| Author | Topic |
oosman
USA
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 Posted - Friday, June 23, 2006 - 12:19 PM 
To Minara,
I have not quoted or based my answers on hadith or sunnah, everything is from the Quran.
I think you and Shamsher are both following the logic of the Submitters. |
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Zulfee
USA
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Posted - Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 1:23 AM
You said: What a futile exercise in obscurantism is going on! What difference does it make if Satan is called an angel or a jin.
There is a much difference if the sayings of Allah are not conveyed in the form as He said.
You said: I am sure that you are not aware of the Arabic language style of communication. When a group of people is addressed, the majority of peoples’ gender is used. The angels were more in number so their reference is used. You can ask any Arabic scholar about it.
You said: Mere translation do not proves anything.
Are you trying to say, ‘your whim proves every thing’
What a nonsense statement is, as if you were present at that time. Why did not God say, ‘Angels and Jinn or Angels and Iblees’. Do not try to impose a lie on your creator just for the sake your own prestige.
You said: and this is simple truth, but you people (TRADITIONALISTS) could not learn how to accept the simple truth in the Quran. I don’t care whether followers of Hislam not Islam agree with me or not, because I know that I can’t guide them. Only Almighty Allah can do this.
Excellent brother Samshir!!!!! |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 1:30 AM
Dear Nauman, you say:
"In Arabic language when a group of people is addressed, the majority of peoples’ gender is used. The angels were more in number so their reference is used. You can ask any Arabic scholar about it. Mere translation do not proves anything."
My question: Hpw do you know that God had addressed the angels in Arabic which caused this confusion? |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 11:05 AM
As-Salaamu Alaikum Tilawat,
I think you are forgetting that the Quran is addressing humans speaking Arabic and not angels. God is telling humans what actually happened that day. So God is using their style of language [Arabic]. Nobody is saying that God is speaking to angels and Iblis in Arabic.
The phrase “except Iblis. He was of the jinn” in Verse 18.50 clearly shows that he was among them who were asked to prostrate.
I say again; ask any Arabic scholar. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 3:08 PM
If you read verse 12 of sura Araf (chapter 7):
(Allâh) said: "What prevented you (O Iblîs) that you did not prostrate, when I commanded you?" Iblîs said: "I am better than him (Adam), You created me from fire, and him You created from clay."
It is very clear that Allah specifically commanded Ibless to prostrate and there was no confusion about it. |
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tilawat
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 12:55 AM
quote:
As-Salaamu Alaikum Tilawat,
I think you are forgetting that the Quran is addressing humans speaking Arabic and not angels. God is telling humans what actually happened that day. So God is using their style of language [Arabic]. Nobody is saying that God is speaking to angels and Iblis in Arabic.
The phrase “except Iblis. He was of the jinn” in Verse 18.50 clearly shows that he was among them who were asked to prostrate.
I say again; ask any Arabic scholar.
WAS dearNauman
You missed my point. In Quran God was not addressing any body but is only narrating an episode. In arabic it may imply anything but when it is being narrated in English it clearly implies that Iblis was an angel. If not what was he doing there in heaven? Some traditions say een that he was a teacher of the angels. Does it not hint that he was a 'genious', a mutation of angel? In fact all this humdrum of life (Hayyat-u-dunia) is due to him. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 8:58 AM
Salam brother,
Quote:- You did not comment on my statement: “This is very strange that Iblis after his conversion started arguing with God about his superiority instead of asking God why He made him Jinn?”
I think you avoided it intentionally.
Reply :- I did not avoid anything rather you could not understand my earlier reply dated 20th June, 2006. Secondly, you could not use any punctuation marks in your statement and for this reason I felt very confused what do you want to mean. Whatever may be, I had already told you that there are two important phrases in 18:50;
‘We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan. He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord. Will you choose him and his descendants as lords instead of Me, even though they are your enemies? What a miserable substitute’!
1- "We said to the angels, "Fall prostrate before Adam." They fell prostrate, except Satan." this phrase confirms that Satan (Iblees) was one of the angels, otherwise the command to prostrate given to the angels by God would not apply to him.
2- "He became a jinn, for he disobeyed the order of His Lord." the arabic words used here are "Kana min al-jinn" .... the arabic word "Kana" has two different meanings, the first is (WAS) and the second meaning is (BECAME). By simple logic we can find which meaning is intended for the word "kana" in 18:50. If you look at the first phrase again, we are told that Satan was an angel, thus the first meaning of the word "kana" , which is "WAS" cannot be the correct meaning. This is because Satan was an angel, he was not a jinn, this leaves the second meaning of the word "kana" which is "BECAME" ....and this is the correct meaning, SATAN WAS AN ANGEL, SINCE HE REBELLED AGAINST GOD SO HE BECAME A JINN . HE WAS AN ANGEL , THEN BECAME A JINN.
Iblis was made of fire when God made him a jinn, but before that he was an angel .......
So no question would arise about why Almighty Allah made him a Jinn.
Quote:- In Arabic language when a group of people is addressed, the majority of peoples’ gender is used. The angels were more in number so their reference is used. You can ask any Arabic scholar about it. Mere translation do not proves anything.
Answer:- What a ridiculous!!! What is the meaning of Gender? Do you think that “Iblees” & “Angels” were in the same group but different in gender? Secondly, what is called ‘Group’? Do you think that “Iblees and Angels” were in the same group? If so, then why do you disagree with me that Iblees WAS not an angel?
You should know what does mean to say ‘Gender’ within the same group of people. Jinn does not belong to the group of ‘Angels’. Jinn is one group and Angel is another group. So your statement is contradictory.
Secondly, what you said is absolute nonsense. God says He told the angels, God did not tell a group of people, nor a mixed group of angels and jinns, otherwise God would have told us so. God says He told THE ANGELS.
The Angels = the angels.
But the corrupt idiots who want to change the Quranic words to suit their arguments will say anything, absolutely any nonsense…… You have changed God’s words and to make them as;
The angels = a mixed group and the majority of them are angels !!!!!!
Many deceived Arabic speaking people put too much emphasis on their ability to appreciate the literature excellence of the Quran while missing the point of the need to appreciate the message itself, by following it.
Understanding that God guarantees that the MESSAGE of the Quran will be given to the whole world in any language in any place, means to understand that having the Quran as an Arabic or non-Arabic book would not make the difference and that is exactly what God is teaching us in 41:44
"If we made it a non-Arabic Quran they would have said, "Why did it come down in that language?" Whether it is Arabic or non-Arabic, say, "For those who believe, it is a guide and healing. As for those who disbelieve, they will be deaf and blind to it, as if they are being addressed from faraway." 41:44.
So brother I do not require to ask any long bearded corrupt traditionalist mullah, rather you should read Quran very carefully to know the real message of Almighty Allah to mankind.
Peace
Samsher. |
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Minara
INDIA
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 10:38 AM
quote:
To Minara,
I have not quoted or based my answers on hadith or sunnah, everything is from the Quran.
I think you and Shamsher are both following the logic of the Submitters.
Brother Oosman,
>>> . If you are truthful in your sayings, then why do you not show me the reference about missed prayer from the Quran? Brother, you can find the reference about missed prayer only in the book of hadith not in the quran and you follow hadith, but you have no courage even to accept it, what is your misfortune!!! .
I am following the logic and the truth of Quran, but idol worshippers will never see it.
I again say that Quran called Itself that IT is COMPLETE, PERFECT & FULLY DETAILED (6:38-39, 114-115) and all that we need for our salvation are given totally in the Quran.
Now think, if Quran is complete, perfect and fully detailed and if all that we need for our salvation are given fully in the quran, then the info. about missed prayer(due salat) would definitely be given in the quran, if it would require for us. In other words as this information (praying missed prayer at any time in the day) is not given by Almighty Allah in the quran, then it is not required for our salvation. This is the truth and this is the logic. But I already told that you are not able to understand this simple truth & logic because of your ego probleme.
Minara. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 11:43 AM
Minara,
You poor soul, you sound so confused and lost! I never said late prayers are needed for salvation! What makes you that?!!!
All I said that it is solely Allah's discretion whether or not He accepts late prayers. It is not your decision, so stop playing God.
I cannot show you something from the Quran that is not there, and that is why you should not put your own words into the Quran. Can you show me where Allah says He will not accept late prayers? I don't think so. So please stop saying such things that you have no knowledge of, and only Allah knows what He will do!
If there is any ego problem, it is certainly not with me, as I have said many times, I do not know and Allah knows. But you keep on stubbornly insisting that you know what Allah will do in this matter. How can you know what Allah will do on the Day of Judgement? Are you god? What arrogance!
And Allah knows best. |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Monday, June 26, 2006 - 1:29 PM
Dear Samsher,
Quote: I did not avoid anything rather you could not understand my earlier reply dated 20th June, 2006.
I do not agree with your interpretation of using the word ‘BECAME’.
Quote: Iblis was made of fire when God made him a jinn, but before that he was an angel.
So no question would arise about why Almighty Allah made him a Jinn.
Could you elaborate your above statements more? Are you saying that angels are made of fire too Or Iblis was the only angel who was made of fire?
Quote: Many deceived Arabic speaking people put too much emphasis on their ability to appreciate the literature excellence of the Quran while missing the point of the need to appreciate the message itself, by following it.
As far as the language discussion is concern; let’s forget it. If you could not get what I have written in my previous post; there is no use of any further discussion.
Dear Tilawat,
Quote: You missed my point. In Quran God was not addressing any body but is only narrating an episode.
Who is He narrating the episode? Aren’t these people are Arabic?
Quote: In arabic it may imply anything but when it is being narrated in English it clearly implies that Iblis was an angel.
This is the reason why I said one needs to translate the words in context of the language that is used.
If I say, “I put the cat to sleep” Are you going translate it in Urdu as; “Mai Nay Billy Ko Solaa Dia” OR “Mai Nay Billy Ko Maar Dia”
Quote: What was he doing there in heaven?
There is a difference of opinion on Adam being in Garden [Heaven] or on earth. I prefer the opinion in which the word “Jannah” is translated literally as Garden and not Heaven.
For more information please see the following link:
http://understanding-islam.com/related/text.asp?type=question&qid=511
Quote: Some traditions say that he was a teacher of the angels. Does it not hint that he was a 'genious', a mutation of angel? In fact all this humdrum of life (Hayyat-u-dunia) is due to him.
You need to quote these sources first.
Edited by: nauman on Tuesday, June 27, 2006 6:47 AM |
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Minara
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 10:41 AM
Salam brother Oosman,
Q:- You poor soul, you sound so confused and lost! I never said late prayers are needed for salvation! What makes you that?!!!
A:- What a logic!!! What is the meaning of Salvation, brother? If performing due prayers are not required, according to you, for our salvation then why do we perform this, and why do you say to others to perform it?
You agreed that due prayers are not required for your salvation. Thank God. Lastly you really done a good job by agreeing. The information, which are not required for our religion/salvation, are not in the Quran and we cannot also call them as Islamic, because they are not in the Quran. Brother, I have been telling you exactly that since long, but you could not understand this. It is your shortcoming.
Q:- All I said that it is solely Allah's discretion whether or not He accepts late prayers. It is not your decision, so stop playing God.
A:- Who are playing with God brother? I had already told you that Almighty God can accept anything but He will not accept the work of those who do SHIRK with Him and this is HIS Sunnah, which He will never change. If any religious information, which is not remained or which is not mentioned in the Quran and comes from outside source, yet if we call them as Islamic, then it will be fallen under the category of Shirk. The Islam had been completed through the revelation of Quran. The idea of due salat comes from fabricated hadith, which had been introduced long after the completion of Quran and Islam. If we follow this idea and consider it as Islamic then it will be SHIRK with Almighty God, which He will never accept from anyone. So no question will arise about due salat brother. Almighty Allah will not accept due salt as religious regulation because it comes form outside source, not from the Quran.
Q:- I cannot show you something from the Quran that is not there,
A:- Then why do people follow them and why do you opine them by saying as part of religion?
Q:- Can you show me where Allah says He will not accept late prayers?
A:- Smile. Again same nonsensical question. Do you not believe that Qur’an is fully detailed, complete and perfect? If so, then why do you demand of this immaturely? Quran is fully detailed, complete & perfect, that means everything that is required for our salvation or religion, is in the Qur’an. Therefore, if late prayers would require for our salvation/religion then it would definitely be given in the Quran. Logically, when Almighty God did not mention anything about due prayer in His Quran, rather HE told in the Quran that salat should be offered at its SPECIFIED TIMES, so it (offering due salat at any time in the day) will not require for us and it is not Islam. This is simple logic & truth, but you can’t understand this!! Alas!!
Q:- So please stop saying such things that you have no knowledge of
A:- I believe only on Quran, not on any fairy tale as you believe on. I never said that I know better than God(May Allah forgive us), but I think I have more knowledge about this particular subject than you.
Q:- How can you know what Allah will do on the Day of Judgement? Are you god? What arrogance!
A:- Brother, I did not show any kind of arrogance. It is your whimsical idea.
Almighty Allah says in His Quran what He will do and what He will not, in the day of judgment. I simply try to know all this from the Quran. If you will accept the Quran as your only religious source, then you will also be known about all this. But as far as you accept any other source(s) besides Quran as your religious sources, then you will never be known about this, you will be blinded to see the light.
Minara. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 11:22 AM
Salam Nauman,
Quote: I do not agree with your interpretation of using the word ‘BECAME’.
Reply:- It is your choice. There is no compulsion in religion.
Quote: Could you elaborate your above statements more? Are you saying that angels are made of fire too Or Iblis was the only angel who was made of fire?
Reply:- Iblis was made of fire when God made him a jinn, but before that he was an angel ....... in any case, what angels are made of is not the deciding factor here, the deciding factor is that God tells us that Satan was an angel and then became a jinn. If he was not angel then the command to prostrate given to the Angels by God would not apply to him.
Quote:- As far as the language discussion is concern; let’s forget it. If you could not get what I have written in my previous post; there is no use of any further discussion.
Reply:- What did you say in your earlier post, everyone of this particular forum could see it and also I replied to your said post very befittingly. Never forget this brother.
If you don’t want to discuss any further or if you want to leave this forum, then you can do it, it is your right.
Salam
Samsher. |
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Nauman
PAKISTAN
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Posted - Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 2:34 PM
Dear Samsher,
This is the nicest post that I have read from your side. I must thank you for that.
Quote: Iblis was made of fire when God made him a jinn, but before that he was an angel.
So according to you Angels are made of fire too. I am saying this because Quran clearly says that Jinn are made of fire. I would like you to comment on that.
And the jinn We created before, of intensely hot fire.[15.27]
Please clarify another point also. According to your understanding the events took place in the following manner:
1. God made Adam.
2. Then God asked angels to prostrate.
3. All angels did except Iblis.
4. God converted Iblis into Jinn as a punishment.
5. After punishing him God asked him why he did not prostrate. He said he was better than Adam because he was made of fire.
6. Then additional punishment imposed on him and Iblis was expelled from Heaven above. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Tuesday, June 27, 2006 - 2:44 PM
Dear Minara,
quote:
If we follow this idea and consider it as Islamic then it will be SHIRK with Almighty God, which He will never accept from anyone
Firstly, it is not shirk to follow something that is not against the Quran and word of Allah (swt); even if it comes from some other source than Quran.
The believers, men and women, are Auliyâ' (helpers, supporters, friends, protectors) of one another, they enjoin (on the people) Al-Ma'rûf (i.e. Islâmic Monotheism and all that Islâm orders one to do), and forbid (people) from Al-Munkar 9.71
The Ma'ruf can come from any source besides the Quran. All that is good is acceptable. Quran does not say all good is limited to the Quran, does it?
Please proove your claim that only the things from Quran are acceptable and all other good things not originally from Quran are not acceptable.
Secondly, please don't sound like you are god, don't say what He will accept and what He will not accept. This is not for you to decide, Allah will judge in the end and He is the King - not you.
quote:
Then why do people follow them and why do you opine them by saying as part of religion?
Because God says do whatever that is good and don't do evil. So we do what is good, and making late salat to make up for missed salat is doing something good. I do not see it as an inherently evil act - do you?
quote:
Therefore, if late prayers would require for our salvation/religion then it would definitely be given in the Quran.
Again you put your own words in my mouth. When did I ever say that late prayers are a must and a requirement? Please don't put your own words into my mouth. If someone wants to do late prayers, then there is nothing against it in the Quran - and you have no right to stop someone from doing it. If you don't want to do it, so be it. But if others do it, don't tell them they should not do it. Allah commands us to do good and eschew evil. Doing late prayers is good, nothing evil in it.
quote:
I believe only on Quran, not on any fairy tale as you believe on.
What faiy tale?
quote:
I have more knowledge about this particular subject than you.
Arrogance was the downfall of Iblees. Please mind yourself. Even the great sheiks and scholars of Islam never said what you have just said. And those people definitely did have the right to say that they have more knowledge than other people, as for you, I don't know who you are, what is your background, what you have studied. And you claim to me more knowledgeable - sounds pretty arrogant. May Allah forgive you and me for our arrogance.
quote:
If you will accept the Quran as your only religious source
The Quran is enough guidance for our salvation. However if we want to do more good, then the Quran orders us to do good - does not restrict us to only the things in the Quran. The Quran does not detail many things like salat, zakat, hajj; it does not say do medical research in genetics to save lives, it does not say make computers to increase production and make life easy for people. If you want to do all these 'good' things, then you need to follow other sources of knowledge which are good.
However I am not saying that these 'other' things are necessary for salvation - so no one should say that these other things are cumpulsory or part of religion. If someone makes a nafl act into a fard act, then the person is doing great zulm. If you tell me that the women must wear the burqa when they go out, then you are doing a zulm - you are making a non-cumpulsory act into a religious cumpulsory one even when it is not.
I am saying that these other good acts are optional and one should do them to increase their balance of good deeds for the hereafter. If you do not want to do them, it is your own loss, don't do them. But don't stop me from doing my late prayers because I missed them and would like to earn some extra reward from Allah. |
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sksamsherali
INDIA
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Posted - Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 9:37 AM
Salam brother Nauman,
Quote-1:- So according to you Angels are made of fire too. I am saying this because Quran clearly says that Jinn are made of fire. I would like you to comment on that.
Reply:- Why brother you are asking the same question again & again? Did you not understand my simple words? I told you several times that what angels are made of, is not the deciding factor here, the deciding factor is that God tells us that Satan was an angel and then became a jinn. IF HE WAS NOT AN ANGEL THEN THE COMMAND TO PROSTRATE GIVEN TO THE ANGELS BY GOD WOULD NOT APPLY TO HIM. In 18:50 and also in other verses of the Quran, God says that He ordered to the Angels (not the mixed group of creatures Angels & Jinns as you claimed in your other post) to prostrate before Adam. Also if you read 7:12, you can also see in it that God clearly says He ordered Iblees to prostrate before Adam. So brother, Iblees was an Angel whether you accept it or not.
Whatever may be, how could you know that Angels were not made of Fire? Could you please tell me from which things, Angels were made? Please give me reference from the Quran in support of your opinion.
Quote-2:- (2) Please clarify another point also. According to your understanding the events took place in the following manner:
1. God made Adam.
2. Then God asked angels to prostrate.
3. All angels did except Iblis.
4. God converted Iblis into Jinn as a punishment.
5. After punishing him God asked him why he did not prostrate. He said he was better than Adam because he was made of fire.
6. Then additional punishment imposed on him and Iblis was expelled from Heaven above.
Reply:- If you can understand my above reply, then I am sure you will definitely be understood what should be the reply to your second quote mentioned above. Brother, the sequence of your quote should be as follows;
1. God made Adam.
2. Then God asked angels to prostrate.
3. All angels did except Iblis.
4. God asked him why he did not prostrate. He said he was better than Adam because he was made of fire.
5. Iblees became a Jinn.
6. Iblees duped them(Adam and his wife) and caused their eviction from Paradise and then both of them expelled from paradise.
Peace.
Samsher Ali. |
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oosman
USA
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Posted - Wednesday, June 28, 2006 - 4:53 PM
| Can angels say no to Allah's commands? |
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