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raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Topic initiated on Monday, March 26, 2007  -  7:03 AM Reply with quote
it is common for husbands to beat their wives.


FRANKFURT, March 22 — A German judge has stirred a storm of protest by citing the Koran in turning down a German Muslim woman’s request for a speedy divorce on the ground that her husband beat her.

In a ruling that underlines the tension between Muslim customs and European laws, the judge, Christa Datz-Winter, noted that the couple came from a Moroccan cultural milieu, in which it is common for husbands to beat their wives. The Koran, she wrote in her decision, sanctions such physical abuse.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/03/23/world/europe/23germany.html?_r=1&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fPeople%2fL%2fLandler%2c%20Mark&oref=slogin
llina

GERMANY
Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007  -  1:56 PM Reply with quote
Thank you for sharing and what do you think about it?
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Thursday, March 29, 2007  -  3:03 PM Reply with quote
do they really beat their wives ?

or, what would be our reaction if she was beaten by a non muslim?shall we remain cool and calm?
SPIDER

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Friday, April 06, 2007  -  10:27 PM Reply with quote
Asalamualaikum,

Beating the wife, it is an absurd concept and has nothing to do with Islam. Islam does not advocate the 'beating' of the wife. A divorce is not granted instantaneously, the grounds that are put forth to process a divorce in Islam are investigated thoroughly, this process does take time i.e witnesses, cross references etc.
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Friday, April 13, 2007  -  12:56 PM Reply with quote
quote:

Islam does not advocate the 'beating' of the wife.

Pickthal's Quran Translation

4:34. Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and SCOURGE them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.


Shakir's Quran Translation

4:34. Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.


Yusuf Ali's Quran Translation

4:34. Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) BEAT them; but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).

Quran Translation, Islam version 4.00 at www.yildun.com

[4.34] Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and BEAT them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

Every other translation use meaning of ‘Daraba’ here to ‘BEAT’. Pickthal means to ‘SCOURGE’.

If you mean or interpret otherwise then, it is absurd, whimful and wishful.
raushan

UNITED ARAB EMIRATES
Posted - Sunday, April 15, 2007  -  2:38 PM Reply with quote
quote:

quote:

Islam does not advocate the 'beating' of the wife.
Every other translation use meaning of ‘Daraba’ here to ‘BEAT’. Pickthal means to ‘SCOURGE’.

If you mean or interpret otherwise then, it is absurd, whimful and wishful.


“Men are the protectors and maintainers (in a proper and fair manner) of women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all).” (Qu’ran 4:34)



Notes:

The arabic word used for ‘ill-conduct/rebellion’ = nushooz


The arabic word used in noble verse 4:34 above is "idribuhunna", which is derived from "daraba" ,The word in Arabic means to "strike" or "hit". It inludes everything from a tap with a tooth-stick to what in English we call beating. If it is stated that so-and-so "hit" so-and-so without further description, it would be assumed to be a single blow and it could be of any magnitude. When the Prophet (sas) took a tiny stick and tapped one of the Muslims on the stomach to straighten the ranks in preparation for war, he "hit" him with this meaning. Contrast this to the English phrase: "beat them". The meaning is totally different. If you took a shoe lace and hit someone on the hand with it, you could properly say dharabtahu in Arabic but in English you could never say that you had "beaten" that person.




1 Does the Arabic word 'daraba' necessarily mean "violent or intense or repeated striking?


No, jurists routinely use the expression "daraba al-ma' `ala wajhihi" - lit. strike water upon the face, for someone accomplishing the first rukn of wudu' (washing the face).

Also in Arabic daraba al-ard "to strike the earth" - as in verse 4:94 {When you strike the earth in the cause of Allah} - means to travel, i.e. walking with a staff.

The Prophet (pbuh) also expressed astonishment at the cruelty of certain men when he said: "Could any of you beat his wife as he would beat a slave, and then lie with her in the evening ?" (Bukhari and Muslim).

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The crafty little anti-Islam page on domini.org states:
"The Qur'an states:

"Righteous women are therefore obedient, And those you fear may be rebellious (nushuz) admonish; banish them to their couches, and beat them."

"Some translators add the word lightly after 'beat them' in Q 4:34. Others like Mohammed Pickthall and Rodwell translate the word 'edrebouhon - beat them' as 'scourge them'. [...] But "a beating without causing injury" (agreed upon)

"So the man has the right to beat his rebellious wife as long as that beating is not like the whipping of the slave and will not result in injury."


Of course the above is false and tendentious but couched in the syrupy style typical of missionaries.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
The hadith in Muslim states that the Prophet (pbuh) in his Farewell Pilgrimage said: "Lo! My last recommendation to you is that you should TREAT WOMEN WELL. Truly they are your helpmates, and you have no right over them beyond that - EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY. If they do, then refuse to share their beds and hit them WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE . Then, if they obey you, do not show them hostility any longer. Lo! you have a right over your women and they have a right over you. Your right over your women is that they not allow whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house. While their right over them is that you treat them excellently in their garb and provision."


Note:


EXCEPT IF THEY COMMIT A MANIFEST INDECENCY = fahisha mubina (which means) : immorality that may lead to adultery

WITHOUT INDECENT VIOLENCE = fadribu hunna darban ghayra mubarrih

· Mubarrih = defined in al-Mawrid as "violent, intense, severe, acute, sharp, excruciating, tormenting, agonizing."

· Qatada said as narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (5:68): "Ghayr mubarrih means ghayr sha'in = not disgraceful/ outrageous/ obscene/ indecent [beating]."

· Muhammad Asad translates it over-figuratively as “not causing pain”


After this, whatever Muslim man derogates to the recommendation of the Prophet (pbuh) has violated his covenant with the Prophet and shall be called to account for it; and whoever of the non-Muslim men or women claims - even the Archbishop of Canterbury and his wife - that beating women is allowed in Islam, has belied the Divine witness invoked by the Prophet and shall be called to account for it in the Divine Court.


2 What is the evidence for saying that this 'striking' is in fact only supposed to be carried out with something small, like a miswak?
`Ata' said: "I asked Ibn `Abbas: 'What is the hitting that is ghayr al-mubarrih?' He replied: '[With] the siwak and the like'." Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (Dar al-Fikr reprint 5:68).

Al-Razi (3:222) mentions that as a rule (a) it must be a light beating and (b) the face must be avoided. He added that certain of the Shafi`i jurists said "a coiled scarf (mindil malfuf) or his hand may be used but not a whip nor a stick."


3 Where is the hadith found in which the Prophet (pbuh) said to a servant-girl who had been extremely late "If I were not afraid of Allah, I would hit you with this" referring to a miswak?
Ibn Sa`d in al-Tabaqat al-Kubra, Al-Tabarani in al-Mu`jam al-Kabir, Abu Ya`la in his Musnad, Abu Nu`aym in Hilyat al-Awliya' and al-Hakim in al-Mustadrak narrated from Umm Salama: "The Prophet (pbuh)was in my house and there was a siwak in his hand. He called for Wasifa [the servant-girl] to come to him or to her [i.e. to serve Umm Salama] but she tarried until anger was visible on his face. So Umm Salama went out to her and found her playing with an animal. She said to her: "You are playing while the Messenger of Allah is calling you?" She replied: "No, by the one who sent you with truth! I did not hear you." Whereupon the Prophet (pbuh) said: "Were it not for fear of exaction (qawad) on the Day of Resurrection, I should surely make you sore (la'awja`tuki) with this toothpick."

Al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir mentioned that al-Mundhiri and al-Haythami declared its chain of transmission good. Al-Suyuti graded the hadith "fair" (hasan) in al-Jami` al-Saghir. Al-Muttaqi cited it in Kanz al-`Ummal (#39820, 39821, 39829).


4 What is the exact meaning of 'nushuz'? It is translated as disobedience, but there seem to be others who think it means something more like 'ill-will' or 'hostility' or 'ill-treatment'.
It depends on context and how these terms are themselves understood by those who use them. Ill-treatment on the part of a wife to her husband, for example, is a bit different from ill-treatment on the part of a grocer to his customer.

Nushuz is translated "Recalcitrance, disobedience, violation of marital duties on the part of the wife" in al-Mawrid Ar-Eng Dictionary. Nushuz or "recalcitrance” is here an euphemism for adultery. The wife's primary marital duty is spelled out in the mass-transmitted hadith of the Farewell Pilgrimage (in Sahih Muslim) as "not allowing whom you hate to enter your bed nor your house." Al-Maziri also said that another interpretation of the words in that hadith said it referred to a woman sitting in seclusion with a stranger inside her husband's house. (In al-Nawawi, Sharh Sahih Muslim.)



5. Is it not true that slapping someone on the face is not allowed in Islam? Is there a consensus on this point?It is a transgression requiring exaction (qawad) which can be changed into monetary compensation (diyya) in the Four Schools, Allah knows best.

Examples:

(a) the famous hadith from Mu`awiya ibn al-Hakam in Sahih Muslim of the black woman slave whom her owner slaps and is then obligated to manumit as her compensation.

(b) Also in Sahih Muslim, the example of Suwayd ibn Muqarrin who saw a man slap his female slave and told him: "Do you not know that the face is taboo? (al-sura muharrama) I, whom you see in front of you, the seventh of my brothers, was with the Messenger of Allah and we only had one servant; one of us slapped him, so the Messenger of Allah commanded us to free him."

(c) "Whoever strikes his slave in the face or beats him unjustly, his expiation is to manumit him." Narrated from Ibn `Umar by Muslim in his Sahih.

(d) "If you fight your brother, avoid striking the face, for Allah created Adam in his image." Narrated from Abu Hurayra by Muslim and al-Bukhari, the latter without the words "your brother." If this is forbidden while fighting or when interacting with a slave, then a fortiori it is forbidden outside fighting and with one's wife.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Do not be misled by the Satanic whispers of domini.org which states:
"The occasion in which Q 4:34 was revealed sheds more light on the meaning of that verse. Most commentators mention that the above verse was revealed in connection with a woman who complained to Mohammad that her husband slapped her on the face (which was still marked by the slap). At first the Prophet said to her: 'Get even with him', but then added : 'Wait until I think about it.' Later on the above verse was revealed, after which the Prophet said: 'We wanted one thing but Allah wanted another, and what Allah wanted is best.' [Razi, At-tafsir al-Kabir, on Q. 4:34.]"


Crafty, crafty, and all for what? lies. Ars longa, vita brevis!
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The commentators also mention that this report is narrated only from al-Hasan al-Basri who is NOT a Companion. The most that can be said of it here is that it is a weak, isolated, mursal Tabi`i report that does not have probative force.


What is more, al-Hasan himself flatly contradicts the above as he reportedly explained {wadribu hunna} to mean: "hitting that is not obscene; hitting that does not leave a trace (darban ghayra mubarrih ghayra mu'aththir). Narrated by al-Tabari in his Tafsir (Dar al-Fikr reprint 5:68).


6 Has the phrase 'wadribuhunna' in 4:34 normally been interpreted as a command or has it been interpreted as more of a recommendation?
It is not generally permitted to hit one's wife, and the overwhelming instances of hitting that take place in marriages are not only haram but also entail abuse, wrongdoing (dhulm), and a turning away from the example of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him), who often instructed his companions not to hit their wives, and who said, when he heard about men who hit their wives, "The best of you are the best to your spouses, and I am the best of you to their spouse." The wives of the Prophet, including A'isha (Allah be pleased with her), relate that he never hit any of his wives.


Narrated Mu'awiyah al-Qushayri: "I went to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) and asked him: What do you say (command) about our wives? He replied: Give them food what you have for yourself, and clothe them by which you clothe yourself, and do not beat them, and do not revile them. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2139)"


Narrated Mu'awiyah ibn Haydah: "I said: Apostle of Allah, how should we approach our wives and how should we leave them? He replied: Approach your tilth when or how you will, give her (your wife) food when you take food, clothe when you clothe yourself, do not revile her face, and do not beat her. (Sunan Abu-Dawud, Book 11, Marriage (Kitab Al-Nikah), Number 2138)"


But what about the Qur'anic Verse?


Yes, the Qur'anic verse [4.34] does give permission to hit. But, as Imam Tahawi mentions in Mushkil al-Athar [3.341-345], this is understood--when considered with the texts interdicting and discouraging hitting--to refer to hitting that is within limits, when the situation calls for it (in the case of nushuz mentioned by the prophet in his last speech).


Sultan al-Ulama Izz Ibn Abd al-Salam is quoted by a number of authorities, including Ibn Allan al-Bakri in his Sharh Riyad al-Salihin, as mentioning that the "hitting" that is conditionally permitted is only permitted when one is reasonably sure that there will be general benefit in it (and this benefit is greater than the associated harms).

Given the changes in societies, cultures, and human dynamics, as well as most people acting with ignorance and emotion rather than doing so according to the dictates of Revelation and reason, this would entail that the general ruling is impermissibility, except when it is in fact: (a) within limits; (b) done when the benefit is greater than the harm--for in such cases it will be an acceptance of lesser harm to avoid greater harm.

At the level of healthy marital relations, the Qur'an commanded us to live together with excellence, to be good to each other, to communicate and consult in positive ways, and for the underlying impetus in marital dealings to be love and mercy. The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) gave us a living commentary on how to do this, in his beautiful and exemplary marriage life.

http://www.authenticsunnah.com/karim/noble_quran_4_34.htm

Edited by: raushan on Sunday, April 15, 2007 2:44 PM
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, April 15, 2007  -  5:24 PM Reply with quote
Every translation use meaning of ‘Daraba’ here to ‘BEAT’. Pickthal means to ‘SCOURGE’.

If you mean or interpret otherwise then, it is absurd, whimful and wishful.

So, we do not agree with you, raushan!
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Sunday, April 15, 2007  -  5:42 PM Reply with quote
quote:

The Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) gave us a living commentary on how to do this, in his beautiful and exemplary marriage life.

Had any of the wives of the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings be upon him) given any chance for the resort of beating, like he NEVER divorced any of his wives while the commandments of divorce are very CLEAR in the book of Allah???
hkhan

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Monday, April 16, 2007  -  9:29 PM Reply with quote
welcome to the forums Dalmir

an imp topic indeed

we ought to keep in mind that we cannot go along literal meanings from Qur'an always. it is utmost important to keep in mind the 'text' and the 'context' camels and horses are mentioned in Qur'an for the days when it was being revealed. however it does not mean its verses are not applicable to the journey on cars and aeroplanes.
similarly 'beating' can be altered with holding pocket money, limiting makeup shopping:), cancelling holiday trips, not sharing debit/credit cards etc --all of which could be worse than beating in the changing cultures--secially when you are living in a society where a man can actually end up in prison because of beating wife.
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, April 17, 2007  -  5:06 PM Reply with quote
Every translation use meaning of ‘Daraba’ here to ‘BEAT’. Pickthal means to ‘SCOURGE’.

If you mean or interpret otherwise then, it is absurd, whimful and wishful.

So, we do not agree with you, hkhan!
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Tuesday, April 17, 2007  -  5:08 PM Reply with quote
quote:

welcome to the forums Dalmir

Thanks a lot!
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 18, 2007  -  3:32 PM Reply with quote
AOA

Problems with Quran are caused by mistranslations, sometimes with best intentions (but incorrect interpertation) & sometimes deliberately (but subtely-to damage Islam whilst pretending to be sympathetic).

The Question is:

quote:

Every translation use meaning of ‘Daraba’ here to ‘BEAT’. Pickthal means to ‘SCOURGE’.

If you mean or interpret otherwise then, it is absurd, whimful and wishful.


Before tackling the word 'Daraba'

Bear this in mind from the Quran:
39:18
"The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the BEST of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence."

Then consider some of the verses from the Quran:
14:24
"Have you not seen how God puts forth (Daraba) the example of a good word is like a good tree, whose root is firm and its branches in the sky."



2:273
"For the poor who face hardship in the cause of God, they cannot go forth (Darban) in the land; the ignorant ones think they are rich from their modesty; you know them by their features, they do not ask the people repeatedly. And what you spend out of goodness, God is fully aware of it."



Daraba (in its natural state) means: `to put forth`
AND

The approach of choosing the `best` understanding and/or meaning is both logical and, more importantly, in-line with the guidance for study we are given by God:

So:

4:34
"The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall 1) advise them, and 2) abandon them in the bedchamber, and 3) "Idribuhun" let them go forth; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great."


Dear Henna

quote:

we cannot go along literal meanings from Qur'an always


I am afraid a very dangerous statement to make for it means we can ignore the Quran when the supposed meaning makes us feel uncortable.
I am sure what you meant to say was that it is important to underand the correct Meaning of what is written in the Quran no matter what the so called expert/scholars may say.

regards
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Wednesday, April 18, 2007  -  5:18 PM Reply with quote
perv 1, Plz learn first Arabic then try to comment. same word has different meanings at different sites.
perv1

UNITED KINGDOM
Posted - Wednesday, April 18, 2007  -  11:21 PM Reply with quote
Dalmir
LIVE
(1) You live in India
(2) India v Pakistan will be live on television.

Learn few basic facts about languages regardless of Arabic, English Hindi etc.
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  5:18 PM Reply with quote
quote:

4:34
"The men are to support the women by what God has gifted them over one another and for what they spend of their money. The upright women who are attentive, and keep private the personal matters for what God keeps watch over. As for those women from whom you fear a desertion, then you shall 1) advise them, and 2) abandon them in the bedchamber, and 3) "Idribuhun" let them go forth; if they obey you, then do not seek a way over them; God is High, Great.”



The SELF DONE translation is WRONG, WHIMFUL, and WISHFUL!!!

Edited by: Dalmir on Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:17 PM

Edited by: Dalmir on Thursday, April 19, 2007 6:21 PM
Dalmir

INDIA
Posted - Thursday, April 19, 2007  -  5:19 PM Reply with quote
quote:

we ought to keep in mind that we cannot go along literal meanings from Qur'an always.

You are well WRONG!!!
quote:

similarly 'beating' can be altered with holding pocket money, limiting makeup shopping:), cancelling holiday trips, not sharing debit/credit cards etc --all of which could be worse than beating in the changing cultures--

You are again WRONG!!!
quote:

--all of which could be worse than beating in the changing cultures--secially when you are living in a society where a man can actually end up in prison because of beating wife.

According to your mis-information, ‘How many men are imprisoned in charge of beating their wives and how many women are imprisoned in charge of KILLING their husbands, in the world?’

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