooha ilayhi shayon waman qala saonzilu mithla ma anzala Allahu walaw tara ithi alththalimoona fee ghamarati almawti waalmalaikatu basitoo aydeehim akhrijoo anfusakumu alyawma tujzawna AAathaba alhooni bima kuntum taqooloona AAala Allahi ghayra alhaqqi wakuntum AAan ayatihi tastakbiroona
TRANSLATIONS:
Al-An'am (The Cattle)
English / Yusuf Ali
6:93 Who can be more wicked than one who inventeth a lie against Allah, or saith, "I have received inspiration," when he hath received none, or (again) who saith, "I can reveal the like of what Allah hath revealed"? If thou couldst but see how the wicked (do fare) in the flood of confusion at death! - the angels stretch forth their hands, (saying),"Yield up your souls: this day shall ye receive your reward,- a penalty of shame, for that ye used to tell lies against Allah, and scornfully to reject of His signs!"
English / Muhammad Asad
6:93 And who could be more wicked than he who invents a lie about God, or says, "This has been revealed unto me," the while nothing has been revealed to him? - or he who says, "I, too, can bestow from on high the like of what God has bestowed"? If thou couldst but see [how it will be] when these evildoers find themselves in the agonies of death, and the angels stretch forth their hands [and call]: "Give up your souls! Today you shall be requited with the suffering of humiliation for having attributed to God something that is not true, and for having persistently scorned His messages in your arrogance!"
English / M. Picktall
6:93 Who is guilty of more wrong than he who forgeth a lie against Allah, or saith : I am inspired, when he is not inspired in aught; and who saith: I will reveal the like of that which Allah hath revealed? If thou couldst see, when the wrong doers reach the pangs of death and the angels stretch their hands out, saying: Deliver up your souls. This day ye are awarded doom of degradation for that ye spake concerning Allah other than the truth, and scorned His portents. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 8:09 AM
Dear Abusait
What about the following verse.
(As for) those who say: Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying: Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.
( سورة فصلت , Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #30) |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 10:27 AM
Thanks Brother Usmani, for resorting to a more decent and reasonable way of discussing things now.
Although I am surprised that Imam Ghazali's words quoted above do not seem to you as differing from Quran and Sunnah, when
1) he claims for a sufi "clear and complete knowledge" - which according to Quran is an attribute of Allah only, and Quran says "There is nothing whatever like Him. (42: 11)"
2) Imam Ghazali, claims that "The miracles wrought by the saints are, in fact, merely the earliest forms of prophetic manifestation (bidaya al-anbiya’)" - Although Quran is clear on the fact the Muhammad (sws) is Last of the prophets and the wahi (access to Divine, hence certain knowledge) has stopped after Muhammad. Quran says, "
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things (33:40)."
3) What then is the philosophical difference in their claims and those of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani except that Qadiyani was ‘audacious’ enough to term the same idea of his ‘certain knowledge’ wahi?
Regards,
Salman |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Saturday, February 24, 2007 - 12:44 PM
quote:
Dear Abusait, What about the following verse.
(As for) those who say: Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying: Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.
( سورة فصلت , Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #30)
Brother Usmani, I had written to you earlier that the verses preceding and the verses that follow must be read to understand the meaning of the verse. I had explained this to you with an example.
Please go to page 6 and read the following post before proceding further:
quote:
aboosait INDIA Posted - Wednesday, February 21, 2007 - 3:27 AM
Now read on from 41:26 to 41:33.
وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا لَا تَسْمَعُوا لِهَذَا الْقُرْآنِ وَالْغَوْا فِيهِ لَعَلَّكُمْ تَغْلِبُونَ
And those who disbelieve say: "Listen not to this Qur'ân, and make noise in the midst of its (recitation) that you may overcome." (Fussilat 41:26)
فَلَنُذِيقَنَّ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا عَذَابًا شَدِيدًا وَلَنَجْزِيَنَّهُمْ أَسْوَأَ الَّذِي كَانُوا يَعْمَلُونَ
But surely, We shall cause those who disbelieve to taste a severe torment, and certainly, We shall requite them the worst of what they used to do. (Fussilat 41:27)
ذَلِكَ جَزَاء أَعْدَاء اللَّهِ النَّارُ لَهُمْ فِيهَا دَارُ الْخُلْدِ جَزَاء بِمَا كَانُوا بِآيَاتِنَا يَجْحَدُونَ
That is the recompense of the enemies of Allâh: The Fire, therein will be for them the eternal home, a (deserving) recompense for that they used to deny Our Ayât (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.). (Fussilat 41:28)
وَقَالَ الَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا رَبَّنَا أَرِنَا الَّذَيْنِ أَضَلَّانَا مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَالْإِنسِ نَجْعَلْهُمَا تَحْتَ أَقْدَامِنَا لِيَكُونَا مِنَ الْأَسْفَلِينَ
And those who disbelieve will say: "Our Lord! Show us those among jinns and men who led us astray, we shall crush them under our feet, so that they become the lowest." (Fussilat 41:29)
إِنَّ الَّذِينَ قَالُوا رَبُّنَا اللَّهُ ثُمَّ اسْتَقَامُوا تَتَنَزَّلُ عَلَيْهِمُ الْمَلَائِكَةُ أَلَّا تَخَافُوا وَلَا تَحْزَنُوا وَأَبْشِرُوا بِالْجَنَّةِ الَّتِي كُنتُمْ تُوعَدُونَ
Verily, those who say: "Our Lord is Allâh (Alone)," and then they Istaqâmû , on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying): "Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised! (Fussilat 41:30)
نَحْنُ أَوْلِيَاؤُكُمْ فِي الْحَيَاةِ الدُّنْيَا وَفِي الْآخِرَةِ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا مَا تَشْتَهِي أَنفُسُكُمْ وَلَكُمْ فِيهَا مَا تَدَّعُونَ
"We have been your friends in the life of this world and are (so) in the Hereafter. Therein you shall have (all) that your inner-selves desire, and therein you shall have (all) for which you ask for. (Fussilat 41:31)
نُزُلًا مِّنْ غَفُورٍ رَّحِيمٍ
"An entertainment from (Allâh), the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." (Fussilat 41:32)
وَمَنْ أَحْسَنُ قَوْلًا مِّمَّن دَعَا إِلَى اللَّهِ وَعَمِلَ صَالِحًا وَقَالَ إِنَّنِي مِنَ الْمُسْلِمِينَ
And who is better in speech than he who [says: "My Lord is Allâh (believes in His Oneness)," and then stands straight (acts upon His Order), and] invites (men) to Allâh's (Islâmic Monotheism), and does righteous deeds, and says: "I am one of the Muslims
Please write back after reading the above verses. |
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aboosait
INDIA
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Posted - Sunday, February 25, 2007 - 1:04 AM
Brother Usamani,
Assalamu Alaikum.
The Makkan pagans, in the early days of Islam, in order to dishonour and ridicule the Qur'an, divided what was so far reveled, into bits, and apportioned them to people coming on pilgrimage to Makkah by different routes, slandering and abusing the Prophet of Allah.
To know what Allah s.w.t. says on this topic please read from the Qur'an 15:88 to 15:93.
Wa s salm.
aboo. |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 7:35 AM
Dear Salman
Quote:- he claims for a sufi "clear and complete knowledge" - which according to Quran is an attribute of Allah only, and Quran says "There is nothing whatever like Him. (42: 11)"
What I understand by saying :clear and complete knowledge” knowledge which received through inspiration that there is no doubt in the certitude of that particular knowledge only.Its not says that they knows every thing like God Him Self knows.Please be careful in making such blame to the people of such hieghts.
Quote:- Imam Ghazali, claims that "The miracles wrought by the saints are, in fact, merely the earliest forms of prophetic manifestation (bidaya al-anbiya’)" - Although Quran is clear on the fact the Muhammad (sws) is Last of the prophets and the wahi (access to Divine, hence certain knowledge) has stopped after Muhammad. Quran says, "
Muhammad is not the father of any of your men, but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets: and Allah has full knowledge of all things (33:40)."
This verse says that there will be no Prophet after our’s Prophet(pbuh).Did he claming this for sufias?As for as the inspirations are concerned this is received by Prophets, Auliya and by every sincere Muslim.
As for) those who say: Our Lord is Allah, then continue in the right way, the angels descend upon them, saying: Fear not, nor be grieved, and receive good news of the garden which you were promised.Sura Fussilat, Chapter #41, Verse #30)
Narrated Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: The Prophet said, "If anyone of you sees a dream that he likes, then it is from Allah, and he should thank Allah for it and narrate it to others; but if he sees something else, i.e., a dream that he dislikes, then it is from Satan, and he should seek refuge with Allah from its evil, and he should not mention it to anybody, for it will not harm him." (Sahih Bukhari Book #87, Hadith #114)
Quote:- What then is the philosophical difference in their claims and those of Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani except that Qadiyani was ‘audacious’ enough to term the same idea of his ‘certain knowledge’ wahi?
Mirza Ghulam Ahmad Qadiyani has claimed to be a Prophet for himself and his teaching were against the Quran and Sunnah. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 8:09 AM
Note: (Your words have been highlighted in red, for the convenience of separating who is saying what)
Quote: What I understand by saying :clear and complete knowledge” knowledge which received through inspiration that there is no doubt in the certitude of that particular knowledge only.Its not says that they knows every thing like God Him Self knows.Please be careful in making such blame to the people of such hieghts.
Reply: Point taken. Thanks for clarifying, I had asked this question to bring you to this point, which you yourself have mentioned, so lets move forward.
Quote: This verse says that there will be no Prophet after our’s Prophet(pbuh).Did he claming this for sufias?As for as the inspirations are concerned this is received by Prophets, Auliya and by every sincere Muslim.
Reply: He is claiming for Sufia, in your own words, "knowledge which received through inspiration that there is no doubt in the certitude of that particular knowledge only",
that I am saying is Wahi which is specific to the prophets only.
Now you claim, that "this (inspiration) is received by Prophets, Auliya and by every sincere Muslim", Can you provide evidence from Quran and Sunnah on this?
I know you have mentioned a Hadith supporting this, the meaning of this Hadith is still ambigous to me, but as you yourself say, "A rulling of sharih can not be taken on this basis of zanni hadith but we still benifited from it a lot depending what its says.", So a single Hadith alone is not sufficient basis for this claim. Give some more evidence.
The only difference is that Qadiyani termed his 'inspiration' as 'wahi', Sufis call it 'ilqa'. So is it just the difference of words?
Regards,
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 10:09 AM
Dear Salman
The two verses you have quoted so far is not proving your point as I discribe in my earlier reply to you.
I am waiting for some concrete evidences from you.You said that book of Imam Gazali is breaking the limits provided by main sources.
Please prove it. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 10:24 AM
I have explained how they are going beyond the limits. Let me repeat it, 'wahi' is specific to the Prophets, by claiming 'ilqa' is similar in certitude to 'wahi', Sufia are going beyond the Quranic claim of end of Prophethood after Muhammad (sws). Please present your evidence to refute this.
Regards,
Salman |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 10:45 AM
Dear Salman
Prophet(pbuh) also used to recive the inspriration from Allah other than "wahi".Many ahadith are based on these inspirations. |
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salmant
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:10 AM
Quote: Prophet(pbuh) also used to recive the inspriration from Allah other than "wahi". Many ahadith are based on these inspirations.
Reply: How is this relevant to the discussion we are having?
You have yet to present evidence to refute my claim that Sufia are violating the end of prophethood (mentioned in verse 33:40), by claiming access to certain knowledge (wahi), which is specific to the Prophet only.
The Hadith you have quoted, mentions "dream that he likes", only. I am emphasizing the word "only". While if you recall Imam Ghazali says, "They come to see in the waking state angels and souls of prophets; they hear their voices and wise counsels". So Ghazali is not only referring to dreams, he is also suggesting access to angels, souls of prophets etc. Hasnt all of that ended with the end of Prophethood? |
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usmani790
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, February 26, 2007 - 11:54 AM
Dear Salman,
I wrote: Prophet(pbuh) also used to recive the inspriration from Allah other than "wahi". Many ahadith are based on these inspirations.
Your reply: How is this relevant to the discussion we are having?
To me it is very relevant ,its shows that inspiration could also have same level of certitude as wahi have.please educate me if you think I am wrong here.
Verse 33:40 is not talking about the certitude of inspirations.
Quote:-The Hadith you have quoted, mentions "dream that he likes", only. I am emphasizing the word "only". While if you recall Imam Ghazali says,
Atlest this hadith shows that people other than Ambia can aslo have some message or some thing from God.
Quote:-"They come to see in the waking state angels and souls of prophets; they hear their voices and wise counsels". So Ghazali is not only referring to dreams, he is also suggesting access to angels, souls of prophets etc. Hasnt all of that ended with the end of Prophethood?
You have to show some thing from Quran and Sunnah which says that other than Ambia can see all this as said above.
Regards, |
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